Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

1) Sneaking Armies: Is there any way to set these to move and patrol that I haven't figured out yet? I had one army full of sneakers, one with no sneakers. Both of them I wanted to move 1 province and patrol as there was a castle there I expected to come under attack. I could set the non-sneakers to, but not the sneakers.

I probably could have solved it in this case by moving a non-sneaking unit into the sneaking army, but is there any way to do it if I don't have a non-sneaking trooper available?

2) Trying out the vampire queen for the first time and just starting hitting the better construction levels. What kind of items do you generally stick on a VQ? (I only have access to death, water, air, nature, no slaves for the VQs blood magic.)

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

1) You likely have to issue the 'move' order first into the province with the castle, and only then 'move & patrol' will show.

2) Vamp chicks look better naked.
If you insist on dressing her up: add some resistance item vs fire/lightning proficient opponents, or MR vs SG Ermor/Astral Users. Armor can be good also.

I am starting to think that the VQ should be nerfed, she is soo much better than the comparable Liche types.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a combat pretender, she is soo much better than anything. No other pretender can make any number of mundane troops irrelevant from turn 3 on, but a VQ can. I'm thinking of any nation that can hire an earth mage turn 1, forge a black steel plate turn 2, and send the VQ out to begin the slaughter turn 3. For any other nation, it takes only slightly longer - until alteration 2 is researched. I'm not sure what kind of nerf I'd suggest - removing the regeneration might be a start, so that at least anything that does manage to hit her would have a greater chance of inflicting an affliction, but this is probably not enough. Possibly increasing the new path cost to 80 would help - a little harder to have both earth and water, which is my favorite combo for a naked queen - quickness and stoneskin and off she goes. Lets not even mention what Ermor can do with one...

As it stands right now, if I played strictly to win, I would never take any other pretender. Never.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

yeah, the VQ is the worst of the lot.

I'd suggest two things:

1. no regen would be good - that way, even though immortal, she would at least possibly get some afflictions. Lessening the implicit recuperative powers of immortal units would be good too.

2. Extra paths are far too cheap. those are what make a truly insane supercombattant. I'd raise the VQ's extra path cost to 60 or 70, and the Ghost King's extra path costs to 40. Also a few others should recieve similar increases.

edit: oops, I see I've basically repeated what Truper said.

And even increasing the costs for new paths won't really interfere w/ the creation of crazy supercombattants. but at least it would help a bit. Norfleet's standard vampire queen has 400 points invested in paths. increasing the initial path cost would only lower her numbers a little, and wouldn't much affect her brutal combat power.

[ April 13, 2004, 20:39: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

Issuing the move order first then click again to get patrol doesn't work for sneaking armies; as I said I got the non-sneaking to work. It seems to just be a missing option unless I'm doing something really stupid. For the record this is with a sidhe champion and all daoine sidhe in case it matters. Can anyone get any sneaking army to move & patrol?

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ctrl-click to move instead of sneak, then change movement order to move and patrol.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

.. play with indies=7 or better even 9. Bet you won't get far with your VQ ...
A naked VQ with fire-4-shield kills 5..15 milita per combat. That won't make 60+ troops root 4 in 5 times. To make things more interesting, use difficult or extremly difficult research.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, this does not work, just went and quadruple-checked. With 2 armies, one a monk leading 10 daoine sidhe and one and sidhe champion leading 24 sidhe moving between 2 adjacent provinces that I control.

In both cases if I originally sneak, then re-click to change I get choices of: defend province, patrol province (which patrols current in both cases), move, search, preach, blood hunt, construct, pillage, cancel. If I originally ctrl-click to move instead of sneak, I get the exact same choices except move is replaced by sneak in the list.

It seems there's something missing as I can think of no logical reason why they wouldn't be able to move&patrol like every regular army.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

I agree. The VQ needs to be more expensive, or something. Compare her to the Bog Mummy and Master Lich (or whichever lich is more expensive..) and it's pretty obvious that she just totally overpowers them. Since most of her abilities are pretty thematic, I would rather see more expensive paths and an increased cost than an actual nerf of the unit.

