Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

This is my first in-depth strategy essay on Dominions 2. Having near-obsessively played this game since it's release, I'd like to share some of my ideas about one of the least played domains, that of Pangaea: New Age. It isn't the strongest (IMHO Emor is horribly unbalanced), nor is it the most versatile (probably Tien Chi), but it's infantry and cavalry units are second-to-none which make this a very good race for beginners.

Pangaea's biggest strength is probably the recuperation ability of its units. The afflictions that plague other armies simply don't affect Pangaea. No more limping infantries bringing up the rear. No one-eyed archers putting arrows in the backs of your cavalry. When you take into account the expense of some of the units you will field, this is a nice addition indeed. As with all things in this game, there is a counterbalance for this weakness. Your mages are only mediocre, and prohibitively expensive. You have no good researching unit, and your priests are only level 2. There are ways to overcome these weaknesses, however. We'll get into that later.

You have four recruitable satyr infantry to chose from. Three of them are complete garbage, but the fourth is certianly not. The Satyr Hoplite is a reasonably priced (13 gold), 14hp infantry unit with reasonable defensive capabilities. You won't need many of these guys, but they definately solve one of vanilla Pangaeda's biggest problems - no good cheap initial infantry. Make 20 or so of these at the start of the game and they'll stick around quite a while.

Your cavalry unit is the Centaur Cataphract. The unit description states that they are a match for the cavalry of man, and this is certianly the case. Not only do they have 20 armor and 14 defense, but 20 hit points and of course recuperation. When you consider their low cost (40 gold), this is one of the better cavalry units in the game, certianly stronger than regular heavy cav, and at half the price of Vans or other elite cavalry, perhaps your best bang for the buck flanker around. their biggest drawback is that they do not have lances for a shock charge. This is regrettable, but we'll have to deal with it.

Next we have two different Minotaur units. The first one is the minotaur soldier. While this unit is strong in its own right, it is inferior in every way except speed and cost to the second, the spectacular Grove Guard. For 50 gold and 57 resources you get a 25hp 18def 17str trampling recuperating berserking monster. Short of a hydra or Neifl giant, this is the single best frontline unit around, at a fraction of the cost. 10 minotaurs against 3 giants or 2 hydras isn't even close, and a horde of 20 will shred any front wall they come up against. Even better, unlike giants they stand 2 to a grid for a more potent frontline. If that's not enough, unlike the elites of most other nations, you can recruit these anywhere. Simply put, this unit is the reason to play Pangaeda New Age.

Finally we have our bless unit. The Satyr Hoplite is a medium infantry unit with awe. If you want to go with a bless strategy, I'd suggest not playing this theme. These guys might be a nice unit for another race, but with Pangaeda's weak priests and mages and superior heavy infantry, there are better strategies out there for sure.

Keeping with the ground-pounding theme, Pangaeda again has some of the best melee commanders out there. All three are upgraded Versions of their respective units. Notable is the Centaur leader. As my prophet, he did a real nice job of flanking the initial independants. Prophet bonuses boost him to as high as 40-45 hit points, good enough to solo most backlines and win his share of arena fights.

Unfortunately, Pangaeda has some of the poorest choices for spellcasters around. Dryad priests are only 2 power, with 1 point of nature magery. the Pan is not a bad caster at GGGE?, but costs 350 gold and is far too expensive to use as a researcher.

With a little thought and some luck, these weaknesses can be overcome. The Pan is the only spellcaster that is guaranteed to be able to cast Strength of Gaia, which is a really nice buff spell (GGGE +barkskin +regeneration +nature magic). Throw some earth boots on a pan and you can open with Gaia and Summon Earth Power, giving you 4G and 3E, plus barkskin, regen, and recuperation. Nice. This also allows the casting of the really nice third-sphere earth spells. I like to research Conjuration for these two spells (as well as Summon Kithaironic Lion, one of the better summons). Higher up the conjuration tree we have Summon Couatil, which would solve our priest problems nicely.

