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Advice on Machaka appreciated
I really like Machakian mages, and I like the "feel" to this nation a lot. Yet I fail miserably with them
I would like to know what you people who enjoy Machaka use for pretender builds. Since their mages are not holy and their priests are not sexy and their only sacred unit is one I have never been able to afford, I have never made a build with bless effects, instead going for some order, production, and magic. Things I dont understand include: - what to do with their so-called "warriors". Fodder is nice, but what do I do early game? It seems all I have is fodder. Am I supposed to do lots of blindness/7-year-fever inducing hit-and-run attacks to weaken em up until I get juicier troops? - My assassin seems very nice, I'd like to use him, but he's so expensive, capital only, and still dies easily to Indy normalo commanders without decent equipment (and he already starts with *bane blades*). What do I do wrong? - PD. I know I like nations with stronger PD -- it is fun to see minor incursions / bad luck events stopped completely with PD alone (I have success playing Abysia). Machaka PD I dont understand -- should I just forget it completely? But then I feel so naked. How do you defend? Do you keep troops *everywhere*? - How many spies do you use? - Im not used to non-priestly mages (also play Tien S&A a lot); any tips? - Hoplites seem nice, but they slow down my otherwise quick army. Any tips here? - I love bowmen, but Machakian bowmen are the worst of them all, it seems. With their small range, they cant be all the way in the back, and then they have.... no protection. And 8 gold is not nothing, considering Marignon crossbows only cost 10, for example, ditto for Tien's compound bowmen. It seems I never have enough money for enough to mass a group which wont rout.... What do you do? well I'll cut it short here thanks very much! |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
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pretender builds. if going for bless its either fire or earth, to have those spiders be really strong. But don't build them to early (to costly for that). I have failed to make a F9E9 scorpion pretender really work, but have not give up trying. with the wide range of magic skills availble, there is no need for a rainbow pretender (maybe except the cash cow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). The reason is that A black sorcerer and a sorcerer with right randoms (water, air or astral ) would together find around 2/3 of all magic sites there is hidden. Not the best ones ofcause but enough to get a very good start in magic income. Back is either a SC or a pretender to fill in the gaps in the magic. Virtue (air) or prince of death (death) or even a water one. Filling in gabs , does give room for really good scales. What to do in early game! All this fodder. Patroll is a good option (40 troops in first round). Tax can fast be really high. To give a very good economic start. (growth scale comes in handy here). I build all the hopelite i can (maybe exsept one) and round up with archers (12+). The would join as patrollers until ready to go out fighting. Unless drowning in resources the goal is to get a second fortification ASAP. To be able to spit out hopelites! If have enough resources I would still build second castle very fast as there is alot of commanders there is nice to build and 1 for each turn is simple to restrickting in early game, as I want those patrollers, and a few scouting priest and.... (actual knowing that I would build second castle very fast means that low producktion scales can be an option for a non blessed pretender) About assasin I can't really give advice as i find him decent against most opponents (exsept maybe ulm and jotun), and I haven't really used him against indies. PD: I add archers and a lvl 3 priest and thats makes it reasonble better! Or I patroll with a lvl 2 priest with patroll bonus and archers/ hopelites. So Yes I keep troops every where. And milk the provinces for gold once in a while. I sure use to few stealth units, with machaka- but thats why I want that second castle- to cranck out some preaching stealth priests. The trick about the mages. What I have learned so far is to look close at the random magic pics on my sorcs and black sorcs. (Earth, Fire, and death for the black , and death , nature for the sorc, this open up for all the +1 items at construcktion 4 (and 6 later). so thosse are keepers not to put in danger before they have research and forged the needed + items. Else i think its alteration 6 there is the target. (after flaming arrows alt 4) but thats in the topic here But to make it short Mass protektion does wonders to my hopilites and does make my archers protekted as well! Incinerate is the best fire spell , and invulnerbility is a nice thing for thosse mages and.... And now getting into the talk about bowmen and how to proteckt them. Thats a nice job for hopilites , they are actual excellent at it, they laugh at friendly fire and doesn't break easyly. So this is a standard archer/heavy inf combo that machaka have. And very dependely And am I wrong about that bows benefit more from the flaming arrows than crosbows , because of the faster fire rate or did I misunderstood that. on final thought I think thats patrolling is whats make the difference for me in the early game, not that I overdo it, but to get those exstra gold early is simply what machaka needs, and the flexibility is nice as i am able to make my income alot higher if needed. And the PD does need thesse ekstra troops aswell. remember that Anything a patrolling priest finds would kill him unless he is in good compagny. btw I like your wordings" Since their mages are not holy and their priests are not sexy and their only sacred unit is one I have never been able to afford, I have never made a build with bless effects" Made me laugh But have you seen a sorceress turns into a spider- defently sacred after! (but sure not sexy) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Hmmm. I disagree that the priests aren't sexy. There are 3 Versions, all dirt cheap for their interesting abilities. I think except for arco and marignon, they have the sexiest priests.
(i.e.Harem Time!) Maybe I'm silly, but I find getting a decent blessing with machaka is way too expensive. Plus the Hunters, as marvelous as they are, are overpriced. (Until they lose their riders, Heh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Fire/blood/death are all almost useless for the hunters. (if you got undead spiders, death would rule, but alas....) Astral still doesn't get their post-rider MR into the survivable range. Air is potentially nice if you're using massed crossbows, but it seems rather unlikely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Water and nature are both lovely, but you can't get them without paying through the draconic nose. (If divine serpent were available... Yum!) But 274 points is a lot to empower a unit you can't afford until midgame. I like the Wyrm for a cheap SC or a rainbow with air/water/astral. Machaka is very good at summoning armies and the gems are gonna get used early and often. Oh and the hoplites are, bar none, the most cost efficient infantry in the game. If not using a hunter bless strat, take a low gold castle (wizard tower kicks tush) and churn them out like the unstoppable death wave they are. Rabe the Machakan Maven |
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Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
thank you all!!
@Rabe: We have a vastly different conception of sexy. The Ear is by far the worst spy in the game, he is *always* getting caught -- for 70 gold I dont like him spying, and for 70 gold preaching? I'll take a Friar for almost half price any day. The Eye can patrol, which is... ok, but certainly not sexy. And what specials does the Voice have? No, a sexy priest is one who can summon cool monsters, fly, have magic paths, have enticing mammary glands (oh wait no forget that), be cheap, etc. Maybe I must just learn to not want all things all the time.... ok I will try out your suggestions. Nature blessing, never tried that.... |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Mm. Machaka is about my 3rd favorite nation, so I think I have at least a few things to say about it.
Generally, I don't go for a Bless Strategy. With my Pretender, I either load up on Earth magic (burn to Forge, go insane with your versatile mages), or do something else. Yeah, I know, very helpful, but... can Machaka get the Great Mother? 4E/4N Pretender would be great for them, IMO... With regard to the priests, no, they're not very impressive. The fact that you have a _Spy_ priest is rather good, though. OTOH, the others simply don't compare. The Voice costs the same amount as the Seraphine, with none of her benefits. Weird, that. With regard to the troops, the Hoplites are indeed your best troop. I also like the Spider Knights, though I haven't tried the base Riders. I would think that webbing someone before they get to you and continuing to pelt them with arrows would be good. But really, I find Machaka's strength is the versatile summoning platforms they have. Vinemen are very acceptable early (which also gets you to Construction 2 for the Fever Fetish), and a little more Research gets you Scorpions and other niceties. As for PD... eh. My biggest complaint about Machaka is their tissue-paper PD, when I don't see why they have it for terms of balance. |
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5 is not very good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
I'm surprised you are having trouble with Machaka, I find them one of the more balanced nations out there.
Try going with an Enchatress with F3 W3 E3 S6 as your pretender. Early in the game, she finds most sites that your mages won't, and in the later game she's a walking artillery platform after a nice ring of sorcery and staff of elemental magery. I usually only build a few more than the starting archer compliment for my initial expansion, concentrating more on the exceptional hoplites for the bulk of my army. They stand up to any independant short of knights. Put your javlineers on the edge and have them attack archers. They will die off eventually, but as we have established... they totally suck. Later in the game, add some archer spiders to your army, not too many since they are a whopping 50 gold, maybe a half-dozen to slow down the cavalry. Another half-dozen spider riders in front of them set to intercept cavalry will result in your opponent's flanking force being quickly webbed and ganged up on. Hoplites still comprise the bulk of your army. They can go toe to toe with most infantry, but adjust your tactics if you see tramplers! I like to keep a seperate growing force of hunter spiders on their own, led by my prophet. Use this army to quickly reinforce border areas the hunter spider is arguably the strongest recruitable unit, and a group of 12 or so backed by skeleton summonings and priests is a match for many armies 3 or 4 times it's size. As for the horrendous PD of Machaka, I usually plant a necromancer in my remote border locations, quietly researching until it comes time to back up the 20 strong militia. Give him a +death staff and a cheap regen item and he'll try his best to stem the tide. It's not the cheapest solution, but costs near nothing after the initial investment, and ensures you won't lose provinces to a flock of blackhawks or two knights and a priest =(. Lastly, remember that your research chicks can morph into spiders. Try the combat sequence (stoneskin, fireshield, change shape, attack). Not bad huh? hope this helps. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Machaka virtually begs for a blesseffect strategy, considering their terrific sacred units. I usually pick one of the dragons for a single 9. Because their mages are not sacred I don't have to worry about a nature9 blessing causing my mages to run into melee. Or I skip bless and magic completely and just max the scales and castle.
