Vampire Queen mod
 

A lot of people think VQs are overpowered for their point cost. I am testing out some mods to try to fix this. Most of the VQ's powers are an instrinic part of her vampiric nature, so I went in a different direction by changing her item slots. Take a look and tell me what you think. Feel free to add this mod to any of your mods(Just be sure to credit me in the description). BTW - where can I get a free program to make a TGA banner?


#modname "VQ Fashion"

#description "This mod by Catquiet reduces the power of the Vampire Queen by removing the head, body, and feet item slots. Ultra-hip vampire queens must always dress in clothes that are at the height of fashion, even in the midst of battle."

#selectmonster 862

#itemslots 28678

#descr "The Vampire Queen is an ancient sorceress who has changed her very essence by imbibing the sacrificial blood of virgins. Secure in her immortality the Vampire Queen disdains the use of armor."

#end

[ April 16, 2004, 21:41: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I'm glad to see that someone is addressing the task of modding the Vampire Queen, I really don't think that chopping her slots is the way to go. Every other pretender has slots that sort-of correspond to their physical form - this idea of occupying slots with fashion accessories just doesn't sit well with me.

Apart from that, the VQ's power doesn't really derive from her slots - it's her many innate powers that are causing the imbalance. I'd like to see her lose etherealness, gain susceptibility to fire, and maybe cost a bit more as well.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I'm glad to see that someone is addressing the task of modding the Vampire Queen, I really don't think that chopping her slots is the way to go. Every other pretender has slots that sort-of correspond to their physical form - this idea of occupying slots with fashion accessories just doesn't sit well with me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">See if you like Version 2 of the mod any better, it is a bit more drastic.

Increased Dominion from 2 to 3
Increased Death from 1 to 3
Removed all item slots
Provided an explanation for not using items http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

If the VQ wants quickness, protection, luck, fire or lightning immunity, she will have to buy the path for it. The only nation that can afford to make her a really terrifying combat monster is Ermor and they will lose access to a lot of ritual spells since she can't boost her magic level with items like the Lich Queen.


#modname "VQ Fashion"
#description "This mod by Catquiet reduces the power of the Vampire Queen by removing all item slots. Ultra-hip vampire queens must always dress in clothes that are at the height of fashion, even in the midst of battle."
#selectmonster 862
#itemslots 1
#magicskill 5 3
#startdom 3
#descr "The Vampire Queen is an ancient sorceress who has changed her very essence by imbibing the sacrificial blood of virgins. The malignant power of the Vampire Queen quickly corrupts and ruins any magical items in her possesion."
#end

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I have said this before. The simple way to balance the Vamp Queen (I think the developers just missed this) is to make her very sucseptible to Fire. It follows every known theme to vampires and look at many other undead units and pretenders they are susceptiple to fire. It makes the most sense.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

Another well-received idea I suggested a long time back would be to make some "wooden stake" and perhaps other anti-vampire items and/or spells or rituals. Not currently moddable to make a specific anti-vampire or immortality-denying effect, though.

Succubbi also disdain body items, since they like to go nude, but seems to me a cloak would be a natural vampire type of item. Though, the body slot could be omitted and/or vampires could be given a built-in cloak item. With an interesting built-in cloak item, equipping armor might become less of a good deal. Personally I would tend to just reduce the combat skills of the VQ to achieve balance. Her powers make enough sense, but I don't expect her to also be a super-skilled warrior.

If one decided to strip her etherealness, I'd expect all the other vampire unit types to lose theirs too, or that wouldn't make much sense.

PvK

P.S. Seems to me another natural idea would be to lower vampires' magical resistance, since at least in film productions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif they tend to be susceptible to various silly countermeasures. However, it seems to be a Dom2 convention that all pretenders get MR 18 no matter what.

[ April 17, 2004, 20:40: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nasty evil Hoburgs could also afford her. I'm fond of Heat-3, Turmoil-3, Drain-3, Sloth-3, Misfortune-3, Growth-3.