But the biggest problem we have is the lack of a decent researcher. The answer is obvious. Find sages. Fast. One of the most common special sites, I've only failed to locate one in a couple of games, and in those cases I found some other independant researcher. The key of course is a rainbow mage as pretender. You can build up insanely strong combatant leaders in this theme anyways, so a supercombatant isn't really needed. A wraith-sworded trampling berserking minotaur isn't a VQ, but then again nothing is. Get some independant mages to back up your forces and your weaknesses are covered. Even if you can't find sites to compliment your army, you can always summon a mage leader to fill in the gaps. Any of the royal court summons are nice additions, another reason to shoot the conjuration tree.

Hopefully this inspires some people to play this theme a little more. I think it's one of the more interesting ones out there. It's sometimes easier to find a few good mages and priests than to find a whole new army halfway through the game. Minotaurs are never obsolete!

[ April 27, 2004, 23:44: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice write-up. Personally I love Pangaea but New Age is a theme I dont tend to play. But you seem to have gotten alot of the Pros and Cons figured out. I place Pangaea:New Age as a next nation to try after a new player tries Ulm. Still rather Ulmish but with some more options.

Keep in mind that balance in this game is not the same as in others. Balance here does not mean that each nation is able to hold its ground against each other nation. Instead of ALL the nations balancing, each nation only has to have A BALANCE somewhere. Ermor cannot win if Marignon gets angry. Marignon will fall if Ulm finds them too soon. And Ulm will have a hard time doing anything but surviving against Ermor.

Other games try to balance everybody. The problem with that is that even a tiny advantage or decent tactic makes that nation the absolute king. In this game, no nation is absolute best. In fact, the biggest factor is finding a nation whose abilities fits your playing style.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Let me correct a couple inaccuracies:

1) New Era don't get any archers.

2) New Era cataphracts have 20 prot, not 18.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Ugh... Ulm. I've been trying desperately to come up with a winning strategy for black forest Ulm. It works, but not well enough. It seems to be a mish-mash of mediocre units thrown together with almost no synergy. That theme badly needs a 180 gold DDD necromancer with some research ability. Then we'd have a theme.

Iron Faith Ulm on the other hand, is pretty decent. The problem is that Ulm's infantry is at best on par with grove guards (cost/unit), and superior magery and flanking would carry the day. Ulm badly needs cheaper crossbows, and not those slow alabests or whatever they are called.

I know in theory Ulm beats Marignon, but as a Marignon player, frankly it never happens that way. The Emor rolling scenario isn't theory, but a reality. It's not so much Vanilla Emor, but the other two themes that are the problem. In our playgroup, we've Banned both the Vampire Queen and the two Emor alternate themes. Everyone knows the theory behind beating Emor (banish, holy pyre, solar rays), and there are ways to kill a Vampire queen, but we believe that just because it's POSSIBLE to beat a strategy dosen't mean it's not overpowered.

Anyways, let's not turn this into another Emor/VQ thread. Everyone already has an opinion, it's probably already been stated. I only posted mine because I've never adressed the issue before. It's Banned in our games, the rest of you can do what you like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) Everyone gets archers, you just have to go look for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Would be nice if New Age got a longbow centaur, but alas we only get independant archers.

2) Fixed.

[ April 27, 2004, 23:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fortune tellers only cost 90 gold, and give you 5 research, that's definetly good enough. As for their other units, the rangers are the best missile unit in the game, they have very high protection infantry, and infinite supplies of cannon fodder from the wolves. The vampire counts make an amazing defensive force when given only minor items.

Their other mages are also very stealthy spies, which can shut down enemies production centres very well. They can also cast antimagic to remove Ulm's weakness to MR negating spells. Then they also have access through communion to all the sorcery battlefield spells.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I very rarely use IF Ulm, since they have no research ability to speak of.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well you've given me some things to think about to be sure. I know Rangers are pretty good, but I maintain that compared to other themes, Black Forest leaves something to be desired. Obviously the Vampire Counts are the big draw.

It's not a theme I've used in MP yet, just played around with it against the AI a few times. I can tell you one thing though... that Burkhard Nachtzehrer hero might just be my favorite from any theme. Not the strongest to be sure, but one of the coolest.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

cooler than Etimmu???? 8O (<--this is a face) this i have to see.

[ April 28, 2004, 01:08: Message edited by: Cheezeninja ]

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

BF is by far the strongest theme of Ulm. There are alot of drawbacks to normal Ulm but you can still play them very well, but BF if played correctly is hard to rival. Their inherent weaknesses are very apparent, but if you use your Pretender to circumvent that flaw, they are very competitive.

