Magic sites questions
 

Ok, question for Dom2 veterans: Does anybody know the exact terrain modifiers for magic sites and how do they work?

I know that land types such as Mountains, Forest, Waste, Swamp increase chance of finding magic sites in the province, with Mountains being the largest modifier.

I also know that Farmland decrease that chance, and Plains have no modifiers.

So let's say that we are playing on magic 50 setings. If I understand numbers correctly that means that "Plains" province have 50% chance of
having magic site in each of it's possible 4 slots, correct?

Now does anybody know how much Mountains and each other "good" land types add to this 50% chance?

Also what are the calculations if there are more than one terrain type present? Do they add? Multiply? (Like in case of Mountain/Forest/Farmland province for example)

Finally what about sea provinces? Do they have magic site frequency same as Plains?

Usually I cast 8 water gems underwater spell on each of my water provinces as soon as I can, but should I also cast all non-elemental type of search spells, looking for nature, death, astral, blood? Obviosly there are different names for the magic sites on the survace and underwater, but is overall effect still the same? Or do sea provinces tend to have more water-producing sites but less nature (or other types) producing sites?

And Last question - I think it is possible for province to contain more than 4 different sites, I've seen it now and than. Does it only happen due to random event (like with random event that gives you new Mine site for example, or Earth Caves, etc.)? Or "magic level 0 sites" (the one that you detect automaticallly when you conquer the province - like Library, Arena, etc.) do not count toward "max 4 sites per province" limit. Or both?

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm... I'm not very clear on this myself, but I here is what I know:

-Certain magic sites only accur on certian terrians, like 'Forest of the Dead' in forests.

-Amazons are also terrian dependant, though for some reason crystal amazons are extremely rare despite being tied to plains.

-I have never seen a blood site underwater, though I think all other searches can uncover sites underwater.

-Libraries, arenas and such cout toward the four sites.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct though there can be map modifiers (with the .map commands).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alot? I'd say a good average is 3/4 of the slots are filled. Though I have no hard #'s, if JO or KO feel the need they may post the %.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From my using the commands it only adds a certain terrain type to the seed for possible magical site types. I haven't seen any more frequent Magic Sites in a terrain labeled Forest/Mountain. Though it could reasonably be a seperate % based on each terrain type.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can have nature, astral, death and blood underwater, they just have a different set of seeded magical sites.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1 Fort, 1 Lab, 1 Temple, 4 Magical Sites (everything else that doesn't fit those).

[ April 03, 2004, 00:13: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Magic sites questions
 

[quote]Originally posted by Zen:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see. Without hard numbers, do you by any chance know if Forest is better than Waste/Swamp for finding magic sites? And is it correct that Mountains give you best modifier for finding magic sites? And what about sea provinces - are they the same as "Plains" as far as magic sites frequency is concerned (0 modifier)?



<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Anybody else have some info on it? I always tried to search mountain/forest provinces first when I had the choice, beacuse I assumed that positive modifiers somehow add to each other. But I have no idea if it is really the case.

And what about let's say Mountain/Farmland province? Is it better than Plains or worse for magic searching?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But what sites does not fit "4 magical sites" criteria? Any site that doesn't ptoduce magic gems? Sites that comes from random events? Some "level 0" sites found automatically like Arena?

[ April 03, 2004, 02:12: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mountains have the best chance for magical sites. The types you most often find are Earth though. The best place to find Nature sites is Forest, best place to find Fire sites is Barrens, Water sites Swamps along with Death.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Definitely better, 3/4 of the slots as I said before.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anything that is not a Lab, Fortress, or Temple is a Magical Site. Arena, Library, Clam Field, Copper Mine, etc.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

Excellent, thank you. That answers almost all my questions.

Now if I only could lure a developer here here to give us some cold hard numbers on these land types modifiers... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <looking around>


And I still want to know if multiply modifiers affect each other. If I understood your correctly you have said that you don't think so but that you are not sure. Anybody else can comment on this one?

P.S. Just to clariy - you feel that because Forest lands are better for Nature, Barrens (meaning Waste?) better for for Fire and Water/Death for Swamp, those land-types should be first one to be seached for these elements, even if there are Mountains (which gives you the best _general_ modifier) available, correct? And what about sea province? Are they the same as Plains in both magic site frequency (0 modifier) and no preferable element type? (the obvious pereferable element for the sea provinces would be water of course, but I don't seem to be fiding that many water sites in the ocean in my games.)

