National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

(I'm Italian ... excuse me for my bad english and many mistakes)

I and other players are trying games with Immobile pretenders (Map Move 0, still teleport however) and Humanlike pretenders (those with New Path Cost 10).
In my opinion these games are far more enhancing cause army counts more ... however it ends up as usual, with players usings super combatants, summons and so on ... and the Nation counts only in the early game, where you've to fight Indies to expand.

National armies and mages become almost useless ... so on where's the fun of the tactical differences beetween Nations? Are battle fought by singles or armies? Well ... I don't want to seek another game, cause I like Dom2 for many things I cannot find in other games (fatigue, magic sites search, nice Nations and so on) but I think these things will limit the games a lot ...

Troops become swordfodder and sieging mass ... stop.
Mages are overriden by magic summons, and so on ... where's going the peculiarity of a Nation ... his typical troops ... if we fight with Season summons, Kings or Queens of elements, and so on ?
Gold soon becomes inflated ... only to build forts and temples, and some labs ... because all is around magic gems ... and so on.
I'm not saying to remove these things ... only to make them more difficult to have (few people like difficult or v.difficult research ... and however it's only a matter of time usually ... but this could give more lifetime to armies and troops). This inflate too some scales (like productivity ... why should I produce troops if only 1 SC slaughter them all without any risk ... and I give him experience?).

Think on something a Jhoanne d'Arc, blessed by God (like a Prophet SC) can defeat English by herself ... or was she backed by huge armies of infantry, nobles and knights and so on?

Leaders are fine ... reclutable ones ...
Battle spellcasting is almost, except for some too powerful spells (like Breathe of Winter).

But I'll put more difficult Rituals and weaker summons ... or at least more expensive ... so gold, castles, production are still worthing.
And limit the SC ... perhaps limiting the magic items (like somewhat they goes conflicting by themselves) to less slots, or you've to put Magic Items of a lone element (ie ... I put the Boots of Quickness, ... so on I cannot put on the same char other items except those with a cost of only water gems, OR with a cost in water gems and other element, but Water Gems required are >= of the other element. This because different magic conflicts).
Limit pretender fighting abilities ... giving them a role of sages, arcane wizards, forecasters, and so on ...

Leave the hard work to battle mages and huge armies of national troops, raised by castles, gold and production!
Don't seek the best combo of magic item to give regen, ethereal, quickness and so on to your SC ... study tactics, plan how to cut withdrawal to enemy, build a strong economy to have bigger armies, add more hiding troops to ambush the enemy, and so on.

Well ... this is my opinion (I know this would change a lot the game), but I want to know yours.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

If you set research to very difficult and magic site frequency low a mid-sized game will be over well before summons and SCs are the only forces worth fielding.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

The problem is in finding players willing to play with these settings.

And I love magic sites because now it's a strenght of a rainbow pretenders ... not fighting but an "explorer" of arcane sites ... who's seeking power ...

And some magic sites are nice because adds some troops you usually cannot recruit, but don't unbalance the game cause they'ren't overpowered ...

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm no expert by any means, but. Following all these discussions about SCs and how they can only be countered with ones alike them, I'm getting a feeling that there's a classical "When the only tool you've got is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" problem at work. (Have to admit, though, that SCs are a bit like "When only tool you've got is a shotgun, every problem starts to look for an exit" solution)

I mean, if you believe every fight can be won only with SCs, then the game turns into a battle between individuals. Of course you're going to lose if you send masses of regular troops against something that's purposefully devised to slay masses of regular troops. Don't. All things (should) have a weakness or two.

Enemy using say arch devils? Send a couple of mages to freeze 'em dead. Something invulnerable to elements? Paralyze - soul slay - enslave mind. Invulnerable to elements, absurd MR? Acid/magma spells, other armour negaters. Use troops to keep those big guys busy while the mages do their work, if they use life drain put undead boneshield instead.

They start having small squads to help their big guys in battle? Kill the normies, rest will rout. They start to imitate you, putting forth number of mages protected by some screen? Mass Flight is your life-saver. Massed troops? There are more army bLasting spells than I remember out of hand.

You're bound to take losses, just make sure your opponent is hurt more.