BF Ulm is the consummate Rusher.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

It's that hero only of Black Forest theme?

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Stay the (insert swear word of choice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ) on topic!

Ahem, I've found that New Era Pangaea is an excellent theme. You've got some of the toughest infantry and cavalry around (Centaur Cataphracts can take a buttload of punishment, with knight-like armor and inhuman hp while Satyr Hoplites are no pushovers. You supercharged minotaurs (Grove Guards or Keeper of Traditions) are many times better than Caelian mammoths or Arcosephalean elephants because they don't rout through your infantry as much. Even though you only have spears and battleaxes, your units' natural strength makes up for this.

I won my first game with New Era http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was refering to this:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since that's a post about New Era, whoever reads that would assume it gets national archers with recuperation. Unfortunately this isn't the case. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find it a bit weak when compared to the default though. And it seriously lacks diversity in its units, for me New Era is a theme with only 3 units and 3 leaders to pick from. Hmmm, and after a while the only unit I keep recruiting is the Cataphract. Even Ulm offers more variety. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

BTW, isn't it odd that the new Pan loses an earth magic level as well as the maenad magnet effect? Shouldn't it be the other way around? New Era uses steel almost as much as Ulm, which means smiths, which means construction, which means earth magic. I think moving that 2nd earth from the basic Pan to his New Era cousin would help balancing the themes.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ooooh I tend to zero in on comments that make Pangaea sound weak if they lose a "face to face" army thing. To me, the major advantage of Pangea:default is using its sneak-army abilities.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except you're wrong: base Panii get 2 earth levels. Moving one of them to NE Panii won't prevent them to use Strength of Gaia or Summon Kitties at all. Since NE Panii cost the same price, and don't even attract Maenads I think it would only be fair.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

I don't particularly think that it would be more fair to have the New Era Panii more magically powerful than the Base Panii. Attracting Maeneds is all fine and good, but with the 2E Pan he's worth his heafty pricetag. To downgrade the base Panii and upgrade the New Era doesn't neccesarily fix the problem, but changes it to another.

I'm fairly certain the biggest gripes of Base Pan are the Satyrs and Minos. (Though of course switching the Holy levels of the Hierophant and Dryads was a great change in Arrlen's Mod) Not the Panii being overpowered.

I would like to see the New Era Panii have 2 Earth, even with the sacrifice of a Nature (Finishing up with 2E2N) rather than putting *ANY* Pan at 1E3N. Just for the sake of being able to use Earthpower and forge Boots.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said it would. Having only 1 earth on the Pan would limit them to being able to cast those spells, not remove their access to them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why should new era Panii be more magically powerful than those of base Pangaea?

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(1) It's thematic (sort of). NE uses better armor, NE smiths are its Panii, who should be well versed in earth magic for the same reason Master Smiths are.

(2) I can't understand your point about the lack of fairness at all. I agree that attracting Maenads isn't really worth a magic level, but it's more fair by several orders of magnitude than what we've got now: 1 earth level AND maenads vs NOTHING - for the same 350 gold?!? Are you kidding? Plus, default Pangaea gets almost all what NE gets, bar 2 points of protection on a few units, and much much more to make up for that several times.

Quote:

To downgrade the base Panii and upgrade the New Era doesn't neccesarily fix the problem, but changes it to another.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hell if I understand why you say that. The only problem is balance, and I can't see this change doing anything but helping fixing that.

Quote:

I'm fairly certain the biggest gripes of Base Pan are the Satyrs and Minos.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Satyrs are the same in NE. And base War Minos are just fine - much better than NE Minos.

Quote:

Not the Panii being overpowered.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They aren't really - but they sure look overpowered when compared to their NE cousins. Or these look underpowered if you prefer. And I see that as a problem.

Quote:

I would like to see the New Era Panii have 2 Earth, even with the sacrifice of a Nature (Finishing up with 2E2N)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And why wouldn't you want to mahe the NE Pan at least as powerful as the standard one? Do you think NE is a better theme overall?

