"AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Hi again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
After some more solo games I feel somewhat bored by the poor challenge offered by AIs on the map size I like most - medium 150-200 provinces map, Indy at 7-9.
Usually AIs are only a challenge in the first 20 turns, then player gets such an advance in income and research that AIs become a mere annoyance. On such maps you don't often encounter other nations so soon, so when you reach them gobbling their 100+ LI armies isn't even that fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I won't stress again the main well-known deficiencies of AIs play (focus on SC and bless effects, poor scales, lots of crap troops, not enough searches& research, not enough fortresses, temples everywhere). These problems are addressable to an extent in maps, but no "generic" solution exists yet.

So I get an idea to "do with" this situation : what about a pack of mods (1 per nation), that once enabled (if nation is AI played) will seriously boost the nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ?

Effects would include :

* Better and more PD units (Pythium could have Hastati+Velites instead of Velites, Man Hvy Inf + LBman per point etc..)
* Reduced cost for the "good" units the AI doesn't build enough. I think this one could really change the AI unit composition : if a Hoplite has price and res costs reduced by 30 or 50%, maybe the AI will build them instead of Cardaces !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
* Reduced cost for all mages/priest - just so the AI will get more of them

I don't see any way to change scales or castles in a mod, but hopefully the AI will be richer and build more buildings ... maybe ...
I'd assemble such a mod for one nation then make some tests to see if it looks effective, but anyway I'd be interested to know if this issue is of some interest to people here and have feedback.

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

This sounds very good, pdf. I would dearly dearly love to see AI competence increase, since I enjoy SP play.
Would it be possible perhaps to give those AI nations something like a +1 to magic research ability?
Another idea (maybe stupid, I dont know!) *could* be to give such AI nations access to a "rainbow" searching type of unit, similar to Tien Chi's Mot5E -- maybe it would search with these commanders?? (Sorry if this is stupid, just an idea.)
best to you!

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Gandalf,
Mod apply to anyone playing, AI or not. With one mod per nation it won't be hard to enable the "good" ones.
It could be used as a cheat, I've no problem with that, but in MP it won't go unnoticed ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I know that map command can solve many issues, but the problem is that you can't easily apply a set of map command to any/all of your games, whereas it's quite easy with mods.

Tinkthanks
I don't claim I'll make the AI competence increase, just give them cheaper/more stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
A +1 Research bonus is moddable : giving it to each nation's lowest mage is a good idea, will try that ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
For Rainbow mages it could be done by creating a specific unit and putting it in the starting forces, but I'm not sure the AI will use it for searching... There's no way to test AI searches, except by guessing through gem income.
Thx for the praise anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

PDF, at the risk of a shameless plug, might I suggest you try running the Orania War Nasty Edition vs 16 impossible AIs?

It obviously does not address your main point, but it shows some ways in which even the AI can be pretty nasty if it has some decent resources on hand to start with.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Well, WOW! I havent been on these Boards for ages now, and I stopped playing Doms 2 because of the weak AI.
I thought that after some patches it will be improved, but as I see the AI still very weak.
Still the same old problems?
[Mass LI armies, etc..] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

What a shame! The devs should focus on the AI in the next patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Hm...I wonder..what if someone makes a mod without LI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Than the AI wont be able to build weak armies! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

MStavros: try playing a map with some (like 5 for every player, starting under indie control) preset good (fortified city) castles. You'll be suprised how much better the ai handles it's recruiting when it has some extra castles lying around.

Alternatively, try Orania Nasty Edition, made by Peter Ebbesen (I think). If OraniaNE isn't enough, ally all the computers in it together...

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Is there a way to mod ai's only? Or will this turn into a "cheats" boost for player nations?

The things you mention not seeing settings for are available to maps. I did a thread along the same line for boosting AI's thru map commands. Designed gods, scales, selected castles, additional castles, additional starting troops of the type the AI doesnt seem to spend enough on, magic sites, starting spells we would like to see used more.

Maybe you could do both mod and map.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great idea ! I'd incorporate that in my mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
At least I'd fire all the "totally useless" Light units (Cardaces, Slingers, Velites, Archer Lt Cav...), but keep the better ones (Peltasts, Archers obviously).
It won't prevent the AI from building Indy militia though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

And indeed Nasty Orania, and some other maps, are a real challenge. But what I want is to have a "better" AI independently of any map.

Lastly I'd add 2 features
- Increase the starting armies so that AI nations will have a usable force right from the start (let's say some 50 units, with HI, missile, and some cav if possible)
- Give all nations an extra Astral site (2 gems or so) and maybe a Gold or Resource site. As I don't think a province can have more than 4 sites adding 2 won't be doable for all nations, but 1 should be ok. Drawback is that a player will get that stuff if he invades the province... No self-destruction flag exists ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

2 comments:

Some starting nations have already 4 sites (Mictlan).

The cost of all light units should be lowered (from 20 to 40%) IMO, as the AI also like to build tons of independant crappy units. Also as we know that few players if any build light troops, then it would be better to fix the situation as a whole.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

alternatively light units should get a boost in defence... (taken from the thread speaking of LI and terrain)

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Wouldn't the ideal AI feel like playing against a human? I know that the guys who write GalCiv upload game files from players, and adapt the AI to play more like the best players.

Perhaps an idea for Dom3, but still a nice one. You could adjust it's tendancy to build fortresses, what preference it had for fortress provinces, what spells it targetted for research based on nation/pretender - lots of things.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

mmmh, can we keep focused on what the players can do, without waiting for the devs, in improving the AI? A perfect AI ok, but in 2071 it will be a bit late.

So back to topic, I would goes as far as propose as the boosted AI dont consider resources as a limitation: all units cost only one resource, the limitation deriving from his gold income, and thats it. This way, the capitol would be enough to churns out tons of units, *if gold is here*. As I'm pretty confident the AI is not cute enough to understand that a light infantry (10 gold 1 res) is even more crappier in the new system compared to a HI (10 gold, 1 res), you can be sure we will still see plenty of light national units, threading with the usual hords of recruited independants.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

I agree. GalCiv has always popped up in AI conversations for years. But it was written around AI. I dont think we will be seeing that kindof improvment for years to come (besides Id rather see player scripting for AI) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think before a mod discussion someone may need to test the AI abit. See if its build instructions are influenced by cost, or by position. Try turning the cost of mounted units for Man down to 5 gold and see if Man builds more of them. If not then try swapping the mounted and an infantry.

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Ya testing should be done to determine how the AI chooses what to build. Then this mod could tweak the costs to suit. If it likes to build low resource troops, then reducing the national heavy troops' resources (and even raising the resource costs of national troops you don't want the AI to use much of) might do the trick.

Another idea for this mod: give the AI units or commanders some supply generation, to compensate for the AI's incompetence at preventing starvation.

PvK

Re: "AI Balance" mod idea - feedback appreciated !
 

Well, I agree that we first need some testing done to see how AI build is influenced.
Unfortunately there's no "easy" way to observe what the AI build, and comparing builds with/without costs change will be even more difficult... And frankly I won't have enough time for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If IW could give us some hint at how AI chooses builds we could save lots of testing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif !

PvK,
Good idea about supply generation for AI commanders, will keep that in mind.