Light protection indeps: Machaka got very cheap archers and almost arrowproof hoplites. Use hoplites to tie up troops and wither them with massed archers. Spiders are also arrowresistant but too expensive to risk to friendly fire. Put them on fireclosest to let them web enemies. Medium protection indeps: Massed Machaka warriors on fire closest and a few flanking spiderknights on attack archers. Build one big regiment and get some priests to keep morale up. Heavy protection indeps: Bring out them sacred units and mages, they'll make short work of them. A nature9 blessed group of four spiders will beat the snot out 20 knights. Especially if they got some magic support. Machakas PD is propably the worst available. It was one of the very first things I modded in the game. Basicly you can just as well go "naked" and stick a though summoned unit or two in there (like a giant scorpion) with a cheap priest on pray (or perhaps 5 PD since the priest cost upkeep). Summoned units gets you a lot of bang for the buck and demand no salaries. Giant Scorpions are propably the best province defenders available for Machaka. Machaka sorcerers can take out a lot of enemies all by themselves. Just learn a few good boost spells and put them on attack. First hit will turn them into huge spiders (with all the magic boosts intact) and they'll simply level small forces without any help. I use enough spies to keep tabs on the frontier. Since PD can not be relied on (without modding) you need to see where your enemy will strike you. Banespiders fragile? You must have had a bout of bad luck. The only thing I ever needed to worry about was mounted commanders. Their defence is a bit low perhaps. |
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Other troops? Massed archers - not great, but they don't do much damage to your own heavily armored troops. And personally, with Machaka, I use a lot of summoned troops. Easy access to magicks for reanimating the dead, creating vine men (later ogres - both using the Vine Crown for extra effect), creating manikins, etc. Always nice to have front line troops that won't break, and that don't cost upkeep. Quote:
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Also, Blindness, Earth Grip, and Tangle Vines shouldn't be forgotten about. Finally - a good bless strategy works wonders with those hunter lords and black hunters. Water 9 for example, to boost their defense and let them reach the enemy faster and get extra attacks. Earth 4, so they get their fatigue back more quickly. (Alternatively - E9 for more armor protection, bringing them to a whopping 26) The units may be expensive, but great. Don't forget to consider making a Hunter Lord your prophet. This allows a standalone group of Black Hunters to take provinces all by themselves; the prophet blesses them, and is even more of a brute from prophet bonuses. Just don't forget to give him a little extra oomph - bracers of defense, a lucky amulet, maybe a magic weapon. Improve the gear as the game goes forward. HtH. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Hey thanks very much again.
I suppose my problem is the reluctance to rely on hoplites so much, simply because I find them so unsexy. But surely they are a great unit. Blitz: I have never been able to script "change shape" -- where and how can one do that? |
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Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
I'm having a lot of fun with these guys actually. I have a rainbow sage with 4 in everything and I've been having decent results with the shortbowmen and the hoplites have been everything people have said they are. So far I haven't put the spider troops to use yet but it's only turn 25.
It's been a struggle to survive but that has made it all the more enjoyable. Sometimes I wonder about the guys who post specific roadmaps and by turn 10 they have all this crap accomplished. I'm just glad to be holding my borders at that point! |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Not sexy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Machaka priests are great!
* The Ear is stealthy +10 and carries a shortsword and has the fighting skill of an elite warrior. Preaching in enemy territory can be risky, though you can stick to borders and independent provinces and script Retreat. * The Eye costs only as much as an independent priest, and can do all a priest can, but is also an extremely skilled fighter armed with a two-handed flail! For players who find patrolling useful for various things, +15 patrol bonus for a unit with the upkeep cost of 2.5 regular troops is rather good, too. Leadership 25 isn't bad, either. An extremely versatile unit - can be a priest, a patrol squad, a commander, or a tough blessed fighter, whenever those roles are needed. Gotta be one of the best deals around, for players who notice. * The Voice has holy 3, sacrificing, competent fighting skills, and leadership of 50! Rather useful. * They all have forest survival. Really very good all around. Machaka is a great nation, and not difficult to figure out how to use well. Ya the PD is flimsy, though it's also cheap cannon fodder since you get two per point. PD 5 is 15 gold for 10 regenerating cannon fodder, which is a good deal up to that point, and stacked with other units is useful. Eventually you can get spells which can make up for their lack of armor, too, at which point the unarmored units suddenly become more serious. Blessed hunter spiders, and/or Hunter Lords with magic items, can be very potent. The ordinary spiders are also good - just a few can do a lot with their web. PvK [ April 30, 2004, 08:26: Message edited by: PvK ] |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
OK, thank you. I almost never use my commanders as warriors, so that is my problem. Perhaps they are sexier than I thought. I just hate having my commanders die or get seriously wounded as a tradeoff for killing 2-3 enemy light infantry, and it seems that is what happens when I have commanders fight. That is why I almost invariably purchase mage-type commanders, never the "standard" type of centurion-leader. This, I suppose, is my problem in general.
I'll try your ideas out. So do you forge them all items, or what? Thank you. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
To add a little more here, I had a large engagement with ULM Last night. They had about 100 various units, heavy infantry, longdeads, siege engineers, and priests.
Generally I really fear their hvy inf as my arrows bounce off of them and they cut through a lot of units like butter. But my hoplites really saved the day and held the line against them (the ONLY unit to cause me hoplite casualties by the way). I also had a screen of 30 vinemen who are good for distracting enemy archers and fast units that go for the closest guys. But the downside (right now) is that I burn those fellas up faster than I can make them. But it's nice to have a little fodder for the first two turns. So really my focus now is to make my shortbowmen more effective. I'm researching for fire arrows and then wind guide so they will be more dangerous. Because considering how cheap their archers are, I can field a squad of 200 in no time. [ April 30, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: En Forcer ] |
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When I mention that some of the Machaka priests have good fighting skills, that doesn't mean I send them into hand-to-hand combat often, nor do many of mine have magic items. I was just listing what makes them interesting and versatile. However if for example you had to banish a lot of undead, some of your Eye priests could get a lot of experience. Added on top of level-12 base fighting skills, they could be given some armor and perhaps other toys and suddenly be quite tough, especially if you have some bless effects. Or, their skills can just be good for self-defense. Ordinary priests die when caught be some pesky unit that snuck into the rear, but an Eye priest may be able to take them out. The Hoplite Commanders have good equipment already. So do the Hunter Lords, but when you add a few items to your Hunter Lords, possibly combined with bless effects and/or spells, they can start to be very potent melee units. One of mine just did in several Ulm cavalry and Guardians in a massive knock-down drag-out MP battle. The cheap cannon fodder and plant summons did their job of dying and absorbing enemy attacks, occupying and tiring the enemy. The Hoplites held the field, probably thanks to many castings of Fanatacism by my Voice Prophet (who died). PvK |
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Kind of amusing to me, seeing what I know is friars in the HoF post turn 20, with 6-9 human players in the game. Given Machaka's better combat stats for the priests, it's probably easier and better to try to do the same with them. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Here is my Machaka strategy:
Create a typical Main army just like some of the posters have explained but also creat a 8-10 equipped assassin army also. Keep this group in front of your main army and just before you main army strikes set them to assasinate. The assasinations take place before the armies fight. Even if you are only 50% succesful taking out 4-5 commanders or mages can cripple an army that has to fight right after that. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
OK thanks, will take a look. I played them and liked them a lot when I first got the demo....
PirateIAm: When you send out 8 equipped assassins in front of your army, and they only succeed say 50% of the time, isnt that like 400 gold + all that time down the drain? Is it worth it for you? Well it may be fun, so that's ok. I have the worst of luck with Bane Spiders. I hate it when they die to measly little commanders, and they do so quite a bit when I use them. Sure the measly little commander may also die, but he wasnt a 150 gold capital-only unit which took me ages to get out there. Argh I wish I could use them B-Spiders better. Do you all have success with them? I tried the trick of having him take out indies; tried giving him a ring of breathing and going for neihboring water provs, but he gets licked by Tritons and only takes out about 70% of "normal" commanders at most. It seems he only has a great success rate against those 50g priest-types. Or am I doing something wrong? |
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Also would be nice if the machaka militia could be blessed... then the province defense could actually do something. |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Bless tactic is not a way to go with Machaka, at least not for beginners. Black spiders are powerful but are too expensive and you wont have enough of them to make blessing worthwhile.