Quote:

rather than putting *ANY* Pan at 1E3N. Just for the sake of being able to use Earthpower and forge Boots.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The random pick is still here. Just for the record, Panii in Dominions 1 had 1 earth 3 nature and no random. Pangaea wasn't considered as one of the most powerful nations then, but they weren't crap either.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said it would. Having only 1 earth on the Pan would limit them to being able to cast those spells, not remove their access to them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right, that's what you said. My apologies for the misreading.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Balance [Edit: and, as I said before, I find this change 'thematic' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ]. Remove the Panii on both themes, NE looks weaker than the default already. With their respectives Panii that difference is even greater.

[ April 28, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is where the Magic Paths have multiple meanings. I'm all fine and good that Smiths have Earth because of their forging ability. But Earth also has a meaning of using the earth and it's power for spells, not only forging.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Lack of Fairness comes from the Theme itself. Base Pan is more wild, NE is more militarized and such. It says right in the theme they have left their roots of wild and magic to become more warlike and militaristic. Using that as a basis for the sake of argument then it could be said "Why are the Pan's more powerful in NE than Base Pan when it says the exact opposite?". I don't think it's fair that NE has less magic, but that their Panii have MORE magic than their supposed Basic "More Magical" Pan cousins.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the front window of your car is broken and you change it to the back window, is the window still broken?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For their cost and effectiveness yes, but this was to say that everyone saying "Those Pans are just way too cheap for what they do" is not a common complaint. Rather it's the Satyrs and Minos that have the complaint.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said that it wasn't a problem. Only that reducing the Base Panii (which has no obvious problems) does not make sense when it is not they who are the issue, but the NE Panii. Why weaken Base Pan (which is very respectable but not overtly powerful) to put it even with NE? Instead increase NE so that it's even with Base Pan. When I think things need to be fixed, it's not only in the realm of it's base and other themes, but all the nations and their themes.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No but the developers did (made them less powerful). I see no reason why it should be any different than the Base Pan, they don't strap on Armor and give them Black Steel weapons so they should be basically the same except without Maeneds. But obviously IW thought they should be less powerful for their own reasons (which could be thematic, could be balance) so this was to fit with their vision of it. Or if they are willing to budge on the Panii, just make them the same is my Vote.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that is what they were in Dom1, but obviously they felt a change was in order. I personally like the 2E very much and it adds alot to the theme from getting away from it's *pure* Nature feel. I think Pan right now does very well, with only a few minor issues and of course trying to use a Maenede strategy (which I think should be viable, but is not). NE and CW on the other hand need help.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the front window of your car is broken and you change it to the back window, is the window still broken?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In that case I think "If this bottle is full and that bottle is empty and you pour half the wine from this bottle into that bottle, which bottle is empty and which isn't?" would be more accurate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can only hope that there isn't a finite amount of 'balance' for each nation and we can't get out a jug of water and fill up one of those glasses without having to pour out the other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water? Real gods drink ambrosia! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(Hmmmm, maybe I should have kept this one for the T-shirt contest...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

It does kinda suck thatbase Pan cost 350, attract followers, AND have GGGEE?. I thought unit costs were based on stats. Oh well. Earth boots are easy to come by.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Pan is hideously expensive as it is, so I can't see mich of a reason to raise its cost.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Pangaea was one of the worst factions in Dom 1. Not complete crap, but definitely bottom tier. I had alot of fun playing them, but boy did they stink.

In Dom 2 they're better, but still not good. It seems misguided to me to weaken them, regardless of whether NE Pangaea is worse. In fact I think something like Arralen's mod should be the default for Pangaea.

Could NE stand to be improved? You bet; but then this is true for many of the themes.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

We're not interested in nerfing Pangaea. New Era might need a beef-up, but it will not be in magical power. Magic has seeped from the nation.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Some random thoughts:
-Make the them cost negative points
-ulmish sytle resistance to drain?
-Improve the hoplites: strat move 2, hoplons instead of bucklers, more morale.
-Give the centaur cataphracts light lances, or even lances.
-Minotaurs could have move 2 like giants.
-Dryad Hoplites either need to be much improved, or much cheaper. They suck.
-Maybe the Grove Guards could be sacred?
-Bring back harpy scout commanders, perhaps even make them spies for this theme
-Reduce the price of dryads to 90-100, now that they only have holy 2.
-Reduce the price of Pan a bit, 300-320.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

My humble newbie opinion: I understand and affirm Kris O's stance (no better magic) and agree wholeheartedly with Zen:
Instead of NNNE pan, NNEE pan; this even fits thematically with "less tree-hugging, more steel" of New Age. It would also make them simply a bit more versatile, and hence more *fun*, no matter what that means in terms of power, and speaking of which I dont think it would be imbalancing.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

>Some random thoughts:
>-Make the them cost negative points

Needs some remaking to work I believe. Costs can't be negative right now.