They may be lazy, shiftless, chaotic, nasty who do nothing but sit around eating all day (cooking the food over fires made from the pages of the magic librams because they can't be bothered to chop wood), but they do breed like rats. Er, rabbits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I had mis-remembered how skilled she was. She's not all that great, at ST 13, Att 12, Def 12. Being ethereal, regenerating, flying and without fatigue make her deadly when combined with heavy armor, perhaps boots of quickness, and a dominion HP bonus on top of 23 base HP.

A summoned Vampire Lord is actually better, at ST 15, Att 13, Def 13, except that a pretender may have innate magic benefits, too.

So on second thought, I guess I wouldn't reduce the VQ's skills much or at all. Maybe just reduce Defense and/or Strength by 1-3 points. Or not.

Without redefining all the vampires in the game, I don't think there's much else to do. I suppose she's a good SC pretender for early expansion, of which there are others, and 110 points seems a reasonable price, no?

It might be nice to add some anti-vampire weapons, since the ethereal/flying/regenerating/immortal/life drain combo is pretty strong. On the other hand, there are already several very potent anti-undead weapons which will work, from banishment to the various triple-damage vs. undead magic weapons, and undead-bLasting magic spells and artillery items.

PvK

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

If you had anti-vampire weapons like Holy Water, or Garlic, or Garlic soaked in Holy Water. Then you better have weapons against other pretenders too so you don't make vampire queens incredibly underpowered.

Edit: I like the Pomegranate seeds idea

edit 2: fixed pomegranate spelling

[ April 19, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She's much more dangerous late game than in the early, as it's fairly easy to forge a couple of items to cover every weakness other than being undead. And there are very few nations that have access to lots of death mages for dust to dust.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Banishment won't work as a counter to anything but the most pathetic of undead units. It even has trouble against soul gate's undead with their high MR. The various anti-undead weapons will work ,
_if_ you can put them on something that won't be killed by breath of winter + soul vortex + fire shield, and that can hit her through a defense of more than 20 with several mirror images (quickness + sword of swiftness + experience boosts).

If double and triple elemental immunity were only avaliable from artifact class items with some other drawbacks then more nations would be able to counter her without building a comparable SC. As it currently stands however, the only real contenders for the job are C'Tis and Machaka. Everyone else should hope they get really lucky and find a Harab Seraph province to build enough death mages to counter a tricked out VQ.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

So how would you mod the VQ, Graeme?

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How would I do it? I'm not entirely sure. I'd probably increase her cost to 150 points to represent the fact that she's a better combat unit than the other immortals. I'd also increase the costs for new paths to somewhere between 50 and 80 so that she's less versatile. I'd try and make it so that Ermor would have to make a choice between a powerful combat pretender, and a powerful mage pretender, and not be able to have both in one package.

I'd really rather mod all the items however, so that none of them gave more than the 75% resist from the dragon scale armors. If you want multiple immunities, then you have to spend at least two slots to get them, which would leave you open to the other types of magic that you'll encounter.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I think I would keep or slightly decrease her cost and then bump her path cost way up, maybe to 80. Hardly anyone complains about vampire lords because they only get access to death and blood. It's only when you add in all the support spells that things start getting a bit ridiculous. Ermor can probably still afford a pretty badass VQ, but that's just the nature of Ermor.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

The problem with raising any costs is that you'll sabotage any games that presently exist: Every single game with one in it will be instantly rendered effectively unplayable. That can thus effectively be ruled out as an option. It would make more sense to lower the costs of other, currently considered unattractive, pretender chassis to make them more viable options.

Of course, as Graeme points out, the real issue at hand is probably the fact that Elemental Armor is TOO nice: Full immunity to any kind of elemental attack really reduces the number of ways you have to kill a tricked out no-encumberance SC with high defense and many shields....which can be done with more than just the VQ. If Elemental Armor was reduced to 75/all instead of full 100/all, as Graeme suggested, the problem would be far less pronounced.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One could always make a new unit that looks identical to the current one with a different ID number, and replace the one in the pretender choice screen with the new VQ.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

What do people consider to be a 'typical' SC Vampire Queen build? I really don't have much experience with SCs so im unsure in judging good performance from bad, and so i can't really tell if VQs are as bad as this thread implies.

And maybe add the 'next best thing', a Dragon or Dagon pretender or whatnot, for comparison.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It could be done with a mod, which would only affect games started with the mod, right? Then, after a respectable period of time has elapsed, the mod could be incorporated into a patch if it has gained general acceptance (in Illwinter's opinion).

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try one with Death 3, water 2, earth 2, air 4, fire 2. This is barely affordable for a couple of the living nations, and definetly available for the undead ermor themes. Research alteration 3, enchantment 1. Have her cast quickness, mirror image, mistform, breath of winter, ironskin. Send her out against a few different independent provinces to get an idea of how she speeds up expansion.

Later on, research up to alteration 7, construction 6, and give her some new items and toys to play with. I suggest something like:
Sword of swiftness, charcoal shield, starshine skullcap or spirit helmet, elemental armor, quickness boots, luck pendant, antimagic amulet.
Have her cast soul vortex, breath of winter, mistform, mirror image, phoenix pyre. Throw her at anything that comes into your dominion and watch the carnage.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

Lol, what have I started...

Ok, my take:

The imbalance from the VQ comes in my opinion from the fact that she's as good (or even better, if you invest in some magic) as the non-humanoid pretenders for early expansion, while being also as good (or better, depending on investment) as the humanoid ones for end-game purposes...no other pretender has such flexibility.

This is due IMO mostly to
1) the combination of Immortality +etherealness +regeneration +life leech,
2) the full item slots.

These are the points that should be addressed in the re-balancing IMO.

However, the Queen is far from invulnerable in the end game. I have yet to face a critter in this game that could not be killed.

The design in particular that Graeme is talking about is well fitted for dealing with troops, but will go down easily vs any SC designed as a duelist.

A cadre of death &/or astral mages should also be able to finish her easily, if protected by an apropiate meat shield.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, my second Version of the VQ mod takes care of the full item slots. Test it out and see if you like it.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Death mages could, astral mages definetly couldn't. In positive dominion, with both a skullcap and an AMA she will have a MR in the 30's.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I think it is appropriate to say that the VQ isn't totally invincible, as no units are.

However, while we can compare her to other near-invincible SC's and we can point out the few, specific counter-measures, she is still immortal, on top of all the rest. So yes, if you are playing the right race or have an SC designed to defeat her and you have researched the specific paths or created all the right items, you can *maybe* beat her in a given encounter.

Your victory forces her to re-spawn. As I see it, that's just an extra ability, a free "Returning" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try one with Death 3, water 2, earth 2, air 4, fire 2. This is barely affordable for a couple of the living nations, and definetly available for the undead ermor themes. Research alteration 3, enchantment 1. Have her cast quickness, mirror image, mistform, breath of winter, ironskin. Send her out against a few different independent provinces to get an idea of how she speeds up expansion.

Later on, research up to alteration 7, construction 6, and give her some new items and toys to play with. I suggest something like:
Sword of swiftness, charcoal shield, starshine skullcap or spirit helmet, elemental armor, quickness boots, luck pendant, antimagic amulet.
Have her cast soul vortex, breath of winter, mistform, mirror image, phoenix pyre. Throw her at anything that comes into your dominion and watch the carnage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doesn't that make the problem spawn from killer dominions? They have enough points to make an incredible SC where most living nations don't.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I suppose in addition to making the VQ vulnerable to fire and possibly removing an item slot or two, we could just increase her path cost. The IC rationale for the present cost seems to be that mortals are naturally more versatile than monsters, as they have no natural, exclusive affinity for a particular path. It seems to me the VQ is much more a creature of death and Ze Bludd than she is a human.
Complicating things a bit, I don't suppose we could have the VQ consume 1/2/3 blood slaves per round and, if these are unavailable, suffer a local Dominion loss/temporary Path loss/temporary stat loss/whatever? This probably won't solve the problem at hand, but it might add a bit of flavah.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

Death mages could, astral mages definetly couldn't. In positive dominion, with both a skullcap and an AMA she will have a MR in the 30's.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">MR of 30 or not, 30x Solar rays with damage boosted by Light of the N Star will take care of her.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

Honestly I think the whole problem with her is the life draining attack. But I guess changing that would be pretty much out of character.