Best way to go is good scales and pretender with single magic path that your mages don’t cover (like Air). Virtue, for example, is a good choice. |
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PvK |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
WIthout going into details, I think the Hunters and the Bane Spiders, and at least light bless effects, can all be worth it and used effectively, but also require investment, so it's a matter of style and preference. Don't try to do everything all at once, or it's likely you won't do anything well enough. However I have had success even fairly early on with some Hunters. They don't need blesses, but blesses (and magic items) just make them more deadly and tough to kill.
Bane Spiders are good assassins, but of course they aren't 100% effective, are expensive and don't make sense to try to use all the time. Their armor makes their defense rather low. Adding luck, etherealness, or Defense improving items will help them beat tougher opponents. PvK |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Well to each their own...
It is extremely rare for me not to have 10 hunter spiders by turn 10, unless I lost some in conquests. On top of that I normally would have a solid mass of hoplites, and whatever extra archers I might need... Sure I may wind up skimping on the mages early, but hunters with earth9 are just too nasty, give them fire4 or nature4 on top of that and... well if I can figure out how to do it I'd imagine most of you can too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its all about the scales people, oh and using your nice patroling priests to crank your income to insane levels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I find it much easier to get lots of income, rather than production, which is usually the bottleneck for 'knight' production. I never even bother to try and make more than 1 knight a turn with marignon (yeah you can do it... so what), with Machaka I often find myself able to pump out 3 hunters a turn, income willing... And turn 20 isn't late game is it? Well I guess it depends on the game and the players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
I like the Machaka casters a lot, I usually send 2-3 with every army of 30-50 men. That's something you definitely can't do with Tien Ch'i.
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Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
Thanks much!!
One more question: I think part of my failures is that I do not understand the magic paths very well -- nature and fire and death combos I mean... What spells do you like to research when-ish? What schools are generally good bets (besides construction and evocation)? I am a big thaumaturgy fan, but since Machaka has NO astral, I don't really know what to do. How do you guys dispel? How do you get those neato ++path boosting items (rings of sorc, staffs of elemental mastery) without air or astral? I like the idea of a Virtue for air, but cant see me getting an Air and Astral pretender (which one??).... Uh, sorry, main question here: Magic. Which spells, which paths? Thanks much! |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
For other paths, look at Summon Lamia Queen (takes nature, gets D2/N1/?1/?1 with the ? restricted to sorcery) and Summon Couatl (gets nature/astral/holy, don't remember how much). Black Sorcerors also have an unrestricted random, if memory serves, but that's capital-only and not terribly cheap. Death will get you Summon Spectres, who are D1/1?/1?.
Oh, and don't forget that undead commanders can still use Fever Fetishes to produce fire gems even 'tho they don't suffer from them. Could boost your economy if you abuse 'em and put them on Mound Kings, Revenants etc. |
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Besides construcktion to lvl 4 and 6 (+ items ) it's for me Alteration all the way to level 6! I think evocation is in a lot less hurry, whats so important to get there? please enlighten me. enchanment (flaming arrows) should be seleckted early. And conjuration could. Summons for pd as suggested in this tread I think is a wonderfull idea. And why not use them for some punch early. As machaka can get a good shoot at gem income early. (a black and a normal sorc searching together finds around 2/3 of ALL sites in the game, if having air/astral/water as their random.) but for Alteration massprotecktion at lvl 6 and acsees to spells like Invulnerability, Incinerate, Drain Life, Elemental Fortitude btw alteration does gives good posibilitys for making early mini SC out of black sorcerer. Buff them and attack, and the oppenent will hope not to hurt them lightly!! |
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[ May 06, 2004, 21:56: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
thanks for the enlightenment , have to try magna eruption.
Oh And I quess thats you have construction in there also! (oh by the way the quoting seems a little off ) [ May 06, 2004, 22:53: Message edited by: Jondifool ] |
Re: Advice on Machaka appreciated
I'm playing Machaka with a Fire 9 Moloch, so evocation has the highest priority at the beginning. Next comes enchantment up to level 3 so your mages can summon lots of skelettons. Next step is construction up to level 4 for lots of magical stuff (most importantly rings of regeneration/reinvigoration for your leaders), and finally conjuration so you can spend your fire gems on summer lions.
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