Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Although not possessing the stamina for a lengthy debate right now, i'm absolutely certain humanoid pretenders are simply not cost effective.

Why does the Manticore and Nataraja, decent fighters with reasonable or good starting dominions, cost 0 points, when the Crone, with 6 hp and 6 str, 1 dominion and no magic, costs 25 points?

Human pretenders are investments in POTENTIAL. There is no way to make a decent humanoid pretender without fronting a huge number of points.

Just some examples

50 point Human chassis, 10/path, no magic;
Dom-4, All Magic Paths-2 : 300 points, w/1-Blood: 284
Dom-4, All Paths-3 : 492 points, w/1-Blood: 452
Dom-4, Paths-4 : 748

And other Pretenders in comparison:
Son of Neifel
Water-9, Earth-4, Dom-6 : 466 points

Earth Mother
Earth-4, Nature-4, Dom-6 : 213 points

Vampire Queen
Fire-2, Air-4, Water-2, Earth-2, Death-3, Blood-2, Dom-4 : 435 points

Golden Naga
All Paths 3, no blood, Dom-4 : 510 points

Between a no-blood 3 Naga and a n.b. 3 Rainbow, there is only a 70 point difference! And thats with the double path costs!

...........................

All Human Pretenders should cost -25 points. The Crone imo should be free. Adjust from there.

[ May 01, 2004, 04:00: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

I tend to agree. Most human pretender chassis options are complete dullards for precisely this reason....the few good ones, such as the Skratti, got dropped in the patch.

Yet they *ALL* seem to be about 25-50ish...and there's simply no way that the Frost Father is in any way the equal of the Skratti.

Part of the reason for their lack of popularity could be that they ARE overpriced.

Some of the Demigod chassis options are also very overpriced. The Lord of the Gates is more or less insuperior to its counterpart, the Prince of Death, and is also possessed of the indomitable battle morale of the Moloch, to boot. Yet it costs 50 points. I think a more fair price for it would be 0 points. Lord of the Desert Sun and Father of Serpants both have similar problems....and at 125 points just for a chassis that's more or less useless as an SC, they cost way too much.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Overpriced pretenders, hmm, how about Lord of the Wild at 150? I can see why it's so expensive: stealth, maenads, recuperation, berserk (though this is not always an advantage) and all item slots. But even so, 150 seems too much, especially since it has only 2 dominion (most gigantic humanoids have 3).

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Complaining that humans mages are overpriced is beating a dead horse IMHO, everyone agrees. And I feel it badly because I like to play RB, and the only cost-effective pretender I can have is the GK, a pretty limited choice ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

To make them a little more competitive they should be in the 0-20 range (maybe 30 if they have an useful power like Enchantress or Sage...) and start with Dominion 2 (that's a 24 point saving if you go for dominion 4, as is the "standard" with such pretender.
Overall reduction will be like 50 pts. Still not a match if you plan to have some paths at 4+, but standard RB (level 2/6 paths) will at least have a decent price.
Another idea could be to make them Immortal, so having them killed (and that's pretty easy with their stats http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )won't be such a game killer (the -1 in each path makes recalled RBs useless..). Let's pretend they master resurrection magic ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 01, 2004, 15:36: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

First of all, I assume you're talking about the size-2 humanoids (crone etc.) and archmage on a horse, not the giant humanoids like Son of Niefel, Titans etc. (which I think are mostly fine, I wouldn't call the Father of Serpents or LotDS useless as SCs although they don't have the instant appeal of Vampire Queen; maybe you just mean you can't send them to take provinces alone because of their free troops, but one archer way in the back on fire (whatever) solves that problem).

Rainbow mages were greatly weakened by the new bless system: they're pretty much guaranteed to have no useful blessing or a very weak one, while something like a Cyclops or Titan gets a useful blessing practically free. Father of Serpents and Lord of the Desert Sun both start with two paths, one of them at 2, which makes a significant difference at higher levels, and they're physically strong so they can lead armies and cast on the battlefield without fear. (In fact the Father of Serpents causes fear in his enemies.)