Of course, I'm proven myself I'm absolutely lousy in crafting anything heavy-hitting, so have resorted to national mages and troops. Nearly all of the aforementioned has been achieved by one nation's national mages, so they do have uses. You just can't send them off everywhere without planning first a bit.

But then again, I'm sure there's some SC lurking even in my current MP just waiting to prove me wrong. Can't wait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

All the way through my MP games, I recruit national mages & troops every single turn.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Put a limped, crippled unit in the rear, with hold and attack ... the rearmost you can.

Use some units to absorb spells, like LI ... and let SC doing the hard job.

What I mean is ... all the army should do the job, not army takes hits and deceives enemy spells, and SC slaughter all the things.

And with magic items you can be invulnerable to almost all things ... perhaps some death magic spells ...

_________________________________
Wendingo, you'll find when you start wars with other humans, and not Indies, that soon your troops will be slaughtered and become swordfodder to cover big monsters.

[ April 25, 2004, 10:14: Message edited by: Cohen ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if I field them as fodder, which is not usually the case.

I guess our MP experiences differ, I have yet to face a 'big moster' that couldn't be killed. And when it comes to duelling, the right combination of mages+troops+SCs will beat lone/Groups of SCs any day.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Troops always comes along with SC, but not ordinary troops, but summons ...

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

When it comes to summoned monsters, perhaps part of the problem here is that so few of the summoned creatures require upkeep or supplies. Without upkeep or supplies to worry about, the only limit to the amount of magical troops you can summon is your gem income and the availability of mages.

What if summoned units required an upkeep in gems? While we're at it, how about the same for global and long-Lasting local enchantments? That would make it much more difficult to use summoned monsters as the core of your armies.


On the topic of Super Combatants, I don't have enough MP experience yet to know how bad it really is out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But from what I read on this forum, when people are complaining about SCs being too powerful, what they are really talking about always seems to be Vampire Queens. So is this really just an aspect of the VQ issue? Or is she just the worst offender?

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I thought you were worried about the fact that national troops and mages became worthless in the endgame. I got that victory with Caelum. I also had access to some SCs, but I thought that this more "basic" army would be better in this case. I posted it as an example of what a normal army with national mages can do.

My frontline consisted of Living Statues, and they were even slower than I had expected. My Mammoths got stuck behind them instead of going for a trampling trip. It seems that (even) more "basic" frontline would have been better. But as I said I was Caelum, I didn't have Temple Guards to hold the frontline and my Iceclads had better things to do... In my games, my weak Caelians have many uses. Flying in melee to get killed by Ulmians is not one of them. Mages are one of the strengths of Caelum. Why would I have to not use them? There are better nations for playing with strong melee armies. Ulm, Steel theme of Pangaea, Jotunheim for those fond of elite armies, Abysia has heavy infantry although their mages are a major power for them.


You have told that you dislike the current system where proper SCs can destroy whole armies, and mages and magic are best ways to get rid of them. What would you propose as a way of getting rid of SCs, then?

Big armies? What use would SCs be then? Your army would have to take the first punch and if they routed, your SC would die soon after. SCs woudln't have any role left, as they wouldn't be able to kill armies all alone and they couldn't even change the tide of battle, as the basic armies would decide that, too.
Many physically stronger pretenders would lose much of their interest, as putting them to the front line can get them useless even now when they potentially can kill whole armies.

Also, are you sure you have tried all the mundane ways of killing strong units? X-bows work against units with high protection in general, and Wraith Sword leaves most creatures without shield. Undead frontline distracts him and renders his lifedraining worthless while your x-bows make some new holes through him... And given enough crossbows even if he gets his life back he will eventually die. Also, remember the afflictions! Afflictions and fatique are the two things that will take down any SC. And either one is enough!

[ April 25, 2004, 15:37: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I think they simply need to add in a spell or two that dispel's buff's in combat. Maybe someone has already suggested this and its not a good idea for some reason, but a SC usually isn't a SC until they buff themselves up with a few choice spells. So throw in the ability to dispell their buff's... or at least dispel the buff's of a random individual. That way they are forced to take an large army to reduce the chance the SC's buffs are dispelled, and if they take a large army it can be routed.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

My experience is that SC units are vulnerable to single-target spells like Petrify (a sucessful resist versus petrify mean that SC is paralyzed) or Soul Slay. They CAN be debuffed with things like armor-destroying spells. For SC with very high protection, get some units (e.g. trolls) with very high strength. 25 protection is near invulnerability against 10-strength unit, but not so hot against a 22-strength unit.

