Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Heya to all!

Feels like it's finally time to un-lurk and make an attempt to be productive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Here's a map that I banged together during the Easter holidays. It's not all that artistic, but it'll have to do for the moment.

The file is temporarily located here: dom2arduria.zip
Download size is 20 megs... the TGA is quite high-res. Here's a preview:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/jons...riapreview.jpg

And finally, some design notes.
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188 provinces, 6-14 players. Optimum could be around 8 to 10.

Arduria is the larger of the two better-defined continents in my longstanding roleplaying campaign. Its history suits the Dom 2 backstory well; a great empire fell and spawned a number of splinter nations. These nations then started rather messy wars with each other until a group of godlike beings, the Immortals, arrived to stabilize the region.

The Dom 2 -customized map omits the arrival of the Immortals and lets the wars continue. The dominance of an undead magocratic empire in the West Mass was removed (though Ermor would fit the bill nicely in a scenario) and the sea nations were added to the mix.

Originally, the continent was formed according to fairly realistic principles. Most of the population are located in the mediterranean or temperate climates, while the mountaineous, swampy and cold regions are less populated. Major cities (=the various capitals) are in particularly rich or well-connected provinces. For Dom 2, I spread the population more evenly, though the central lands still ended up richer than other regions. I tried to balance this by the placement of starting points and victory points; the richer regions have more competition and are further away from the neutral victory points.

Natural features influenced province borders heavily. As a rule, rivers are crossable but wide lakes (that are too small to be considered inner seas) and tall mountain ranges are not. If two provinces share a very small border, they are usually considered neighbours if there are no terrain features at or near the border.

There are 12 land and two sea starting locations on the map. It is possible to have more than 14 nations, but they will start in randomly assigned provinces. The absolutely worst provinces and neutral victory point provinces are non-startable.

The default victory condition is by victory points, though it is not enforced by the map file. Each start location is worth one point, five neutral provinces are worth one point each and one neutral province is worth two. That's a total of 21 if no additional points are used. I recommend using a victory limit of 11 points.

Each of the neutral victory locations has a pre-built fortification. The two-VP province has a population of 50000 and some additional troops and commanders, and should be reasonably troublesome to conquer.
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If you decide to give the map a whirl, any comments (especially constructive ones) would be much appreciated.

UPDATE: to reduce possible balance problems due to the behaviour of neutral troops defending castles, the neutral VP provinces were downsized to medium size and the #population modifier of the Forge was removed.

Get the new .map file from here: mapfileonly.zip

[ May 04, 2004, 18:49: Message edited by: Crandaeolon ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Looks nice!

In what RPG does the campaign take place?

Do you want us to place the map on the illwinter page?

Looking forward to the other continent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Looks good so far.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That can be a problem. An independent province can have its castle taken by a scout. All troops there are considered on defense mode (inside the castle).

I have that problem on my maps all the time. Im hoping for a command that will assign troops to patrol, or allow defence points for independents.

[ April 13, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've used different rulesets, at the moment it's running with D&D 3rd edition rules.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that would be great. Then I wouldn't need to worry about keeping it in my own space for an extended period.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm... I wonder when the next holiday is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But you'll still have to siege the castle in order to take it, right? I thought that victory points belong to the faction controlling the castle? (I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere...)

[ April 13, 2004, 19:57: Message edited by: Crandaeolon ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

But the VP is not taken until the fortress is stormed. Income-wise it might be a problem though.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm, that's true. Perhaps I should reduce the size of the VP provinces to alleviate the income problem... at least the 50k population one will need to be downsized.

UPDATE: Did a quickie fix. The neutral VP provinces were downsized to medium size and the #population modifier of the Forge was removed. Here's the new map file: mapfileonly.zip

The whole package was updated too.

[ April 13, 2004, 21:06: Message edited by: Crandaeolon ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a very good idea. It's very annoying that you essentially can't put castles in the wealthy independent provinces that presumably would have them.

Some sort of #patrols perhaps, to make a particular leader and his troops as outside a province? Ideally independents with castles would always have additional patrollers.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Patrolling would make sense, so long as independents are excepted from the "patrollers removing unrest kill pop" because otherwise there'll be problems once somebody's dominion reaches them.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The really cool thing is, my Easter holidays are just coming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The less cool thing is that I've got a lot to do the next week http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

The map looked very cool, but when I tested it and saw many problems there. Many neighbohor provinces weren't connected, and some starting places were many times better than others.

I started on the grey place at south, and all provinces had income 2-10 so I had almost 20 useless coastal provinces and I lost immiadately when atlantis attacked because my income was only 200, and 100 came from the capital.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's odd. I didn't expect more than one or two connection "bugs". Could you list the provinces involved?