They have no magic skills except what you buy for them (thus they effectively cost another 50 or so points above their base cost - you have to get a lot of paths to make them even semi-worthwhile), are physically weak and have weak dominion. Few have any useful special ability. 0-20 points seems fair (0 for crone, maybe 10 for ones that start with 1 in a path like frost father/master druid/etc, 20 for the ones with a path *and* a good special like enchantress) - although they might be a little weak even then.

Having all possible paths of magic isn't that useful anyway: you can still only use at most two paths at a time (and that's only if they have a cooperative spell), except when searching; and pretender searching is slow and inefficient. The only real advantages rainbow mages have are high pretender research and a wide selection of personal buffs in combat, but that isn't enough to offset more powerful battlefield magic with less fatigue, easier access to high level rituals/globals and a strong blessing, even without the increased physical might (and often dominion too!) of demigods, rocks, monsters and other pretenders.

Actually, I think the best solution would be for the archmage pretenders to pay a reduced cost to buy up magic paths. If they pay 10 for new paths *and* half price for buying up paths, then they could really be magical powerhouses, and be pretty effective even with a modest point investment. This counterbalances their physical weakness (which makes them glass cannons on the battlefield), weak dominion and even their current high base cost.

In fact, if different gods can pay different amounts to buy up magic paths, there's no reason that can't be applied to all pretenders: humaniod mages and most immobiles pay 50%, nagas, ghost king, liches and medusa pay 75%, demigods, virtue, moloch and PoD pay 100%, vampire queen, bulls and dragons pay 125%, wyrm and manticore pay 150%, for example. Since the most physically mighty pretenders pay the most for high levels of magic, this would make it difficult to have physically strong pretenders that are also powerful mages (unless you count immobiles, which are physically tough but have a hard time using it offensively).

This makes the most "instant supercombatant" gods more expensive (at least if you want strong magic on them), while making the less popular and less directly threatening mage-gods cheaper. I think it would lead to more diverse pretender selection in both SP and MP. I do admit that it would require some new code, though; it's not something that can be playtested quickly in a mod.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a really neat idea, to let someone play with magic at a lower risk.

From the pretender description: The Arch Mage is a mage who has attained such power that he has mastered his own mortality. Granted this probably just means he will never die from old age, but maybe it can be interpreted as immortality. I dont think an immortal low-cost 7-slot rainbow mage would be imbalancing, it is almost useless for expansion... if you equip it and send it into a fight you can lose all those items to a stray arrow.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

I like Chris' idea, but then, like PDF, I like to play these weak pretenders, so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

I'm up for empowering the humans pretenders ...
I like to play a lot with them ... but how to say ... what do you think when they become killed from a "seeking arrow"?
A pretender god not so godly.

They've no skill in combat.
And effectively haven't that great advantage on other Gods cause lower starting Dominion and no starting path ...

I'll change to ALL pretenders New Path Cost and Magic Level acquiring is different.

Simply the 1st level added to the chassis base is New Path Cost.
The second level is New Path Cost*2, or 3/2.
The third should be New Path Cost*3, or 2.

And so on.
Reviewing all the New Paths Costs this should be nice ... even if this idea is similar to those of the % costs.
_________________________________________________
This is for what concern Magic.
The other problem is their phisical weakness.
Immortality should be fine ... but perhaps too strong.

Because they're often Rainbow ... they'll lose a lot of Magic by Death. I'll grant immunity to this.
However they're still killed easily.
Cause they're weak and not prepared to Hand to Hand, I suggest only a little improvement in their stats. And that all should have a magic defence from rituals like seeking arrows, and so on. Probably they're skilled in magic ... so on if they've at least the same magic level of the ritual casted [or of the Caster] (ie 3 air for the Magic Arrow, or more if a more powerful air mage has casted) they "dispel it automatically" ...
This is to choose if only those targetting them, or the province (mmm the arrow probably is heading to someone near him or he can perceive the spell incoming.). In that case the human pretender should be a sort of mobile Air Dome.

Alternative ^^ House Rule: All human Pretenders.
(however seeking arrows, horrors, earth elementals and so on kills them easily unless in late game ... wish for power, total item equipped and so on)
_________________________________________________
Reducing only the starting cost wouldn't help at all ... having 20 30 points more? What's that ... 1 magic level more or 1 dominion level more ... too small.
_________________________________________________E diting after having read the post above.
The VQ base cost doesn't matter for Ermor til he can earn 600 points from bad scales ^^ and Mictlan too ...