Sure, this is not the army-army encounters you are looking for, but that is what I like about the game - there are many different stragtegies and counters. Plus, SC cannot hold territory very well, or pillage, or take castles. Also, drop a couple of your enemies SC (each with half-dozen expensive items) with a couple level 3 astral mages casting soul slay, and he may start thinking about another strategy.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I am not the most experienced player but...I think that SC's definitely do make *most* regular armies obsolete in the late game (though mages for many nations can always be deadly in mass, try a communion based nation like arco/pythium). Eventually, wishing for doom horrors, by all accounts, is going to make your HI pretty meaningless.

What I don't necessarily agree with is that this is a problem. If the game was always dependent on basic troops, I think every game would end with people getting bored and quitting after hundreds of turns of marching HI around the board, with the way the game currently flows.

Additionally, it is clear, by looking at pretenders, that the developers have tried to make pretender SC's a viable option for either the early game or the late game but not both (notice how most good early SC's have limited item slots ?). Not withstanding a couple of SC's <cough> VQ <cough> that might violate this rule...

I am not sure what maps you are playing on but you might try a larger map. Your armies will always be busy trying to expand and conflicts that you have will occur over more territories than you can cover.

- Kel

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

My take on it is that the core of the problem is not that SC can butcher whole armys , but that they are invulnerble as they do it!
(but I second that summons and no upkeep are part of the problem to - magical upkeep would be nice payed in gems!)

But the core comes down to 2 things.
The open ended dice system, and truly invulnerbilitys in form of 100% resistance. This makes SC limmmitless supirior to normal troops

as a exsample
Lets say that a game had a cap on restances ,say 90% meaning that no matter what 1/10 of damage went trough , and lets say that nomatter what the attack/defense and protecktion/strength differentse that alwas at least 1/10 hits would do damage. And 1/19 that would miss

There would absolut still be a reason to make SC, but they would not be invulnerble, and if balanced right there could be a reason to make the SC that could do the job of hitting thesse numbers and still be affordble to loose!

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think that summoned units are a problem at all, since most aren't that impressive by themselves, or have extremely large gem costs.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I cannot see any way in which having open ended dice benefits high stat units more than normal units. Take protection for example. Even with a protection of 30, a unit will quite regularly be damaged by normal troops when hit. Without open ended dice, it would be impossible to damage a unit with a high enough protection value.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I agree, the open-endedness is a GOOD thing: It means that no matter how high your protection value is, there's still a chance you'll be hit.

If anything, that works AGAINST SCs, since there's no point at which you can be truly totally invulnerable.

I agree, however, that Elemental Armor's 100% resist all is TOO nifty. Perhaps reducing it to 75% all would be more reasonable.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">75% puts it on par with the dragon armors, which admittedly have better encumbrance values, but are also a construction 6 item instead of construction 4.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The dragon armors also give only 75% to a SINGLE resist, as opposed to all of them. If this might make it too poor, maybe 90%, if such a resist level exists. As you yourself stated, 100% resist all may be a little too mean. At least he'd still be vulnerable to headshots.

[ April 25, 2004, 21:56: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know. Giving the Elemental armour, which is a relatively cheap, construction 4 level item 75% resistance to three elements makes it much more useful than the dragon armours. I would suggest making the elemental armor only 50% resist, as this is as good as elemental fortitude.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I place the blame solely on the fact that while your SCs get better with exp and improved forged items and your Summonables improve with more magical research, your mundane units stay the same for the whole game. Please read the following with an open mind.