So I guess just bumping up her cost to 125 or so, and increasing her magic path costs to 50 or so should help the problem.

But really the problem is the life drain attack. Make it armor piercing, heck make it add +10 damage or something wacky like that to "rebalance it." You can even reduce her cost. But if you remove the life drain I can guarantee that she will be much more "balanced."

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She will have to heal afflictions & re-forge all her gear again, which particularly in the case of dead Ermor is quite of a problem because of the narrowness of the national mages.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh....you want to make life drain BETTER? It already *IS* armor piercing, but currently adds 0 damage. You want to make it add +10 damage now? How's that balanced?

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh....you want to make life drain BETTER? It already *IS* armor piercing, but currently adds 0 damage. You want to make it add +10 damage now? How's that balanced? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think he meant give it +10 (or something) *instead* of life draining...

Correct me if I am wrong.

- Kel

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup that's what I meant. The life drain portion of the attack is what really makes the VQ go in the early game. Get rid of that, and "balance" it back with almost ANYTHING ( like a +10 AP attack, whatever! ) and she will not be an expanion machine.

She will probably still be pretty decenet with tons of high powered items, but that's ok. Almost all pretenders are pretty good with tons of high powered items. Maybe not as good as her, but heck she does cost 110 points.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

What makes vampires ethereal in the first place?

If it is a cloak (someone mentioned something about vampires and cloaks, thanks for him!), giving the Queen body armor would take the etherealness away. Make any weapon take away her life-draining attack, and take away one of her miscellanous item slots. She can't drain the blood if she whacks her enemies down with a sword, and surely some of those abilities come from magical amulets...

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

She's ethereal because vampires are generally considered to be all but immune to most conventional weapons.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

That, however, has the powerful side-effect of making her just about (if not completely?) immune to Wind Ride, which would otherwise be a convenient way for dealing with the immortality.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

The great thing about Dominions is that species and nations have themes. Therefore it should follow the undead theme -very susceptible to Fire damage. Also another thought - if this is possible - Make all vampire like units receive double damage versus lances (stake through the heart). Sure woulld make tactical battles more interesting. Those SC VQs would need some shield infantry support and it follows the vampire theme.

Those that do not think the VQ is overpowered either have never faced a human controlled tweaked VQ or they always play with one themselves.

[ April 19, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

The problem with VQ is that she can wear a variety of protective items and cast protective spells, making her very hard to damage; and then if she is damaged (probably for a small amount) she gets it back the next round from life drain.

If she has astral, even very high astral, she can be stopped by magic duel (backed by Banner of the Northern Star, Power of the Spheres, and potentially communion). If she brings her own banner carrier and/or communion slaves, kill them first.

If she doesn't have astral, even 20 MR won't stop a gang of mages spamming Soul Slay forever. You could do suicide runs with Inner Sun (How much damage does it do? Is there an MR save? Is it elemental?)

Is the VQ inanimate, and if so, is she affected by Shatter? (100 PREC, no MR save, 35+ armor negating damage... ouch!) Gifts from Heaven is hard to cast (Evo 5, Earth 3 Astral 1), but does 150 non-elemental damage with no MR save - if it hits. And of course, if she is given fire susceptibility, it'll be harder to avoid Holy Pyre, Just Mans Cross, Flambeau and Angelic Host. Dust to Dust and Wither Bones are effective if they hit, but require Death magic.

You can horror mark her and call horrors, but I don't know how effective that would be against a really super supercombatant. AFAIK you can't call Doom Horrors or the King of the World. (Call Doom Horror would make a cool Blood 9 spell...) Although maybe if you have enough people use Hell Power, you'll get the KotW to show up on his own.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a long time since I read "Dracula", but IIRC you would need more than double damage to emulate the wooden stake thing. The idea (I think) was that if you get the heart then it kills for sure, but if you miss it does nothing. Incremental damage plays no part in this.

If this could be implemented, then I agree it would be an effective and thematic way to downpower the VQ.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I was thinking the wooden stake would be a cheap misc slot magic item with the effect that if that character defeats a vampire using hand-to-hand combat, then the vampire's immortality doesn't work. That is, wooden stakes aren't melee weapons, but tools for permanently getting rid of vampires who are already in a helpless state.

PvK

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I'd remove Immortality first of all. Vampires can be killed.

The Fly is very useful, but I'd change it ... Vampires fly as bats, so it would be nice if this flying movement wouldn't allow to attack cause it's assumed the Vampire is in his bat form ... well he could change aspect at will ... but we've to limit it.

Regeneration ... why they regenerates? In fact Vampires are very healthy, but they drain life from their victims ... I'd add recuperation (that is now useful because Immortality fades in the void).

His draining attack ... I'd remove it cause VQ cannot bite in battle so easily without exposing herself to enemy strikes.

Ethereal ... this is fine.

Raise the new path cost ... to 70 or 80.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But not by normal means, i.e. melee. The immortality is definitely thematic, but I like PvK's method of removing it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that this would involve programming a new kind of flying. All units that fly currently can fly to attack.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Draining is perhaps the most recognizable and thematic trait of a vampire.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But strictly speaking, it should be mistform. If you're looking for something to axe, this is a candidate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For sure.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

Has anyone tried modding Mistform instead of Ethereal for all vampire units and tried that out instead? Vampire myths aren't always consistent on how exactly they should be killed; Carmilla, for example, written in the 1840's, seems to emphisise decapitation and burning as well as staking. And neither are peculiarly magical forms of attack.

From some tests its clear any flying unit with regen, life drain, ethereal, mistform, MI, quickness, high prot/attack is going to kick ***, just some kick it more than others.

Another giant problem is life drain that early in the game. Once successful attack replenishes her fatigue, which is just as if not more important than the life siphoned off.

The basic problem with the VQ is that she just simply has too many natural spell effects. Get rid of a couple of them and she should be alright.

IMO get rid of fear (beauty), replace ethereal with mistform (so she has to use a cloak instead of armor) (and should be done for all vampires), remove regen (already has life drain), strength to 10 or 11. And maybe change Life Drain globally to not siphon or remove as much fatigue.

Edit: and change Immortality to not work if unit is fatigued out (100+).

[ April 20, 2004, 03:22: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fatigue replenishment isn't important at all to a 0 encumbrance unit unless you are dealing with lots of opponents with air or astral magic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This would harm all the non-undead units a huge amount more than the undead ones.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Including the Liches? That would make them utterly useless as they will always be fatigued as spellcasters. I don't see why reforming their bodies automatically should have anything to do with whether they are conscious or not.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm probably right, i added that suggestion without thinking it through as much at the end of the post. I also forgot the VQ was a 0 encumberance unit. However, fatigue does degrade a units defense and makes it easier to hit, and a VQ does have to accumulate some fatigue to cast her support magic. It might only help 10%, but it would help if that starting fatigue stayed with her longer. But your right about the immortality.

An ideal solution might be to change the Undead attribute into a unique Vampire attribute. That way you could easily add certain balancing weaknesses. Vampires are certainly undead but i think you could make a case that they are sufficiently different in the fiction to merit their own catagory. After all you don't have to die to become a vampire, or at least 'death' has some different meaning than death for something like an undead zombie.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

[quote]Originally posted by SelfishGene:

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice: [qb]After all you don't have to die to become a vampire, or at least 'death' has some different meaning than death for something like an undead zombie.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In a sense, this already exists, though it isn't specific to just vampires. There are undead, such as VQ, and then there are mindless undead, such as souless, skellies, etc. However, a lot of anti-SC spells that make use of this distinction, like soul slay and paralyze(which work vs. undead, just not mindless units), are MR based and thus, not terribly effective against even an economy pretender.

Not saying they should, necessarily, since it would make other SC pretenders worse. Of course, with immortality, I don't think it would be imbalanced...heck, instead of all teh complicated options, maybe all the VQ needs is an innately low MR http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

Dropping the immunity that undead have to Vengeance of the Dead might also help. Let mindless commanders be immune -- without a mind, it's probably hard to dream -- but those with minds, sure. Unless the idea is that undead don't sleep and therefore don't dream?

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um. This depends a lot on just what mythology one uses as one's point of reference. I've ran into some (Middle Eastern? It's been a while and I'm not sure) tales speaking of a critter which wasn't frightfully powerful whilst alive (and not REALLY dead, and also capable of seeing daylight, an' some other "non-standard" stuff), but to kill it (and keep it dead) one would have to decapitate it, burn the head and body seprately, and scatter the respective ashes in such a way that ne'er the twain would meet. Or go with (Russian?) ones that posit a more lichy vampire, who would be physically strong, and when killed (in whatever unexceptional manner one chose), would need to be burnt... but when ya tried to burn it, a host of vermin (rats, newts, snakes, worms, etc.) would issue forth from the body with no goal but escape. And if one solitary lil' critter got away, well, all that hard work killin' an' burnin' yer vamp would go up in smoke...

[Edit: oh, and the bit about seperating heads and bodies (lest death not be fatal) pops up in some of the European vampire myths, too.]

[ April 20, 2004, 16:50: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps remove the flying ability and have it shapechange into a vampiric bat? The bat would be immortal, flying, head+misc+misc slots and have harpy-like stats.

But to get it consistent you would have to do the same for other vampires - shapechanging non-commanders might not work too well.

Removing regen would probably make the vq rack up a LOT of afflictions with the low base hp, but they go away quick. So why not?

[ April 20, 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: mivayan ]

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thats close to my take on it also. But I think that when modding for balance purpose its simple the matter of making the smallest change possible there solve the problem! (and not creating any new).
The problem is not that she can aniliate entire armys, thats ok, someone has to be able to do it! The problem is that some races don't have a counter to the SC Version of her, on a battlefield.

And with that I see 2 points lined out.

Either the elemental army is to strong for her, or her cost of having new magic path is to small.

Well taking away her armour sloth, or linking the etherealness to not wearing an armour would be a minor change, but with big impact.
Because how does that relate to other ethereal pretenders being able to wear armours? (well maybe write a story that she is to selfobsessed to wear an armour ...)

Changing the cost of magic path sounds elegant, but that actual just disallow her to be played as a rainbow pretender. Besides that I dont know if a change of the cost of new magic paths would give all nations a battle change against her. would she just be buffed a little less and still be unkillable? Bringing me back to let her be without a armour sloth (if thats enough)!

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Couldn't possibly disagree more. Soul Vortex+basic life drain attack+mad combat skillz and plenty of item slots makes for a truly spectacular SC, but one not nearly as powerful as a Fire Shielded, mistformed, Mirror Imaged, Invulnerable(If you feel like giving her a robe rather than heavy armor to go with her 0 encumbrance), Quickened, Breath of Wintery and, above all, Phoenix Pyred VQ.
Mind you, Soul Vortex, Phoenix Pyre(And other fire 2 or fire 1 spells), 0 encumbrance and a life drain attack still make for some spectacular bang for nearly any conceivable buck, but there are ways to get around such an SC's inexhaustible fatigue. I suspect raising the cost of new paths for the VQ, and probably raising her base cost a bit, too, would resolve this issue nicely.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

I'm also unburying this thread from page 2 because I just had a tiny idea.

Comment1: In a current MP game I did very well against an enemy VQ in at least one battle early game (she had no items) with nothing but elephants (those merc ones). Trample seems to be very nice, and there is no defense against it except etheralness, unless I am mistaken.
Comment2: Wont any undead units be really good against a VQ since she cant drain them?
Together with comment1: Behemoths would do the trick nicely.
(Just as a counter; VQ still is a good indy-conquerer.)

Question: Would anybody find it out of theme to remove her Etheralness? I thought vampires should be staked through the heart etc., never pictured them as etheral. People found that etheralness was one of her big strengths when paired with her other abilities (not that it couldnt be added with a Robe of Shadows or Body Etheral).

Suggestion: Ditch the etheralness, jack the price to 140, (Reduce Magic Resistance to 16 (I know that is bizarre)??), leave everything else alone. (Seems as a master of magic she shouldn't have to pay more than 50 at the most for new spell paths, and it seems she *should* be a master of magic.)


Well dunno just my newbie two cents.

Re: Vampire Queen mod
 

trampling is based on defence IIRC (base attack 10 vs the defence of the target)