>-ulmish sytle resistance to drain?

Hmm.

>-Improve the hoplites: strat move 2, hoplons instead of bucklers, more morale.

I'd rather improve the less useful infantry, otherwise not a bad idea.

>-Give the centaur cataphracts light lances, or even lances.
>-Minotaurs could have move 2 like giants.
>-Dryad Hoplites either need to be much improved, or much cheaper. They suck.

Cheaper perhaps. The awe is rather powerful. If combined with fear, reinvigoration or berserk blessings it can be very powerful. They do not suck, but they are vulnerable to crossbows and magic.

>-Maybe the Grove Guards could be sacred?

Nah. They have a sacred feel, but that is a delusion of the faithless people of the new era http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

>-Bring back harpy scout commanders, perhaps even make them spies for this theme

Hmm

>-Reduce the price of dryads to 90-100, now that they only have holy 2.
>-Reduce the price of Pan a bit, 300-320.

We're not that fair. One point of the theme is that mages and priests cost the same while losing power. Panii should perhaps cost more. There are fewer of them after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will have to think about this. I have a vague and growing feeling of liking, but I'm a bit shocked yet (not sure why - it just feels odd).

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Look at it compared and you'll see it's not particularly a fair assessment for it's cost.

If they are vulnerable to half of the game (magic) and half of the melee portion (longbows/xbows) then they are certainly not worth the cost they are based at. If they are only valuable fighting against cheap, low morale, low damage melee units then there is a problem.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>>-Improve the hoplites: strat move 2, hoplons instead of bucklers, more morale.
>I'd rather improve the less useful infantry, otherwise not a bad idea.

Perhaps. Hoplites just feel to me like they should be the strength of the theme. As it stands now the only unit that looks really useable to me is the Cataphract (assuming it's meant to have a light lance)

>>-Dryad Hoplites either need to be much improved, or much cheaper. They suck.
>Cheaper perhaps. The awe is rather powerful. If combined with fear, reinvigoration or berserk blessings it can be very powerful. They do not suck, but they are vulnerable to crossbows and magic.

I resolutely disagree: they suck. Other than the awe they have nothing going for them, and the awe is off greatly diminishing use against troops with > 10 morale. They would be stronger in melee with a few extra points of defense instead.

By way of comparison, they are not in anyway even close in power to Sidhe, the closest comparable troop I could think of, yet they cost more.

In general I think the power of low levels of awe 0 is overrated, although it's quite effective at higher levels.

>>-Maybe the Grove Guards could be sacred?
>Nah. They have a sacred feel, but that is a delusion of the faithless people of the new era http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Just a thought. They'd have to have white skin anyway, which would be more work.

>>-Reduce the price of dryads to 90-100, now that they only have holy 2.
>>-Reduce the price of Pan a bit, 300-320.
>We're not that fair. One point of the theme is that mages and priests cost the same while losing power. Panii should perhaps cost more. There are fewer of them after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I agree, it's better to balance factions than units. However, to make up for their unfair costing you have to really strengthen NE in other areas to make them viable.

Oh, and I definitely think NE Pan should have EENN instead of ENNN. This would make a huge difference!

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Pangaea's units, even New Era ones, seem to make up for low armor and poor arms with a higher strength (I believe satyrs are 11 or 12 strength), meaning higher attack to make up for crappy spears and a high hp (14 to a satyr or centaur, I haven't played Pangaea in a long time).

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

>Perhaps. Hoplites just feel to me like they should be the strength of the theme. As it stands now the only unit that looks really useable to me is the Cataphract (assuming it's meant to have a light lance)

Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

>I resolutely disagree: they suck. Other than the awe they have nothing going for them, and the awe is off greatly diminishing use against troops with > 10 morale. They would be stronger in melee with a few extra points of defense instead.

>By way of comparison, they are not in anyway even close in power to Sidhe, the closest comparable troop I could think of, yet they cost more.

DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

>In general I think the power of low levels of awe 0 is overrated, although it's quite effective at higher levels.

We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

>Just a thought. They'd have to have white skin anyway, which would be more work.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>I agree, it's better to balance factions than units. However, to make up for their unfair costing you have to really strengthen NE in other areas to make them viable.

Hmm. 'Really' seems a bit strong. They are weaker, but to 'really' strenghten them seems a bit too much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

>Oh, and I definitely think NE Pan should have EENN instead of ENNN. This would make a huge difference!

I'm being more positive by the minute http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

I concur. IMHO Arallen's mod does a good job of this.

>DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

I never thought ulmish infantry were so good, although I guess they are middle of the pack. Plus, they're exactly the sort of thing that Dryad's would be best against.

Still, I'm surprised the DH were even gold for gold with Ulmish infantry. Outnumbered 5 to 1, I just can't see how they'd keep up.

>We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

*Grin* Well put. ;-) ;-)

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd rather have resistance to turmoil actually, since it might fit better.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

That would be great, except the requirements of NE is Order 1, Production 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

I'd sort of not like resistance to drain, if only because I think nations shouldnt have "special" abilities of the others' (drain resistance, conscription, resistance to death, etc.). I think a slight reduction in the cost of dryad hoplites without increasing their power is more than enough, plus a change to the NNEE pan. Keeping the Harpy Queen is also a nice idea.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Maybe the Ulmsmen get to pay full fatigue even when they fail to attack? Or if the masses were large enough, they might be unable to bring their full strength to bear on a smaller body of individually superior troops. Of course, this assumes that DH were able to damage Ulmish infantry at all, I don't see how they could without a strong Blood blessing or Fire 9.

Anyway, a unit that relies on awe to survive is not only vulnerable to missiles and magic, but also to mindless troops, and if it's a modest level of awe, anything with high morale (btw - do the starvation and dominion modifiers to morale affect awe rolls? What about the battle fright affliction?) Awe is not an effective main line of defense even at very high levels because there are so many forms of attack that ignore it completely.

Defense is bad enough as a main line of defense, but awe is even worse - everything that ignores defense also ignores awe, *and* several more things ignore or are only slightly affected by awe. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you at Illwinter need higher morale then. I suggest some experience, blessing, or the heroic valor ability.

Of course, being mindless would solve your awe problem, but create some other problems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif


At any rate, if NE Pangaea is intended to be a third-rate magical nation, they need to be first-rate military. Centaurs with composite bows? Cataphracts with lances? Minotaurs with throwing axes, or just better training (i.e. improved attack and defense) than the old era minotaurs? Satyr Crossbowmen? Giving them strong heavy troops would fit well with the concept of the theme and their required Productivity scale.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulmish troops get hit alot, which increases the chances for lucky damage rolls. Fatigued troops also have a random chance of having their armor bypassed, IIRC.

Still, 5 to 1? This I have to see for myself.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not exactly true. Awe is countered by morale, while defense is countered by attack value. Not every high attack unit has high morale and not every high morale unit has high attack.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

In particular Entanglement and Blindess counter defense, but not Awe. Awe is nice, but is in general a weaker effect than Luck -- which is nice but not really potent.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not exactly true. Awe is countered by morale, while defense is countered by attack value. Not every high attack unit has high morale and not every high morale unit has high attack. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">High attack doesn't ignore defense - it just makes you more likely to overcome it.

The things that *ignore* defense - you don't have to roll against it at all - are missiles, damaging auras, some attack spells (e.g. Fireball), and possibly area-effect melee attacks (Harvest Blade, Abysian Salamander).

All those things also ignore awe (except possibly the Harvest Blade/Salamander type of attacks, I'm not sure how those work because they're so rare; I didn't think of them when I made the first post but they may be one case where awe is better than high defense). In addition, mindless attackers ignore awe and I believe trampling also ignores awe (but the targets do get to roll defense).

It's true that high morale units are likely to overcome awe - in addition to its other weaknesses - but the things I listed above don't even have to roll for awe.

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Does anyone else think that Pagaea should have assassins? But what would a Pangaean assassin be? Greek/Roman mythological wildlife that was stealth and attacked 1-on-1

Re: Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?
 

Not sure about the regular assassin but you could use a fungified Brutus as a hero-assassin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel