Man - Pretender template request
 

Hello everyone!

I am brand new to Dominions II and I am loving it so far. I have experimented with several nations and several games, but still have a long way to go to understand the strategies and nuances of the game.

As a long time player of SMAC/X and HoMM3, I can already tell that this one will grab me the same way those two games did.

You have a wonderful forum here and I must admit that my head is spinning with all the information contained in these threads.

I do have one request. I have read and/or skimmed through the threads (and the search functions) and haven't been able to find a basic Man pretender template (I'm sure it's there, but I probably overlooked it).

My most daunting task in playing this game, at the moment, is in pretender creation.

What I would like to do is play through a game with a viable Man pretender template (as opposed to making fairly clueless pretender/magic/scale choices on my own) to get a feel for the flavor of the game with a non-gimped pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I see a lot of references to the Last of the Tuatha, but no specific pretender builds that would compliment that.

I understand completely that all choices can be personal preference and each choice effects gameplay. However, if anyone would be so kind as to offer up a very specific pretender build for Man, I would be very grateful.

Thanks!

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

I play Man alot and should be able to help you but to be truthful when I play Man Im usually in a mood to just not be so extreme. I tend to make "myself" as a pretender using the mounted or walking druid, maybe the great sage. Often a "rainbow" pretender meaning I get 2 or 3 in as many magics as possible in order to use him for research, making equip, and searching for sites. If I have to cut back I cut back on nature and air first since I can recruit mages to do those.

For an example of a nice god writeup for Man from Dominions 1 (which should still work for default Man) you can look here....
http://web.archive.org/web/200302100.../gods/Man.html

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

If you want more of a research/site-searching/summoning style pretender, Gandalf's suggestion of the Arch Druid (the mounted one) is a very good one.

Bless effects are very viable for Man, given that they have an abundance of reasonably-priced sacred units...especially the Last of the Tuatha theme. So the bless effect is definitely something to consider when making a Mannish pretender.

My current favorite pretender builds for Man are:

A Blue Dragon with Water 9 (the bless effects give quickness and increased defense to all blessed units). The Dragons are also excellent supercombatants - they can eat up indie provinces all by themselves in friendly domain...and the Blue Dragon is especially good at this with just a tiny bit of research in Alteration and Enchantment (script your Dragon to Cast Quickness, Cast Breath of Winter, Attack Rearmost...and watch him munch indies like Cheetos).

You will notice if you choose a Dragon for a pretender that he starts out in human form. Don't be alarmed, check his orders for a "Change Shape" command, which works instantaneously.

Seconly, I like a Virtue with Air 9 (that 80% Air Shield blessing renders your longbowmen able to fire at will into the midst of your sacred troops without fear of friendly fire, and the shock resistance will come in handy when you start summoning up Spring Hawks and such).

Both of these work well regardless of which Man theme you're playing, but you *really* notice the punch (especially of Air 9) if you're playing Last of the Tuatha, given the fantastic sacred units in that theme.

There are about as many different suggestions, though, as there are angels on the head of a pin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so I'm sure someone else will have equally good or better ideas for you.

Also, if you're playing "vanilla" Man, you might consider taking Water Cult as a special theme, if you can spare the design points. They have a lot of sacred units and thus can take full advantage of Water Cult's flexibility.

[ March 27, 2004, 20:07: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you Gandalf and fahdiz! This is exactly what I was looking for. I think I might try out Gandalf's Arch Druid idea tonight. I find myself drawn to research and site searching side of the game.

fahdiz, I am very intrigued by your two builds, too. I will certainly try out the dragon very soon.

However, I do have some specific questions about your Virtue build (this is the one I think I want to dig into a little more deeply).

For your Virtue build:

- How do you balance your scales? Obviously, I have the 1 Magic and 1 Luck to get Last of the Tuatha, but I'm curious how you set the rest of your scales. Do you take some Turmoil to pick up some Productivity? Do you adjust any of the other scales?

- Do pick up any other magic path?

- How high do you take your Dominion strength?

- What kind of fortress do you like?