I think Dominions should have a tech system for your nations which improves normal soldiers by upgrading units or unlocking new and more powerful units. This could be done by researching technology or paying for improved facilities (like MoM). For an example, let's say you start the game being able to train Tien Ch'i Footmen with full leather armor and a spear, standard puny Horsemen with a light lance, level 2 priests, Eunuchs, and a weak magician (weaker than masters of the way). You can build a Blacksmith to open up more options for your nation, giving the ability to train Footmen with scale mail hauberks/cuirasses/whatevers and also unlocking glaives and pikes. Another building is the Fletcher, which gives you access to Footmen with shortbows, and combined with the Blacksmith, allows you to train armored Footmen armed with shortbows. When you get basic buildings, more advanced ones are unlocked, like, say, an Armory after you a Blacksmith and Fletcher. Armories unlock full scale mail armor, tower shields, falchions, and lances for the province with it. This would mean the ability to recruit Heavy Footmen (like the ones from Spring and Autumn) and Heavy Horsemen. After you make a Fletcher, the Bowyer building becomes available and it lets you recruit Composite bowmen and Crossbowmen, again, you can combine these arms with the Armory weapons for better armored archers. As these second teir buildings are created, more are unlocked and you have more racial buildings, like, say, a Celestial Enchantery, which unlocks armors and weapons with special abilities for your troopers. Since Celestial spells use Astral magic, it would give you Astral influenced weapons like bows that give a chance to temporarily blind enemies (much like that Solar Brilliance spell, but watered down) or Herald Weapons that give units improved morale. And so on and so forth. There be separate tech "trees" for separate types of units, like Monasteries to unlock better priests and magical places to unlock better casters. Buildings could be racial, so Tien Ch'i would have beaurucratic offices and imperial palaces that give access to nobility units like the General, Prince General, Imperial units, and the Red Guard while Abysia makes breeding grounds that gives you access to more crossbred units and Machakans can venture further into the bowels of the Godwall to unlock the secrets for more and better sorcerors and spider assassins. Of course, there will be a couple of different tech paths for each nation so you'd want to decide if you want better priests, infantry, ranged units, mages, and etcetera.

Also, to build buildings should require more time for this idea to work, so you don't instantly have flambeau-wielding, weightless-armor wearing, supercharged, crack elite soldiers while everyone could still only summon Fall Bears and Vine Ogres. Perhaps build speed would be linked to the total of strength or HP among the soldiers the building commander leads.

This idea would definitely not come in a patch, but it would be head-explodingly cool in a Dominions 3.

What does everyone think about this?

On a side note, I agree that Elemental Armor should be toned down.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

What summons? Ethereal beasts, like seasonal spirits or Ether monsters? Or masses of undead critters? Or any other summons with lor protection?

Cast Blade Wind a few times.

If he has low-mr critters, don't bother with Soul Slay and like. Go staright for Control or Opposition! Or if those aren't magical creatures (and even if they are) Charm should work just okay.

Also, you can use some nice magic items to give out awesome amounts of damage. As an example, Banefire is a wonderful spell that dishes out lots of armor-negating damage. Give Sceptre of Corruption (blood-4?, artifact) to someone with Bots of Quickness, and an Eye of Aiming if he nees it. Give him some bodyguards that have a chance against lesser horrors so that he stays up for a few more turns. Go Killing Them. You need some distraction for a while, so recruit cheap indies. put them before your real troops. And remember that fatique is the greatest enemy of SCs! After they have slaugheter your militia (if no life-draining) or soulless(if they have life-draining) they have collected some fatique, and now your elites can go to kill him. Remember, even as his fatique goes up he has been the targeted by most your mages and other comanders... Including those using items for Banefire, and those having Bow of Botulf, Cyclop's Bane (what's the real name of that bow?), Rod of the Phoenix, whatever. I haven't really tried it out in action, but I have killed few SC's in my MP-games. I didn't bother putting militia to the front, as my elites were more than a match for those Ulmite black pates... And Fall Bears met Blade Wind.

This might have become somewhat longish... Well, I started writing it as my 0.02?. I think it's about 0.07? ATM. Many of my favourite tricks I have never had the possibility to try out in multi.

[ April 25, 2004, 12:12: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

How can this be a problem?

There is already a solution, mentioned earlier in the thread - playing a game with difficult research and fewer sites makes for a more "national" game.

If you want loads of high level magic, then expect it to take over. Either that or agree with everyone which spells none of you are going to use before the game starts, but I'd go with the low research and magic option if I were you.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I'm not asking how to deal with them, how to use Y to counter X.

I'm saying, as you told ... Fall Bear and SC ... and all the Ulmish infantry? Disappeared?

And what did you told about? Magic items, spells and so on ...

Militia ... swordfodder.
Elite ... to intervene only when enemy is fatigued?

What battle is this???
From militia to elite troops should be the BULK of the battle, not magic items, or SC or summons nor mages. Instead they're.