Maybe she could be restricted to only blood nations, such as Abysia and Mictlan - but not Ermor, since they aren't exactly blood focused http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But one way or the other, a Pretender with so many obvious advantages (from immortality, regen, etherealness, stealth, decent path cost, immortal vampire groupies, etc) should also be the most expensive.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*cough*

a fire 4 shield? well, sure, if you're not even trying. W/ Alt 3 Enchant 1 a cheap VQ can destroy pretty well anything on the planet w/out breaking a sweat.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, this does not work, just went and quadruple-checked. With 2 armies, one a monk leading 10 daoine sidhe and one and sidhe champion leading 24 sidhe moving between 2 adjacent provinces that I control.

In both cases if I originally sneak, then re-click to change I get choices of: defend province, patrol province (which patrols current in both cases), move, search, preach, blood hunt, construct, pillage, cancel. If I originally ctrl-click to move instead of sneak, I get the exact same choices except move is replaced by sneak in the list.

It seems there's something missing as I can think of no logical reason why they wouldn't be able to move&patrol like every regular army. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For any unit to move and patrol you have to be going into a castle. You are aware of that, right?

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

If you want to restrict access to her, Black Forest Ulm strikes me as the most thematically reasonable beneficiary.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you don't then you aren't scripting her right, and haven't given her the right paths.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All you need to make her essentially invulnerable to normal troops is water 2, and 20 protection. Just cast quickness, breath of winter, attack and watch the troops die. Add a stoneskin if you put earth magic on her. The VQ has almost every modifier that you need on a SC, so she doesn't need mch equipment to make her truly fearsome.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

Bah, vq's suck. Mine got decked (along with about 200 ulmish infantry) 4 times in a row by a group of 5 random invading heroes, including a troll on his own at the end, vs 120 black plate elites, 5-6 smiths and the vq pumped up with equipment each time (although no spells, to support an ulm-friendly dominion).

Normally though, she's vulnerable to all sorts of spells and enchanted items...

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um, ya, I knew that really I did ... not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ah well, that should take care of my stupid mistake for the day. Thanks!

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I would say that she's the single most powerful combat pretender out there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then that's the problem, you didn't take advantage of magic to make her essentially invulnerable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Put an elemental armor on her, and minor magic resist equipment, and then just about the only thing that has a chance to hurt her is death magic. You can give her afflictions by cursing her and using very buff tramplers, but she'll get better in just a few turns.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*cough*

a fire 4 shield? well, sure, if you're not even trying. W/ Alt 3 Enchant 1 a cheap VQ can destroy pretty well anything on the planet w/out breaking a sweat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically, you are just saying that Etherealness, Regeneration, High Protection (armor or ironskin/invulnerability), Low Encumberance, Life Drain, and Immortality... are really uber together.

Well, that's a suprise! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

However, that can be acomplished by a number of pretender templates... either through magic or items (though the immortality + full items slots is hard to beat).

She's the fastest out of the gate whooping it up with Indie 9s really early... but I don't think this is a problem, because somebody has to be... why not the VQ?

However, I think the full item slots means that she doesn't suffer at all for this in the late game... pretenders like the Dragons, Bulls, Wyrm, ect... can whoop up on indies early too, but they are more limited in the later game(ie against other empires), because they can't increase their power as effectively with added items...

So take away her misc slots. See how popular she is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

The infamous Bogus the Troll Raider is substantially nastier than most non-unique independents (Bloodhenge Druids could perhaps be nasty if they get lucky with Bleed, say). The combination of good prot, high base hp, good combat stats, a wraith sword and good regeneration is harsh if you merely melee him with living troops.

Hm. Should vampires be ethereal? I'm not sure what source that would be based on, and it's a substantial boost against indies conveniently lacking magic weapons. Take that away, perhaps give them a 'change shape' order (wolf? bat?) if one must, *shrug*.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is nothing that you can put on her that can protect her from AP x3 Undead damage... unless invulnerability ignores AP effects? I can never find my manual when I need it *grumble*...

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Impossible to beat, since there's no way to put as many modifiers on any other pretender chassis. She doesn't need a ring of regen, flying boots, life drain weapon, robe or the robe of shadows at all, whereas those all take up a slot on any other pretender.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She's immortal, which means that she can take just about any risks you want her to.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That wouldn't change much, since she doesn't really _need_ the AMA, and she already has inherent regeneration, so the other slot usually goes for a luck pendant.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Flambeau is only available to the nations with fire 3, and you still need to put it on something that can hit her through a defense of more than 20 and multiple mirror images, while not dying to the soul vortex and breath of winter or her own attacks.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">a good SC loaded up can have 35 or 40 defense.

good luck w/ your flambeaus. and, of course, a high-level mirror-image, w/ luck, will stop most of those very few hits which get through.

[ April 14, 2004, 01:01: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

Then of course, if she has both death 3 and fire 2 then you really can't kill her without very specific troops and spell selection. Soul vortex and phoenix pyre provide esentially unlimited ressurrections.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Flambeau is only available to the nations with fire 3, and you still need to put it on something that can hit her through a defense of more than 20 and multiple mirror images, while not dying to the soul vortex and breath of winter or her own attacks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. Only Fire 3, which is a pain to get if you don't have it, since most of the easy addition items occur at Fire 3... except for the Skull of Fire... and other pretty specialized items (Ring of Wizardry, Staff of Elemental Mastery) which require Con 6 and have high reqs.

But the point about hitting through high defense and mirror images? I'm not sure I get that... obviously, you'd be sending in SC's to do this job... armed with a weapon that is magic, AP, and x3 damage... so the etherealness and armor go out the window... so she's got itty bitty hp that you can divide by 1/3...

Hey, I don't know... I have yet to encounter the "uber vampire queen" in an MP game... I've only used her myself to abuse the AI in SP games...

But frankly I'd like my chances if I had a pretender Void Lord equiped with a Flambeu...

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">a good SC loaded up can have 35 or 40 defense.

good luck w/ your flambeaus. and, of course, a high-level mirror-image, w/ luck, will stop most of those very few hits which get through. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why can't your SC have exactly the same thing?

Except that your hits will be AP x3 damage.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If ANYTHING has Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre, it has essentially unlimited resurrections against normal riffraff. You hardly need a VQ for that.

A VQ is a highly potent base chassis priced at a reasonable 110 points. The baseline model is not that impressive, however, unless you invest a sizeable chunk of your nation points in tweaking it for battle. As Arch points out, I plow several hundred points into paths chosen specifically for battle. This is not a small outlay, and comes at fair expense in other areas: Yet the VQ can be in only one place at a time.

Ultimately, the VQ has one very specific role: It's built to be the ultimate combat base chassis for a pretender, and very little else. By the time you've bought the loadout needed to make it a monster, you have very little free points for anything else: Your scales, dominion strength, and castle will likely be somewhat subpar. In short, you've invested a sizeable chunk of your national allocation into a single point. It should not be a surprise, therefore, that you can tear through anything that you can get your hands on....but you can only be in one place at a time, the fundamental shortcoming of the strategy.

Sure, it's possible to create economy-class combat VQs, but they're simply not up to the same caliber as the near-invulnerable monster that people who have played against me have seen: That requires a sizeable investment above and beyond that which you sink into a typical SC chassis. Tweaking a VQ really requires a LOT of nation points and is NOT cheap, given that the starting paths you get by default are generally non-synergistic: You wind up having to pay for other paths from scratch most of the time.

So yes, the VQ is definitely the most potent base chassis you can pick for an SC pretender....but that's also the only thing it does. You're probably not going to shoehorn a useful blessing onto one and still retain its combat potential. To go truly overboard on it will cost you a ton of points, leaving you with somewhat insuperior scales, dominion strength, and castle: Without the natural dominion strength, you have to aggressively push it with temples, as natural spread will falter in the face of opposing dominion.

It's not as unbeatable as certain people would have you believe: I have no fear of somebody else playing the same cards.

The VQ strategy is not an adjunct on top of an existing core strategy that is already strong: The VQ strategy is a standalone strategy of its own. To analyze the VQ as if it was also being played on top of something else is missing the bigger picture, because that's simply not how it works.

If you're worried your conventional army will be utterly destroyed by it, then don't send your conventional army into a place that the vampire might be: Don't drink with the vampire.

[ April 14, 2004, 01:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So which pretender chassis has as many advantages and few disadvantages as the VQ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's if you have a fire 3 mage available. That definetly limits the nations that can accomplish it. She's also has all the advantages of being undead. Your pretender will either get tired because you aren't using any life drain, or you will be using up two or more equipment slots for reinvigoration. Any standard SC needs at least two MR items and regeneration, so with the Flambeau, skullcap, AMA and regen ring you have an armor slot and a boot slot left over. You now have no elemental resist or flying.

You've probably also managed to rack up a few afflictions by this point, while she will be perfectly healthy. You'll also need to be able to bring your SC to her every single turn, since she is perfectly safe inside her dominion. This also presupposes that you know what kind of pretender your opponent has, and have more gems to spend than your opponent, since the flambeau alone is more expensive than the equipment needed to turn a VQ into a SC that can destroy any grouping of conventional troops.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">190 points for the VQ, the next cheapest is the PoD, which is hardly as effective.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water 2 costs 56 points on her. That's a single scale for a nation with earth 1 mages to make all your opponents normal armies completely useless. Not other pretender can even come close to her survivability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So why is it no more expensive than a mage chassis like the lich? It should be at least 150 points, as it is considerably more powerful than a titan for example.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a laughable argument. All you need is to spend 250 points to give her 2 paths at 2, and death at 3. You then have plenty of points remaining for most nations, since you won't need many troops anyways with her capabilities.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which should make it by default the most expensive chassis, since there are plenty of other combat pretenders out there that aren't nearly as effective and cost more. Why are her new magic paths only a cost of 40 instead of 50 or even 80 of the other combat pretenders? She even has immortality so that your investment is perfectly safe.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're scrambling here. To make her a combat monster costs no more than a fire 9 Moloch.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then you'll be able to provide strategies that don't involve SC units for every nation to defeat such a pretender. Oh wait. You can't do that, can you.

Thanks for agreeing with me that she's the most powerful pretender by the way, which is exactly what we are saying is the problem. No immortal unit should be the most effective combat pretender.

[ April 14, 2004, 01:47: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because a VQ does not start with a L3 path like the Lich? As for the Titan, the VQ may be more powerful in combat, but the Titan has dominion 3 and a L3 path to start with (apart from the nifty hps) making for an easier strong bless effect and high dominion, should you so desire. Different strengths for different gods.

EDIT: This should not be understood as if I am against a general increase in the price of the VQ, to the contrary, I am for a price hike. It only addresses the specific questions asked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 14, 2004, 02:26: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

I believe the statement and I personally agree that the VQ is built for abuse both as a SC and as a Domain powerful unit, getting not only Free Vampires (Which can provide a sizable defense within your own domain) as well as an immortality for having a high dominion. If you look at any other Pretender they only have 1 of those 2 abuses. Either A.) Immortality or B.) Free Troops. Only the Vampire Queen, Son of Niefel and Ghost King get a usable troop type that doesn't purely rely on the Pretender to use them in combat (though your preference may be to only have them with your VQ or GK). Moloch's Imps, Daughter of the Land's Lions, Father of Serpents 'Free Units' are not dominion based but are also essentially as much a handicap as much as a benefit as it disallows versitility.

The only other Immortal Pretenders are the Bog Mummy and Phoenix. Only 1 of the 2 have decent slots and that one has subpar stats (as when you are looking at Immortality for a SC, you have to look at "out of the box" stats, slots, and abilities, which you can tell which is clearly superior).

I see no reason why the Lord of the Night costs 150, while the VQ costs 110. It at the very least should be moved up to 125 with other "Combat" pretenders and hopefully more limited nation selection.

Of course, that is my opinion based on the fact I'm tired of seeing newbs and veterans alike carbon copy pretenders instead of utilizing the variety that is found in the game. But of course I also don't think Clam Hoarding is a big deal, so my view is more than likely off.

[ April 14, 2004, 02:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">190 points for the VQ, the next cheapest is the PoD, which is hardly as effective.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The cheapest would be the Michtlan Smoking Mirror at 102 points I think.... But perhaps he is a bit too feeble. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Of other interesting combinations, a Phoenix Pyring Soul Vortexing Lord of the Gates would cost 140 points, a Nataraja 156 points, a Golden Naga 160 points, a Red Dragon 170 points, heck, even making Odin the All-Father able to use that combination can be done for 195 points.

There are lots and lots of good pretender chassis that can use Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre if that is what you want, and quite a few of them cheaper than the Vampire Queen.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

Well, why not take away the etherealness like Tawqus suggested... I don't think I'm familiar with any literature that says that Vamps are innately ethereal like ghosts and specters and what not...

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but every time they get hit they risk permanent afflictions. If they are being hit hard enough to die then they will likely gain them quite quickly.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the Lich, the Master Lich, and the Lich Queen, but yes, immortality is a very rare ability and ought to be priced accordingly.

I would be happy to see the high and mighty VQ get her just desserts and be bumped to 125 or preferably 150 points due to the sheer mass of useful abilities she has been granted, including many of the most precious ones found in the game.


Ps: Am I the only one who prefers using the Lich Queen as Ermor rather than a Vampire Queen? It just seems so much more fitting - and you can start with dominion 9 or 10 to go with your insane levels of magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tend to prefer the Lich Queen when playing living Ermor, as it's nice for your communion slaves to be reborn when the masters drain them, and she's not much more expensive than the PoD for a level 9 blessing. Of course, I also really like having a pretender with earth and water magic for death nations, as jade armor is extremely useful for bane lords.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but every time they get hit they risk permanent afflictions. If they are being hit hard enough to die then they will likely gain them quite quickly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, I thought the idea was to have a pretender (preferably with a ring of regeneration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) that could survive going out with a bang - not a whimper, not one that would make a habit of it.

If you want a self-abusing habitually dying pretender, then the Ancient Kraken at 136 points (and an amulet of the fish) is your squid! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(Ok, I just like using the Ancient Kraken as Atlantis or R'lyeh - a very powerful SC chassis despite having only 3 misc. slots, one of which is almost guaranteed to go to an amulet of the fish)

[ April 14, 2004, 09:47: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh yeah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I forget about them, because the Liches are feeble (appropriately so) and the Lich Queen is Ermor Only; and I feel appropriately priced for her singular nation choice. To be quite honest, whenever I'm thinking about picking a Lich, I end up picking a PoD.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I usually play with the Lich Queen with Ermor for both that fact and because VQ's are notoriously 'expected'. Also I don't like 'wasting' her magic in Blood (unless I'm playing BE).

[ April 14, 2004, 03:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. But which of them are also innately etherial, flying, regenerating, cold immune, poison immune, life stealing and immortal, as well as spawning high-quality free troops? Not to mention encumberance 0, and... and... and...

And by the way, has anybody else considered the absurdity of flying in a full suit of black steel armor?

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Vampires that a VQ spawns do not appear in a controllable manner or in very large quantities, even with strong dominion. If anything, they are not nearly as reliably spawned as the PoD's longdead rabble, which, if he parks for a few turns, can grow to be a sizeable mass. If you're using Soul Vortex + Phoenix Pyre, lifestealing isn't even an issue.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. It's not as if Vampires fly by any apparent natural means, as they're clearly not aerodynamic and have no ability to generate lift. Dom2 wouldn't be the only game with flying, armored vampires. I don't even use Black Steel, the spellcasting encumberance imposed would cause her to pass out during prebattle buffing.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not entirely sure what the Etherealness of Vampires is supposed to represent, although personally, I'd have thought a Mistform would be more appropriate: Vampires are reputed for their ability to assume gaseous form at will. Not sure where Etherealness fits into this. Then again, would this really be an improvement? Mistform is in some ways better, and other ways worse, than pure etherealness....

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The chance of a vampire appearing is 5% times the current dominion level of the province the VQ is in. In dominion 10, she gets one every other turn.

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[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I normally don't use black steel on a queen either, unless I'm playing an earth nation, and want a bargain-basement queen. But consider, say, a Caelum Seraph, flying happily around wearing 80 lbs of plate mail...

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not entirely sure what the Etherealness of Vampires is supposed to represent, although personally, I'd have thought a Mistform would be more appropriate: Vampires are reputed for their ability to assume gaseous form at will. Not sure where Etherealness fits into this. Then again, would this really be an improvement? Mistform is in some ways better, and other ways worse, than pure etherealness.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Etherealness means that magic weapons are (mostly?) required to hit the creature, yes? IIRC, in the pen & paper RPG gaming world of AD&D, at least, you needed something like a +2 magic weapon to hit a vampire. Etherealness seems a pretty good fit for that (themewise, I can't really comment on balance since I haven't played/encountered one yet).

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And a VQ that's out on the borders of the empire thumping indies and kicking *** is not going to be sitting around in a dominion-10 province most of the time. Furthermore, a vampire in the occupied province every other turn tends to result in a trail of little vampires with no master. A single vampire lying around with no way to get home until somebody comes along and kills it, sending it back to the capitol, is hardly a real threat: A VQ that sits around spawning mini-vampires in the comfort of a 10-dominion zone is one that is not having much effect on you.

In all my games with a VQ, never have I gotten auto-vampires in quantities that make them more meaningful than as a bodyguard for an occasional death/blood mage. It's just too hard to round them up when you're constantly on the move.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

Hehe, all the suggestions that are based on 'lore' could arise to some funny modifications to balance her out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Say...she can't cross running water (streams bordering provinces).
Or automatically suffers the equivalent of a 'petrify' on defense (or auto-routs) because what sane commander would attack her at *night* ? No, no , attack her during the daytime !
Susceptibility to fire, anyone ?

- Kel

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That'd be cute, but I don't think the game currently has streams, as evidenced by their implementation on Cradle.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dominions doesn't really have a good concept of night and day, so concepts like attacking at night don't really exist.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't aware Vampires were exceptionally flammable. There are certain fires that cause 3x damage to undead, though. Built-in fire susceptibility would leave a potential gap in the defenses, even with elemental armor equipped, though. Sounds cool, though, if you could find a source for it.

Don't think too many other folklore based limitation would really apply too well in the confines of the Dominions II engine, though.

Maybe you could add a special item like "garlic", a misc item that gives +20 defense vs. vampires. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And a VQ that's out on the borders of the empire thumping indies and kicking *** is not going to be sitting around in a dominion-10 province most of the time. Furthermore, a vampire in the occupied province every other turn tends to result in a trail of little vampires with no master. A single vampire lying around with no way to get home until somebody comes along and kills it, sending it back to the capitol, is hardly a real threat: A VQ that sits around spawning mini-vampires in the comfort of a 10-dominion zone is one that is not having much effect on you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to use your other example, you probably wouldn't want to park a PoD in a dominion-10 province for very long either, would you? At least the VQ's fodder can fly at the same speed as her. The PoD just leaves a bunch of leaderless skeletons in his wake.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A PoD consistently generates the skeletons every turn, however, as long as he's within dominion. The PoD is also more likely to sit still for a period of time, being that he's not quite as directly combat-oriented, and will likely spend more time casting rituals or just being a blessing pretender. The PoD's skeletons can form a sizeable pile of chaff useful for a death-magic nation in only a few turns. The VQ's vampires are closer to the GK's ghosts in general format. If anything, the VQ's vampires are a poor choice for accompanying in combat unless you've piled up a lot of them, because the vampires are very cowardly despite their immortality and flee quickly, routing off into neighboring provinces and becoming badly scattered again, especially when there are not many of them to stabilize the squad. All in all, the VQ's vampires are more flavor than they are a real consideration: Nobody takes a VQ just to get the little vampirelings!

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the Lich, the Master Lich, and the Lich Queen, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">..and the Saurolich.

Re: Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Haha. I like that idea. It would probably work quite well, too. The notion of 'vampire hunters' would quite clearly balance out the apparent superiority of the vq. Maybe the inquisition should get a nice bonus vs vampires, too?

I have a question though, as everybody here seems to pay the dominion costs of equiping the vq in magic...wouldn't empowerment work equally well and a lot cheaper, or do MP games just not Last long enough for empowerment to be effective (vq's are just as effective at the start with only very limited spells).