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on what nation you are and what abilities you have availiable along with gem usage. But assuming you have everything availiable except a Acashic Record, I'd probably do it based on need. If I needed or wanted to search a particular province for a specific type. I'd search for whatever was my priority based on Terrain type. So if I was looking for Nature gems, I'd use Haruspex first on Forests, then on other provinces. Same with Augury and Dark Knowledge. Death, Astral and a few others don't seem to have a huge pattern (Plains/Forests are good to find Air Sites, anything freshwater is good for Water Sites, etc). Mountains I generally search first with Earth but not alot of nations have the versitility to search with such diversity.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe they are right around there, they have alot of variance as far as I've seen. If you take a look at the Magic Site List you'll notice a pattern of paths, I'll break it down for you and anyone else who ever searches for this particular topic.

Acadamy Underneath (W)
Clam Field (W)
Coral Reef (W)
Coral Statue (W)
Isle of Ice (W)
Isle of the Sea Fathers (W)
The Water Solstice (W)

Isle of Death (D)
Dying Ground of the Whales (D)
Sunken Galley (D)
The Wasted Sea (D)
Ghoul Fish Cave (D)

Coral Garden (N)
Kelp Forest (N)
Kelp Fortress (N)
Kelp Grove (N)
Sea Oak (N)

Basalt Halls (S)
The Crater (S)
Tower of Pearls (S)

Basalt Pillar (E)
Moving Sand Banks (E)
Underwater Cliff (E)

Gorge of Glowing Fish (F)
Fire Rift (F)

Underwater Cave (A)
Pocket of Air (A)

Ancient Temple of the Deeps (H)

This may be innaccurate as far as total sites (if there are more and you know of them, give a hollar) but you can see that Water Sites are most prevelant, then it goes to Nature/Death with a tie, then from there Astral/Earth, then ending with Fire/Air and ending with Holy.

Now this may not be an accurate depiction based on the levels and how they are frequented (if Level 1 sites are given a higher probability than Level 3) but if you take a direct average then you are more likely to find this type of spread. In my games I find quite a bit of Earth, Nature and Death. You'll have to make your own judgement. However it should be noted that you can find 50% of the possible sites with Voice of Tiamat and the other 35% with Dark Knowledge and Haruspex.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on what nation you are and what abilities you have availiable along with gem usage. But assuming you have everything availiable except a Acashic Record, I'd probably do it based on need. If I needed or wanted to search a particular province for a specific type. I'd search for whatever was my priority based on Terrain type. So if I was looking for Nature gems, I'd use Haruspex first on Forests, then on other provinces. Same with Augury and Dark Knowledge. Death, Astral and a few others don't seem to have a huge pattern (Plains/Forests are good to find Air Sites, anything freshwater is good for Water Sites, etc). Mountains I generally search first with Earth but not alot of nations have the versitility to search with such diversity.

Quote:

And what about sea province? Are they the same as Plains in both magic site frequency (0 modifier) and no preferable element type? (the obvious pereferable element for the sea provinces would be water of course, but I don't seem to be fiding that many water sites in the ocean in my games.)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe they are right around there, they have alot of variance as far as I've seen. If you take a look at the Magic Site List you'll notice a pattern of paths, I'll break it down for you and anyone else who ever searches for this particular topic.

Acadamy Underneath (W)
Clam Field (W)
Coral Reef (W)
Coral Statue (W)
Isle of Ice (W)
Isle of the Sea Fathers (W)
The Water Solstice (W)

Isle of Death (D)
Dying Ground of the Whales (D)
Sunken Galley (D)
The Wasted Sea (D)
Ghoul Fish Cave (D)

Coral Garden (N)
Kelp Forest (N)
Kelp Fortress (N)
Kelp Grove (N)
Sea Oak (N)

Basalt Halls (S)
The Crater (S)
Tower of Pearls (S)

Basalt Pillar (E)
Moving Sand Banks (E)
Underwater Cliff (E)

Gorge of Glowing Fish (F)
Fire Rift (F)

Underwater Cave (A)
Pocket of Air (A)

Ancient Temple of the Deeps (H)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Imteresting, thank you.I've noticed that there are no Blood and Unholy sites in this list. That means seaching for those resourses would be a waste of time and /or bloodlsaves.

I though that any land type _could_ potentially contain any element types, including level 4 sites in each elements, although the probablility would be differnt for differnt lands of course and for diferent elements. But in case with sea provinces, based upon this list, it doesn't seem to be the case.