Thanks!

[ March 27, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: Amerasu ]

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

Does the Great Enchantress still generator an astral pearl every turn? That would be nice.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You almost never want Turmoil. You take a fairly large hit to Income if you do.

For scales maybe Order 1, Dominion 6, and a Castle. Or Order 2 and a 40 point fortress could work. You really can't afford another path of magic.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I'm recalling correctly (I have problems with that sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) what Yossar has suggested below is almost exactly what I do - Order 1, Dominion 6, and a Castle, or Order 1, Productivity 1, and a 40-pointer. I find myself drawn to the Mausoleum because the Last of the Tuatha theme doesn't run into supply problems as often as other nations (similarly to Pangaea, because Nature mages get supply bonuses) - but if I feel like I'm going to get sieged frequently I'll take the Castle instead, and forego the extra Productivity.

I agree with Yossar - Turmoil makes things difficult economically, so I tend to avoid it like the plague unless I'm playing a nation where income is not an issue (Ashen Empire or Soul Gate Ermor, for instance). And if I have to take Turmoil (such as with both of the T'ien Ch'i additional themes) I always take the same amount of Luck so that I can at least turn those extra events into better ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And I end up never being able to take another path of magic, because new paths for the Virtue cost 80 points. Ouch.

I don't know with what indie strength you usually play, but Last of the Tuatha with an Air 9 blessing can easily take out most indie-6 provinces in the very early game, often completely without casualties. Try this: using a Sidhe Champion or Sidhe Lord (both of whom can command 50 units to start), give him three squads - 10 Daoine Sidhe, 20 Longbowmen, and 20 Longbowmen. Take the two squads of Longbowmen and put one on each side of and slightly behind the group of Daoine Sidhe. Set both squads of Longbowmen to "Fire Closest" or "Fire Archers" (Fire Archers is nice because there's always the chance you'll hit the enemy commanders too), and set the squad of Daoine Sidhe to "Hold and Attack Closest".

While the Daoine Sidhe are holding, they'll get blessed by the Champion/Lord, and pick up that Air Shield. Meanwhile, your Longbowmen will rain death on the indies as they come at you. Then if the indies haven't routed yet, they'll run right into those tough Daoine Sidhe, who will protect your archers just long enough to get the indies to rout.

[ March 27, 2004, 23:29: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

Because the Tuatha are supposed to be somewhat ancient, benevolent, magical Elves, i like taking 3-Luck 3-Magic and 3-Sloth, Dominion 6 and like everyone else, the 9 Air Virtue Pretender. Oh and i think the castle.

You need luck and magic together. By turn 30 i recieved two 1500 free gold events, at least five free items, and dozens of lesser gems, smaller sums of gold, free units and other goodies. Suprisingly Luck 3/Magic 3 is noticably better than Luck 2/Magic 2 - i don't think you can receive the 1500 event otherwise.

Sloth is acceptable because you don't really need to make any non-Cidhe melee units. Longbowmen cost only 6 resources, and are a perfect compliment to Air-9 blessed Daoine Cidhe that already are hard to hit with glamour. Anyway basic human troops are crap - why make more of a bad thing?

[ March 28, 2004, 00:16: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

This is great!

Thanks for the latest replies fahdiz, Yossar and SelfishGene. Your Posts have been very informative. I feel the wheels starting to slowly turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Never being one to have only one game going at a time, and having a hard time narrowing down all the choices in this amazing game, I am going to try the Druid, the Virtue and the Blue Dragon in seperate games.

Therefore, I do have one more question pertaining to the Blue Dragon build. If I take him to Water 9, Magic 1, Luck 1, Productivity 1 and Dominion 6, I only have 1 point left. Do you sacrifice Productivity to get the Mausoleum or keep Productivity and go with the Watchtower? Or do you tweak him a little differently.