In many cases where provinces share a short border with a terrain feature on it, they're not supposed to be considered "connected". Same thing with lakes that are too small to have a water-dwelling population (the larger "lakes" are actually inner seas.)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is by design, since the map is based on a pseudo-realistic world. This means that not everyone's lot is equal. I have a strong personal dislike for symmetrical maps where everyone has equal resources in the vicinity and are equidistant from each other...

That "many times better" sounds a bit worrisome, though. Did you consider just the starting income and not, for example, the availability of magic sites which can translate into income via alchemy? The mountain regions should have much more magic sites than the richer farmlands.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm. The poor area around province #16 (your starting location, I believe) is fairly low-income, but should be rich in magic sites. Some fairly rich provinces are pretty near in the west. In one of my test games, I started from the same location and expanded west- and northwards. I also began systematic magic site searching early and alchemized gems to gold whenever I needed money in a pinch. Won the game, but it was by far the hardest. Perhaps I could add some mines into the mountain regions to make 'em more worthwhile.

The sea nations can be a balance problem, since there are so many sea provinces. I'll look into it some more.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

I checked the map thoroughly for neighbour connection problems, but couldn't find any that were not intended. Although originally they weren't supposed to be linked, #27 and #39 will probably be linked in the next update, since the obstacle doesn't really serve any useful purpose.

I'll consider adding some mines to the poorer areas. That should make money differences a bit less pronounced while still feeling thematic. If my understanding is correct, using

#setland X
#knownfeature "Y"

without the #killfeatures switch will add a feature Y to the province X if the 4 magic site slots were not filled by the random assigning of sites. Is it so?

I'd be most interested in opinions on the sea nations. Are they too strong on a map like this?

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

A very nice looking map! I'm looking forward to playing on it!

The number of sea provinces looks fine to me. Perhaps the balance of acquatic nations could be tweaked by adjusting the values of those provinces. I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know if they need to be tweaked, but I don't think simply the number of them is necessarily a problem by itself.

PvK

[ April 17, 2004, 21:28: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Crandaeolon's beautiful map can now be downloaded from my site's ever-growing files page. Hopefully, the added exposure will give him the additional feedback he'd like to have so he can make it even better (if that's even possible).

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes thats how it works. You can also use the terrain switch to boost the random rolls on specific provinces (adding 1024) trusting in the game to select appropriate sites for that area. A touch of both methods might achieve what you want without it feeling forced.

-- People dont know how to pay for free things anymore. Then they wonder why no one does free things.

[ April 18, 2004, 13:19: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The ability to attack several coastal provinces by controlling just a couple of sea provinces is what concerns me the most. Oh well. That's how they work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the support, Arryn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Indeed, feedback in most forms will be appreciated; I'm quite new to mapmaking and the game in general.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Already did that. I sprinkled magic-rich provinces here and there to spice things up. Adding 1024 to the value isn't documented in the map modding guide, but I thought it'd do something like that. I guess adding 512 makes the province unstartable, then?

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The ability to attack several coastal provinces by controlling just a couple of sea provinces is what concerns me the most. Oh well. That's how they work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep. It also means that sailors can maneuver faster than walkers in many cases, which can be interesting. Of course, it also means it might be interesting to do some maps where there was not much of value underwater except the ability to maneuver and hide in special ways.

And/or alternatively, you could split the sea provinces into more, or even make them weird shapes to "represent currents".

Lots of possibilities.

PvK

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Very good and large map, thanks!

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Is the final Version ready? I'll put it up tonight anyway.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Very cool map!

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've been testing it for a few days, might as well put it out since I can't find any glaring errors. Here's the new mapfile (1.1): mapfileonly.zip

This will probably be the final Version, unless something really drastic is spotted. Knock on wood... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Updated the zip too.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Got the semester wrapped up, and I'm thinking of putting a new map into the works. It will probably be larger (around 250 provinces or even more) and a _bit_ less watery. I'm also toying with PvK's ideas about water regions.

Creating the map will be done similarly compared to the previous one, so that's about as pretty as it can get. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now (again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )would be a good time to chime in with comments, suggestions and/or feedback on the previous map.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wish I had time for developing x-large maps.

Definitely looking forward to this next map !! The really large maps of 300+ provinces are rarely created. I believe the largest map available for download from Illwinter's website right now is the WorldMap of 339 provinces.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I do love large maps, the problem with them is that, at least as of 2.08, the nation overview display would corrupt when an overly large number of provinces was listed.

Also, maps should be MORE watery! There's already not enough water for our water nations to play in, and Illwinter is rumored to be introducing a third water nation. We need MORE water, not less!