I prefer xbow to counter knights, light cav to make knights wasting lance, militia to fatigue enemy heavy inf, archers to take down light infantry and so on ...
This is strategy & tactics ...
We add some mages casting some spells and so on ...

I'd add a morale malus if there'sn't at least one commander leading the squad in battle ... so fighting commanders are valued too ... if national troops are enhanced and used.

Add new scales like Military, or Backsmithing ...
something like you can have a pre move in the battle or to improve little you common soldier equipment ... something similar to add strenght to troops ...

Drain/Magic scale can affect magic or summoned units too ... they tend to fade away if there'isnt't enough Magic or their full strenght is at Dominion 10 ... and they become weaker the less the Dominion is ...

And so on


PS: For fatigue ... well, relief spell, summon earthpower, renvigoration, earth blessing, girdle of might, amulet of resilience and so on ... so it'sn't such a burden ... oh damn ... a VQ or an Undead SC doesn't suffer from fatigue at all (in combat).

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Even with very difficult research, you eventually reach the part of the game where magic dominates, it just doesn't happen insanely fast.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

The problem is that most players want "standard" settings ...

I agree with Nation enhancments, but not to standard troops ...

New weaponry, tactic and so on Scales ...
Another set of scales ... to improve common units.

A dispelling battle spell ... another spell enabling to give "magic attribute" to weapons of common troops.

Not all summons are good ... well, let's do only the good summons ...

I'm not saying mages are bad ! Instead I agree and use a lot National Mages ... because they're included in Nation peculiarity.

SC should be not "Super Combatant" but "Good Combatant", even I'll do less powerful items, and more standard type magic item, that not increase only morale but even other things.

Change the rule of the assassins ... pre-fight with only bodyguard on 75% chance ... on 25% assassins avoid them (they should be skilled in that) ... because in a month the assassin should find a nice moment to strike, and start directly near the victim and with the first action cause surprise ... I suppose an assassin strike when the victim is distracted, with a starting backstab.

Here I see however plenty of ideas there can fit in.
I'll add more when I concretize them, I hope only Illwinter devs read there and do something.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

As long as a particular SC is not immune to every element, then most national mages should not have too much trouble dealing with it. Air mages have thunder strike, fire mages have incinerate, water mages have frozen heart, and earth mages have petrify. For undead SC's, astral nations always have communion and Light of the Northern Star to boost the damage of solar rays. Astral fires is also a good possibility. Death mages have many spells to use against undead SC's, and have drain life against most other things. Blood mages are not really very good on the battlefield, but can field their own SC's and devils, which are both very effective. Nature magic doesn't have a lot that will help, although charm can be quite effective against non-pretenders.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fewer sites and hard research WOOT! Let's play! I call a blood nation!

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Huzurdaddi makes a good point, and so does Cohen. Standard settings on Aran (at least for me) almost always makes normal soldiers obsolete after 1/4 of the game.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Huzurdaddy told a right thing ... Magic Site freq should be "related" to the magic site freq settings, so Slaves found are correlated to gems founded.

Well, for mages taking out SC, as Graeme told, isn't very easy because there's SC-Fodder shielding them, attracting the spells ...
so on SC vs SC is almost the lone chance ...

The fact is that one single unit, pretender, Sc or similar, should't actually destroy any regular army. And why I've to stop an SC only by magic? What Ulm can do? Where's the strength of stell, the valour of soldiers, the epic of heroic acts, and battle tactics if all solve with magery and related summons?

Who win the game?
Who's the most clams ... who has the best research and the more gems, and best SCs.

Nation matters only early expansion ...
I know sometimes I repeat myself ... but I've very fond in this topic.
____________________________
Most magic summons have high morale (like undead), so very difficult to rout, and not only, high morale prevents them from repelling, and distruct any Awe benefits ... this is to solve too ...
Awe can work as a "X damage Shield" on Magic and Undead creatures...

What to do for repel?

[ April 26, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Cohen ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

And don't forget more that's great about blood with rules like this : you don't need research!

Construction 2 : Soul Contract! YAY!
Blood 3: Bind Devil
Blood 5: Bind Ice Devil

Honestly I don't think I need anymore than that.

Hell I probably don't even need more than Soul Contract!

YAY! Let's even make research super-duper hard!

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other than your initial pretender SC, if you choose to use one, all of those are obtained by early expansion. Which, even if oyu have an SC pretender, you are still using troops for.

If you make troops retain their strength throughout the whole game, we will be micro-managing troops around 40 provinces for hours each turn and people will just quit the game.

I personally think that baseline troops being outdated in the end game was a design decision and a good one at that.

- Kel

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your mages will automatically target the highest hitpoint units that are close to them on the battlefield, so they will almost always go for any SCs that are present. If they don't, then you don't have enough mages.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulm has to use independent mages, elemental immune summons like mechanical men, and a tough pretender. That's just the way Ulm plays.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yes, that is kind of the point really. If you aren't keeping up with research then you will lose in a game that involves powerful magic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What about repel? It only works 50% of the time against normal morale soldiers anyways, so it's not like its a particularly powerful effect.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Kel I believe a lover of strategy, and not a power player, enjoys building up a strong economy to support armies, having reinforcments lines, and keep in mind logistics and terrain surface (I'll put rules too for terrain type, so as Knights in Mountain provinces should fight dismounted, LI have armor bonus in forest and mountain provs because they skirmish while HI should fight in close formations --- graphic for skirmish is difficult to set, or better a code that spread the group out --- well all these modifiers should be applied to gold and production cost ... I made some examples of terrain affecting battle units).

I enjoy having 40 provinces and to manage my armies there and there ...
I enjoy preparing army setup.

Well ... I'm Italian and I could talk about ancient rome warfare like Pithium, only related to common units you can know.
Velites had pilums, rushed forward skirmishing to avoid enemy fire better, throw the pilums and started retreating or flanking.
Hastati was the first line, the green troops, to soften the enemy with more pilum and hand-to-hand combat, and to fatigue them.
Princeps comes after, veteran troops ... hardened fighters, and the second line would cover the retreat of the first.
Triarii were the first, the eldest of the army, that soon have to leave and be granted to have a piace of land where to live. And were far more better than Princeps ... and they cover the second line in case of routing.

This is a strategy. That will be avoided at all by "I take the big guy who does all the work ... and a little shielding forces to take the first hits and spells".

Someone of you have ever played a wargame ... those games with hexes grilled map, and square hardpaper pieces with strange simbols (usually a rectagle with X inside were infantry, with / were cavalry, and so on; sometime something more fancy like the shapes of the unit type) to represent troops with their stats (usually move and strenght, att and def, or only one representing both of them ... sometimes having morale too, leadership and so on). And you've to think about artillery support fire, weather, if your troops are supplied (not only food... ammo too), and many things?
Well perhaps is because I play these games since I was 6 years old (started with Napoleon Last Battle ... don't remember the house producint it, perhaps Avalon Hill) I like so much deep strategy ... and Dom2 has and high potential value to improve his already very good strat value.
_________________________
Repel should be changed ... a morale check should represent the fear of becoming struken by the longer weapon the enemy handle, not the skill to enter the enemy defence without taking a strike.
I believe it's better:
Repel is an Defender Attack Skill vs Attacker Attack Skill ... if defender hits, attackes take one normal it by common rules. If he doesn't he takes 1 damage, as usual, or 0.
Attacker should attack in each case, even if it had taken an hit or less.
_____________________________
Some spells like the undead striking forces of 33 mounted longdead is too cheap, as Earth Attack, and many others.

[ April 26, 2004, 04:10: Message edited by: Cohen ]

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I did some snipping but I think it's all still in context...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I played Empires In Arms when I was 15 or so, as well as several other AH and SSI games. They had their place and they were good for occupying mass amounts of time (and Mountain Dew) but they weren't the only kind of 'real' strategy game, they were just one kind. No offense but played as a PBEM, *those* games would take many, many years. I mean years -very- literally with absolutely no hyperbole or exageration, years! I mean, I bet by the time you finished a game, everyone else would be playing Dom3, maybe Dom4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I would not really like to see Dom2 changed from an unusually deep fantasy wargame to an ultra-realistic (but bogged down) epic monster wargame. Those are just my feelings, of course, but I feel that the 'pacing' of the game is pretty good already and reducing the power of magic, summons and SCs would only drag out a game until everyone got bored, quit and noone was really satisfied.