I wonder if same situation may exist for some other land types?(other than sea) Meaning that certain magic types do not exist is some specific land types, or if they do exist there than only up to some lower than four level. If it is so for some land-type(s)than it would be usefull to know, especially in MP games, since it would allow you to narrow down your search patterns, saving you time and/or gems.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

Not sure of the exact numbers. I guess it works like this:

Magic: (site freq) + 30
Waste: (site freq) + 20
Swamp: (site freq) + 20
Mountain: (site freq) + 10
Forest: (site freq) + 10
Farm: (site freq) - 20

Only the most beneficial counts.

If site: Check what site. Random.
If site not possible: Reroll.
If site unique and already in the game: Reroll.
If site possible and rare: Reroll once.

Many nature sites are common but restricted to forests etc.

Unique sites are also rare or common. Inkpot end is unique and common. Crown of Darkness is rare.

No blood under water IIRC. Not sure about unholy.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great, thank you Kristoffer - that's exactly inforamtion that I was looking for!

So Mountains and Forests are actually less beneficial than Swamps and Wastes? Interesting, it is contrary to common belief that Mountains are the best land for magic sites. It is very good to know, and it also changes my entire sitesearching strategy, since I always tried to search Mountains first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


I take it that "Magic" is some very rare and highly magical terrain type that exist on some maps? Haven't seen it yet, have been playing mostly on Aran/Orania/Karan/Inland maps so far.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

It is possible to make some terrins have magic sites more often, and I think that is what Kristoffer is referring to. I think it can't be seen in-game if the mapmaker hasn't made it visible somehow, but luckily Jason Lutes added both some stars and little decorations (henges, towers) to these provinces.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

I'm not sure of the specifics. Waste might be 30, swamp and mountain 20. It was just a guess.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

I believe that list is incomplete Zen.

Sunray has produced a nice list with all the effects:

http://www.bl23c.com/arryn/downloads/dom2sites.xls

check it out. It's too complicated for me, but maybe you guys will understand it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Magic sites questions
 

Magic is a terrain switch. Changes have been made to the game which didnt get to the documentation. Or if you are like me you might have gotten an error when it tried to update the docs, and the patch skipped that.

The #terrain command is a number created by adding together the numerics for everything that can be said to apply to that province. And as Kristoffer mentioned, apparently these are not cumulative as to the random roll. The best one is whats used in deciding what plus to add to a sites roll. As far as I know this is the latest up-to-date list of terrain switches.....

nothing (defaults to plains) 0
small 1
large 2
sea 4
fresh water 8
mountain 16
swamp 32
waste 64
forest 128
farm 256
nostart 512 - for islands and special provinces
manysites 1024 - increased site frequency

So if province 9 is a plains, small, no-start then the map has it a "#Terrain 9 513" (0+1+512) and it you wanted to add a higher chance of magic sites then you would add 1024 to that and make it "#terrain 9 1537"

[ April 03, 2004, 14:25: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is taken from that list. It only lists underwater sites, if that wasn't clear enough.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

[quote]Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:


nothing (defaults to plains) 0
small 1
large 2
sea 4
fresh water 8
mountain 16
swamp 32
waste 64
forest 128
farm 256
nostart 512 - for islands and special provinces
manysites 1024 - increased site frequency


I assume that "small" or "large" flags only affect province population/income/supplies, and not magic sites or its frequency, right?

I also assume that freshwater is invisible modifier (but you can guess it by presebse of the river in province, if map has been created correctly), which dioesn't affect site frequency but that enables some additional water sites, according to Zen. ( in addition to increasiang income in provinces with rivers and having possibilty of floods in random events). Is it correct?

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh all right. I know you've said it earlier that you are not sure of exact numebrs, but I thought you mean the exact value of modifiers, not which one is better than others. My fault, sorry.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

The best I could find on terrain effects was...

mountain - good for resources and magic sites, bad for money
forest - same as mountain, but less so
farmlands - good for money, bad for resources and sites
swamp - just plain bad
waste - good for magic sites, bad for money
sea - good for atlantis
nostart - no player can start with their capital here

I forget what it was about fresh water. Money I think. Of course all of them do have some effect on random events. Such as fresh water (rivers) for flooding.

Re: Magic sites questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I am aware of this list. In fact I've started this tread trying to get more information to regardin it, since it is very general. :)However I am not sure that it is entirely correct one - Swamps for example tend to produce more magic sites AFAIK, while in the list they are marked as "plain bad". (KristofferO kindof confirmed it about Swamps being good for magic in his post, however since he warned that this is just a guess, so AFAICT it is still not certain at this point. Although I think I've found more than regular share of magic sites in the Swamps in my games)