101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

In multi games many people are playing death 10 pretenders. Why people choose death 10 for Ashen Empire / Sould Gate Ermor?
Any why the start with 10D for other nations? And why give death10 to a FoB?
Please reply if you are a 10D player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks!

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

I am not a D10 player but the reason seems rather clear: D10 gives a very nice fear for all blessed troops. When playing nation with cheap sacreds (flagellants?) mass them all together and as their effect is cumulative watch as indies, or normal armies, flee before taking a single hit. Helps initial expansion massively for some nations. Also, D10 can be very useful later in the game as many death summons give more troops for higher level caster, making your pretender essentially into a very efficient undead factory.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Reasons I can see:

- Improved Fear Aura on sacred troops and pretender, IIRC the Fear Aura gets bigger at +5, +10, +15 etc. so having a multiple of 5 can be seen as a step towards optimizing the Fear effect

- Turning expensive living mages to undead to save on upkeep costs

- Better bang for your bucks on some reanimations/conjurations (eg, Summon Ghosts)

- Lowered resistance of targets for resistable rituals (eg, Leprosy) or battlefield spells (eg, Terror), or increased damage (eg, Cloud of Death)

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Isnt there also some nasty global spells for 10d?

For anyone with cheap sacreds that they tend to use as sword fodder, that "death curse" isnt a bad add-on also.

Im not so much for maxing an single field as in doing combos. There is a playable strategy for maxing all the bad scales and taking more blessings. Not a total ultimate strategy and not easy to play but a fun one to consider. You can get all 4's and one or two 9's from it.

[ March 27, 2004, 14:57: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

IIRC Utterdark is the only 9D spell, and there is no 8 or 10 D spell. Bone Grinding, Tartarian Gate and Undead Mastery are 7. I think there is no 10th level spell in the game at all.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I was going to make a poll about this actually, but my connection is too slow and it was too annoying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, how many people actually take high blessings for MP games? I've not really seen anyone doing it. Though there are several reasons for it... national sacred troops are poor (too expensive, whatever...), need points for other scales, etc...

I personally enjoy the blessings, but I can't see using them in a serious MP game. Perhaps for some nations, but overall... They just don't seem worth the opportunity cost.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Its rather a specialized tactic. It either works really REALLY well in an MP game as a surprise, or it fails miserably and early.

But I have a number of such variations in my bag of tricks. Having a favorite nation with a favorite strategy that does well in MP games is kindof a baseline. Everyone should have that. But if everyones baseline is too average then the game is just a really long juggling for position. In a game with many people playing their middle-of-the-road strategys, an extreme strategy has a chance to shake things up.

--
If you cant beat 'em, then join 'em.
If you cant beat em or join em,
then at least try to surprise them.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Catastrophic scales, minimal dominion (1-3), expand in front of your dominion, and just keep rolling while your ultra-powerful Pretender goes on a conquest spree and your sacred mass-blessed troops carve out a realm of glory for you?

Then you will probably want the ability to rapidly build a fortress near your ever expanding frontlines, which means the 40 point Mausoleum.

That should leave you enough points for THREE level 9 blessings and a single 4 on a Naga Chassis, or two level 9 blessings and 4 on the rest. Could be brutal.

I have got to try that one out one day - sounds fun.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Mictlan is the one nation that really needs to use (a) blessing(s), especially in MP. It probably can work for some others, like Niefelheim and Last of the Tuatha.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

[quote]Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

Quote:

That should leave you enough points for THREE level 9 blessings and a single 4 on a Naga Chassis, or two level 9 blessings and 4 on the rest. Could be brutal. I have got to try that one out one day - sounds fun.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You laid out the strategy perfectly. ALso keep in mind the nations where some of the catastrophic scales are of no conern for them or even beneficial.

When I first tried it I expected my home capital to fall quickly under the burden of horrible events but was surprised to find that not much happened to me for quite a long time. Well, more happened but not nearly as balancingly horrible as I expected for all the gain.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Having 10 in one path means the combat spells also cost 1/9 the fatigue. Powerful combat spells which had very high fatigue costs can become castable every combat turn. You can also add some bonus items to get your power up even farther.

PvK

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err, looks like you're miscalculating the spellcasting fatigue.

The fatigue is only divided by the amount your skill EXCEEDS the requirements (+1). That is, with Death 10, you will have 1/9 the fatigue of Death 1 spells, but you will have 1/2 the fatigue of any Death 9 spell.

As an example, Master Enslave (Astral 9, 800 Fatigue) is virtually uncastable by a lone mage. Without additional gems to lower the fatigue, you'd have to have Astral 12 (3 additional levels) to cast it at 1/4 the cost, which makes it 200 fatigue - so for the mage to cast it alone, I believe you need Astral 13. A good number of Communion Slaves will lower the requirements, though you may well end up killing the slaves.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An astral 8 mage can quite easily cast master enslave if given enough gems, as 1 is used to boost him to astral 9, then he still can use 7 more to reduce fatigue to the castable point.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Thanks PhilD. I knew that, but didn't convey it in what I wrote. Still, the more skill, the less the fatigue, which can be allow you to cast many of the more powerful combat spells, which would otherwise take all your fatigue to cast and/or gems, etc.

PvK

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An astral 8 mage can quite easily cast master enslave if given enough gems, as 1 is used to boost him to astral 9, then he still can use 7 more to reduce fatigue to the castable point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right - I keep forgetting that you can use additional gems (up to the skill level, right?) to reduce the fatigue.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Um, Phil, not to nitpick, but if you have Magic Level 10 in anything and cast a level 1 req spell, you get 1/10th the fatigue, not 1/9th.

It's (according to everything you can get your hands on, including your own formula! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

1/[(Your Level-Req Level)+1]

Or, in this case:

1/[(10-1)+1]

Or 0.1. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just a point.

Wyatt

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Getting back to the original topic... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I tend to take a Death-10 Pretender when I play C'tis. Note that I still only have the demo, but the ability to rout entire armies with Terror cannot be underestimated. With a Saurolich or Prince of Death, C'tis can use this to take many provinces early. I generally play on lower Indep. Strength, so this might fall into the equation somewhere, but OTOH, you have a greater chance of hitting something with the Terror.

Please note: I generally do _not_ take Death-10 if I'm playing for a Bless strategy. With the Serpent Dancers, Air is almost essential, and you can combine it with either Fire or Water (Fire is easier, with the Phoenix) for a really brutal combination.

I was hoping that Death-9 might turn the Sacred Serpents into Tomb Wyrms, but it doesn't seem to, which I find distinctly odd. Ah well.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think death-10 doesn't give you any benefit over death-9 for casting Terror.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't see why it wouldn't, since the area of effect should continue to increase.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't see why it wouldn't, since the area of effect should continue to increase. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's the penetration that matter the most. You need death-11 to get +1 penetration over death-9 when casting Terror.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's no MR check for terror, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. There might be a morale check involved, but that would be something completely separate from the penetration bonus that affects MR.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, you're right. And since I'm such a frequent nitpicker, it's hard for me to complain here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doh! You're right. I've assumed there was one for ages, considering how easy it is to rout things with high death magic. I've always had the impression that a death-9 PoD casting Terror was more effective than 4 Sauromancers, while the latter cover a larger area and should trigger more morale checks.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Catastrophic scales, minimal dominion (1-3), expand in front of your dominion, and just keep rolling while your ultra-powerful Pretender goes on a conquest spree and your sacred mass-blessed troops carve out a realm of glory for you?

Then you will probably want the ability to rapidly build a fortress near your ever expanding frontlines, which means the 40 point Mausoleum.

That should leave you enough points for THREE level 9 blessings and a single 4 on a Naga Chassis, or two level 9 blessings and 4 on the rest. Could be brutal.

I have got to try that one out one day - sounds fun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It could be fun, but I don't see how you will mass sacred troops with such a low dominion...

A dominion of 3 would let you recruit only 3 per turn (assuming they are capitol only...) until you get enough temples built, and that's not so cheap now is it with your massively negative scales.

I dunno, it's cute, but effective? Well I'd have to see it to believe it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It would seem as though death9 (or 10) is perhaps a useful investment of points, but 3 9s... well outside of certain nations (Ermor) I can't see it as a competitive alternative to a less focused blessing strat.

I do understand the 'fun factor' though, but I'm not concerned about the 'fun factor' right now, I'm more interested in successful high bless strats for competative MP games. Or failing that, just how many people would actually want to try a high bless strat for reasons other than surprise.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There seems to be a -5 mrl check independent of casters lvl.

Panic -3.

Thus panic (greater area) is better vs hordes of regular troops and terror better vs elites.

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

Several nations have expensive and strong holy units that you can only afford 2-3 per turn anyway at first. I could see some of them being quite tough units with a bunch of blessings on them.

Jotunheim, Vanheim, Ulm, Man, Machaka, Marignon, etc. have powerful units that even if only built a few per turn, stacked with blessings, can be very strong.

PvK

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, having read this Last night, I tried Ctis basic Last night with a Golden Naga Pretender. Basically had all scales -3 (though the Heat was only an effective -2) and had Fire 9, Air 8, Water 9. Granted, this is only the 2.02 demo, but...

it was absolutely disgusting. I played on Aran, and I think I may have lost a grand total of 10 Serpent Dancers all game. When you combine that with a Lizard King prophet who got Heroic Quickness... it was pretty scary.

As a note for the Luck thread, one of the first events I got in the game was the one that gives you a Hill Fortress (which was better than the one I started with). I had 3 Turmoil, 3 Misfortune, so you can guess how many lucky stars I was thanking. Again, old scales, but that's even worse, I think.

Oh, and regarding Dominion, I think I had taken a 7 Dominion. This was actually a mistake, because until I took a couple of Provinces, I could only afford to get 6 Dancers a turn.

Anyway, just my experience with it.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: 101 uses of Death 10 pretender
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Under such a strategy, you do not want to build many temples, not at all. The more temples you build, the more you harm your core strategy.

As I see it (remember, this is all based on projections, as I have not actually played such a strategy yet) a vital ingredient to the low dominion approach will appear to be to play either a nation with extremely tough (but capital only) sacred troops [Black Hunters, Niefel Giants) - where you are unlikely to be able to recruit more than a few anyhow, OR to play a nation where you can recruit the sacred troops in each fortress. (And remember that sacred commanders may do instead of sacred troops. I shudder to think of a an army of four or five Last of the Tuatha Sidhe or Vanheim Vans with two or three L9 blessings...)

All things considered, Marignon comes to mind as probably the ultimate candidate for this strategy with BOTH cheap sacreds available in all fortresses AND tough sacreds available in the capital AND strong sacred mage/priests.