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Arduria has 34 underwater provinces out of 188. The ratio will probably remain about the same. There will be landlocked seas and large lakes, a couple of oceans etc... I'll include "support" (start location placement & balancing considerations) for the rumoured 3rd nation right out of the box. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It won't take a horribly long time to create the map with the pseudo-random, fractally-generated and filter-prettified method I'm using. The tedious parts are drawing the borders and checking neighbour connections, the rest is all fun.

It's done when it's done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would gladly sacrifice using "the nation overview display" for a map of 300+ provinces. I love the x-large maps which usually has enormous armies marching around. In one game Ermor(computer AI) had 1,200 troops on a single province.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Well, the new project just ceased to be fun - I had drawn about 3/4ths of the borders when PhotoShop complained about "corrupted pixels" due to a "disk or SCSI malfunction" when loading the image. And sure enough, there were large discolored and garbled stripes across the map.

I had saved the image frequently, but all the borderwork was done on the same file, and now it's corrupt. Bugger that. Any ideas on how to recover from that? Scandisk reported nothing to fix, BTW.

Knowing myself, I probably won't restart the work unless the summer is _really_ boring. So, if someone wants to carry on the torch, give me a holler and I'll make the original available.

Here's a preview (the original is 4600x2300 pixels):

http://personal.inet.fi/private/jons...emapphase2.jpg

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Wow it looks nice. Please keep working on it. How "large" did you have in mind (land province, water provinces)? I have a little talk-paper on maps which might have some things to consider though its more about random-generated maps.
http://www.dom2minions.com/maps.shtml

Im not sure how large the provinces were going to be but your terrain areas might be large enough that a nation might end up surrounded by only one terrain type. Something to keep in mind (ctis cant take anything but mountains, ulm surrounded by all the good farmlands, etc)

I know more gimp than photoshop so this next part might need some translating. In general terms.... make a copy of the map, lower the colors gradually to something like 16 colors you should get a cartoon image of your map with big areas of brown, blue, green, white. Select a color like red. Then use an "edging" option (might be named something like borders?) which shouild draw red borders around all of the large color areas. Now go in with a line command and draw some lines chopping areas that seem too large into smaller portions. Remove everything but the red (drop paint, or "mask", or select-color and copy-to?). Bring up the original (well for safety, anothe copy of the original) and paste the red lines on top of it.

Usually this isnt perfect but its often enough of a start to change it form a massive job to a tweaking/editing one.

[ May 27, 2004, 15:07: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Never mind - I figured out a way already. I drew the borders on a separate layer, and it's easy to fix the corruption.

It looks to be around 300-400 provinces. I'll have to decide the size of water provinces still, and whether I'm going to make it appear like Mercator projection or not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I took that into account, lesson learned from making the previous map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know, the interesting drawback of a "huge" map in this regard is the fact that the battle map is 58x28. Assuming that the map is absolutely jampacked wall to wall with human-sized units, this means that there is room for, at most, 4872 units. Halve this number for the number of units that a single side can consist of and still fit on their side of the battlefield at start, resulting in 2436 mans per side. The 1200 troops you mention comes rather dangerously close, especially if not all of them are human sized, such as longdead horse.

Obviously, this number can be larger if the army consists of longdead hoburgs. But you're seeing a clear problem here.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know, the interesting drawback of a "huge" map in this regard is the fact that the battle map is 58x28. Assuming that the map is absolutely jampacked wall to wall with human-sized units, this means that there is room for, at most, 4872 units. Halve this number for the number of units that a single side can consist of and still fit on their side of the battlefield at start, resulting in 2436 mans per side. The 1200 troops you mention comes rather dangerously close, especially if not all of them are human sized, such as longdead horse.

Obviously, this number can be larger if the army consists of longdead hoburgs. But you're seeing a clear problem here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well hopefully the developers will provide a solution in Dominions_3 for the number of units in battle. Probably the best solution is something similar to what Lords_of_the_Realm_2 did for battles.

Re: Arduria map + a new one in the works
 

Dunno how it's done in LotR2, but as a fanatic Medieval: Total War player I'd advocate a method similar to MTW's "reinforcements", but modified to the Dominions system.

For example, there could be an auto-assigned "priority rating" to units (heavier, more expensive and more experienced units have higher priority) that the player would later be able to modify if he so desires. When the battle starts, the game would place all commanders and then pick from the other units according to their priority rating until a set amount of squares (say, 500 per side) are filled. Any leftover units would then arrive on the battlefield when a specified amount of space (50% or whatever) has been freed up by death or retreat, repeating the cycle if necessary.