I know these are all very basic questions, but I really appreciate you all being so kind to help me out.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

i'd definitely take order over production. money is more valuable than resources most of the time. you might be able to get away with a watchtower but i'd go for the mausoleum.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

Oops, my mistake Yossar! I don't know why I'm hung up on Productivity today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, for the Blue Dragon, I have 9 Water, 1 Order (it will sink in eventually, I hope) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , 1 Magic, 1 Luck, 6 Dominion. With that build, the Watchtower is the only choice. Would you cut back on Order to get the Mausoleum or keep Order and live with the Watchtower?

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Knights aren't crap - in fact they're quite useful - and they're fairly resource-costly as well. I guess it boils down to personal taste/style - later in the game, when Man's sacred troops aren't as effective as they are early on, it's awfully nice to supplement them with some heavy, heavy cav. So while I don't always take extra Prod, the lowest I'll go is balanced scales. I don't ever take Sloth for Tuatha.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How many points do you have left over if you drop down to Dominion 5? If you can do that and afford the Mausoleum, I'd go for it. You'll just have to remember that with a lower dominion you'll need to be a little more aggressive and push outside of your own dominion just a little bit more.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well overall the build isn't bad but you may want to consider something.

Forts 'gather' resources from neighboring provinces, while the Productivity scale increases your gross total. See the problem? Your paying to increasing production, than choosing the absolute worst fort possible to use that production.

Personally, with that Pretender in mind, (and unless you had some sort of other strategy in mind that needed cheap forts) i would chunk the Productivity, bump the Dominion down to 5, and purchase the 60 pt. Fortress instead. But thats just me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He already said a couple of Posts ago that he meant Order 1, not Prod 1.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

I gotta disagree with the idea of giving your Man pretender a lot of Air. Frankly I think it's a waste of points when you can forge yourself a Staff of Storms or research to Arrow Fend pretty easily.

I also think Water 9 is nice but not the best idea. Now if you could take Water 9 *and* Air 9 that would be pretty nice, but either one on their own is, IMHO, not the best blessing you can get.

[BTW I am thinking Last of Tuatha here, not so much regular Man]

The great weakness of the Daoine Sidhe is that they fight with spears, which have a very hard time getting through thick armour. IMHO that is the biggest need for a bless effect - greater strength.

However, Blood isn't a great match for Man, so I usually go for Nature (berserk gives +str). That way if the Sidhe are hit they become more dangerous, rather than simply getting killed rather quickly.

Regular Man is a different story - those greatswords have no problem cutting through thick armour just as they are.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

Thanks again for all the responses!

st.patrik, I am curious how you would build your Man pretender. I realize there are many different permutations, but for a newbie how would you set up your recommended, basic Man pretender?

-How high would you take Nature and do you take a second school?
-How much Dominion?
-How would you balance your scales?

Again, I am asking this from the perspective of a complete newbie, but I really want to dive into the game with some proven pretender builds to get the game flow. I'll experiment with pretender builds when I'm more comfortable with the game itself.

Thanks for anything you can share.

[ March 29, 2004, 16:20: Message edited by: Amerasu ]

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you usually choose the Divine Serpent, then?

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

Other than using bless effect, there is another approach for (mainly) regular Man, which is to use a cheap physical pretender, e.g. Wyrm or a Green Dragon supported by "Personal Regeneration". The pretender can lead a lot of Longbows when it soaks up the damage. Your expansion will be super-fast. With better resource and larger territory, you can afford a crone every turn.

One thing noticeable of Nature path is its good summonned mages. Lamia Queen allows you expanding into Death and Astral. Couatls are very good astral mages. There are also some very common nature sites that give your elemental mages. So, even with a magically poor pretender, your diversity in late game would still be quite impressive. The Warden will not have any good bless effects neither but they are still very good stealthy heavy infantry.

Re: Man - Pretender template request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, Air just isn't worth it. You Sidhe commanders can cast Air Shield and Resist Lightning. Storms and Arrow Fend can effectively shut missiles down, but even without them IMHO missiles just aren't that much of a threat, and are easily distracted.

I'm not sure I agree that blood or nature blessings are better than water however. I'm curious, have you tried these approaches out, or are you hypothesizing?

[ March 29, 2004, 22:14: Message edited by: Jasper ]