I could be wrong, though. You could make a poll to see how people feel about the pacing if you like. Games Last too long ? Not long enough ? Just right ?

- Kel

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I played wargames on table, not Pc ...

I'm not telling about how long should be a Dom2 game however ... only to rebalance it giving more importance to National Troops/Mages, even in mid and later game.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Hotknife: Dominions 2 doesnt have extensive province/city upgrade features, this is intentional. Adding the sort of buildings and upgrade paths you suggest would take dominions down a road that have been consciously avoided, so it is unlikely that it will ever appear in any possible future inststallment expansion or patch.

As for avoiding of super combatants, play with rich, slow research, low site frequency and agree to not pick blood nations, use a smaller map. And with curse and a few choice items or spells, most supercombatants can be countered, obviously it costs a bit but it should, since most supercombatants represent a significant investment in gems and research effort.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did certainly not explain my self clearly when I said that the core problem is the open enden dice system. Though I tried, so I try again

In theory the open enden system is good. But the actual numbers make it a lot bigger advantages to the SC than to the weak troop, than a regular non open system where there INSTEAD is a cap, as exsample in form of a 10% hits always miss and and 10% always hits no matter what modifiers on rolls!

Don't let the open ende dice delude you, they are very big advantages to Super Combetants,

Modifiers on +7 or 8 hits the 10 % mark I gives as an exsample. All differense bigger than that and the open ended dice system is an advantage to the better unit.

a unit with protection 30 would only take damaged from a light infantery in around 1/200 times.

But the reason i mention it is that was not to do number chrunching but to point at the fact , that the game could be balanced to ensure that the weakest unit had a value against the best.

when using fixed numbers (always miss/hits) a game can support a situation where its a waste to use the biggest guns in a battle as there are others doing it just aswell, and more affordble to loose/get hurt at least.

I like to think of encumberence and afflicktions as the modifier there should ensure that players don't want to use their strongest troops on too easy tasks, but actual try to field the units suitable for butchering the opponent.

But with ways to get around that, my suggestion is to use a hard cap in form of a always hit alwas miss % chance as I don't see the value of this open ended dice system when difference in modifiers gets big. (In my thinking encumberence and affliktions would be nice candidates for a fix/ penality on SC, but here i don't really have a suggestion yet!)

A hard cap could be used alot better than a open ended dice system to ensure that differense doesn't get to big. Special in a game here where SC gets build better and better, with more and more dream equipment (and also getting encreased exp).

I hope I got it better explained this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Seems to me neither considers balance, but rather playstyle and preference for what they want Dom2 to play akin to. Not what it play's like.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I'd disagree with a "probability cap". For me 20 militia men with fists should find it almost impossible to injure a giant in full plate armour, let alone a magically enchanted, fully equipped with legendary kit, ready-and-willing-to-kick-*** would be god.

I like the open ended system.

Although I have to admit, I can't readily come up with a way to reduce the influence of big scary things that is as simple and effective as the "probability cap". I just don't like it's implications.

Hmmm - one way would be to have a spell which locked the caster and its target into Stasis, for as long as the spell was maintained. It could cost astral each turn, or just be dispellable, or both. If the casting requirements were high enough (lots of astral? lots of water?) then the wizards to cast the spell would be rare and expensive. You'd have to get one into battle with the SC in question, and then he could cast the spell.

You could tone the power requirements of the spell based on what sort of power level of nastything you want it to be economical to "Stasis"

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

If somebody does substantial research and site searching, they *should* get something which isn't terribly bothered by light infantry that could have been purchased from the get-go. That's the whole point.
That said, between Curse, the large number of affliction-causing items, and the availability of AP power (Weapons of Sharpness doesn't even cost a gem, for instance), the finite equipment slots, the existence of specific counters like the unresistable Wither Bones, and pure ugliness like Gifts from Heaven or even Gate Cleaver, nothing's invulnerable.
Even a Tartarian with an outrageously good kit isn't a meaningful threat if somebody's just lopped off both its arms with Picas and Procas, and somebody else hit it a couple of times with Vision's Foe.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

To be blunt, if you find national mages and troops useless in the late game, than you need to improve your tactics.

They are certainly less usefull than early on, and the later you get the more magic dominates -- but even so mundane troops and mages have a substantial impact -- IMHO if you neglect them you are much more likely to lose.

If on the other hand you and your friends would just like mundane troops to be more usefull and prevalent -- just change the settings!

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This spell already exists. It paralyzes anything unresistably in combat, and is called "PETRIFY". No form of immunity or MR can protect against this: It always paralyzes at worst, and costs no gems: You can just keep casting it ad infinitum.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

To be fair, at 5E, Petrify is not particularly easy to cast for most nations.

- Kel

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

I agree with the sentiment that SCs should not be the be all and end all of this game. I think that one aspect of a good strategy game is that there are multiple ways to win, and if the only strategy for winning Dominions II is with SCs then it's not meeting that standard.

But by that same token, I don't think it is right to argue that things should be changed such that it becomes impossible to follow a SC strategy, and that everyone should have to rely on national troops. That is just swapping SCs for national troops at the top of the heap. The best thing for the game, in my opnion, is a rough balance in which it is possible to pursue either of these (or some entirely different) strategy, and have a chance to win.

It does seem like things are out of balance, as I've defined it, and that SCs are the best thing going right now. Perhaps it would help if there were more ways to boost the strength of national troops. As others have pointed out, these never really get any better than they were at the start of the game. Well maybe if there were more spells that buffed up Groups of conventional units, they'd be more attractive. There could even be magic items that a commander could use to aid his men in battle, ala Standards.

Another idea would be to have settings that one could adjust during God creation that would result in better national troops, but at a price that would prevent you from getting a powerful SC Pretender at the same time. Like, say, a 250 point national theme (is that what they're called, I forget...) that would give your nation a set of national troops that are much more powerful than the norm.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are other, easier options. Many nations have access to astral-2 mages (even astral-1 will do with a Banner of the NS) who can cast Stellar Cascades, and if you bring enough of them (5 will usually do), the offending SC won't even have the time to cast his/her buffs. If it's a VQ, even better - whoever can cast Stellar Cascades can finish her off with Solar Rays.

And that's just an example.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

Maybe something on the line with Niefel Giants? If you want a nation with strong mundane troops, take Jotunheim and if the "basic" Jotuns are not enough for you take Niefelheim. It doesn't even cost 250 design points, and you get 120 points from the cold scale even though the Last one hits your income a little.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do find that the AI would often rather cast cast paralyze with a low probability of success than solar rays, stellar cascades, and star fires.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could always crib an idea from MoM - allow mithril / adamantium mines to be located at the capitol. Troops recruited there would have magic weapons and superior armor.

Or add some new buildings, that provide upgrades to the troops. A minor increase to attack Ratings; enchanting the weapons / bows so they can affect etherealness... Or that increase morale, or cause the troops to be created with 1 experience star already.

Without something ... Norfleet mentions Petrify. Great idea - but against flying SCs in particular, how do you get one of your _very_ rare E5 mages in combat? Right now, flying SCs (such as VQs and Ice Devils) with a full set of gear are essentially immune to normal armies. I've watched one Ice Devil destroy 100+ troop armies of Marignon, complete with paladins, High Inquisitors and Grand Masters. Then it wings to another province, and repeats the process.

Pretty soon the armies are gone, and can't quickly (or cheaply) be rebuilt.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's easy for Vanheim, and doable for Arcoscephale and Machaka, but most other nations will have many problems. Ulm can manage it if they've developed a good blood economy for earth blood stones. All you need is an earth 3 mage who is wearing earth boots, and then casts summon earthpower. The flying SC is going to spend at least one turn casting buffs, so you have time to petrify it before it attacks you. If there are lots of troops around as well, then you will have more trouble targeting the SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the problem in that case must have been that the Ice Devil was immune to fire damage. Otherwise the 18+ armor negating fire damage from incinerate would have killed it fairly effectively. It would have also helped greatly if one of the grand masters had cast light of the northern star, or if someone was carrying a banner of the northern star. This would have enabled all the grand masters to cast astral fires on the ice devil.

Re: National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do find that the AI would often rather cast cast paralyze with a low probability of success than solar rays, stellar cascades, and star fires. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That may be true, but 5 Volvur - or similar mages - scripted (Stellar Cascades)x2 (Solar Rays)x3 will take care of any VQ without worrying about this issue. For non-undead SCs, once they're at 200 fatigue, ordinary steel is usually adequate.