[ May 02, 2004, 05:52: Message edited by: Cohen ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

all I can say is up with the humanoids, down with the vampire queens. Not to hijack this into yet another vq thread, but their costing the same as any of their undead immortal pretender competition (such as the bog mummy and lich) but being so obviously superior in almost every way is pretty ridiculous. They should cost 200 IMHO.

[ May 02, 2004, 05:47: Message edited by: Slygar ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

There are ways to protect the RB against all the assassination spells. There is no need to make them innately immune to them.

Likewise, immortality would be too much. It is something reserved for powerful undead creatures (and the Phoenix). As human mages seeking ascendancy through sheer bredth of knowledge and sleigh of hand they are supposed to be physically fragile.

Making them cost less overall (base cost, path cost, dominion cost, one or more of these) would be enough.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

If human-sized mage pretender dies and is recalled, he shouldn't lose one from his all paths. Maybe 1 point from three random paths, but not one from every one! And it could be even less, depending on how IW sees things.

This would take care of the biggest problem with rainbows: they wouldn't become useless after a single arrow. 40 priest-turns of preaching to get back something that is only barely better than 8 sages with different randoms? With big ones, even if he has no magic left he would still be useable as a supercombatant.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

So little to no loss on losing your pretender? Better to kill them off than try to cure their afflictions?

Personally, I don't feel those fit the Category. Neither does Immortality, or anything of that nature.

Lowering costs and increasing starting Dominion are in my mind more applicable. Even giving all human pretenders not on a horse Stealthy would, to me, feel more at home. I would rather see a prevalance of non-human "SC" Pretenders, than lowering the costs so much that it's more cost effective and gem effective to use Rainbows.

Perhaps giving base casting abilities centered around their inital Path might be more limiting and less game changing. Or perhaps a Focus of Magic based on their initial magic. I don't know if it's codable, but certainly better than slapping Immortality on every one and making the end game even more ungodly unbearable for invading forces.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can understand your perspective but im uncertain if some of the Titan chassis are underpowered or just being used improperly. Those with weak magic skills but decent dominion still have good hit points and strength. The Prince of Death has far better inherent protection but less than half the hitpoints and is undead, giving it another vulnerability. I see the 50 point Pretenders to be just average choices, when you want some magic and blessings but don't want to give up many points or choose a cheap, weak body. Although ill be honest none of these uninspired, underpowered Titans make me want to choose them over a Moloch or PoD, who can reach magic-9 much cheaper.

Rainbows aren't completely worthless. Reaping 20-30 gems a turn by turn twenty through natural sites, not globals or clams alone, infuses your economy with enormous potential and a trove whose value is hard to measure. Their high research more quickly reaches a desired spell or path, especially early.

But to fulfill their true potential as forgers and ritual casters, you really need a 3-path instead of a cheaper 2-path. At 2 even with forging you'll be hard pressed to get any path above 5. At 3 you'll have even more gems and an be even closer to the 'global cap'. But a true 3 costs virtually every point you're given, and a bloodless 3 only slightly better. Of course you can and should make compromises, increase and decrease paths and not rigidly stick to a uniform distribution.

But the question is: is a 3-Path Rainbow worth 492 points for what it does? Forfeiting an amazing 12 scale steps, four whole scales, for that privilege? Is that worth missing out on 3-Magic, 3-Order, 3-Growth, 3-Productivity?

You might think im leading up towards a resounding no, but im really not. But the base human chassis are generally insufficient. Some unique humanoids are generally better in every way; the Divine Emperor looks like another sucker, and without any hand slots to boot, but he has 2-Dom, 1 Astral and 4 misc. slots, making him an uber ritual caster. But others, like the Arch-Druid, have no meaningful advantage.

Were i to be asked for suggestions to improve them these would be my responses;


All Humanoid cost -25 (includes unique chassis).

Also each should have perhaps 2 or 3 additional magic paths, even the Crone. Something thematic and appropriate of course.

Consider -

Crone: 1 Astral, 1 Death, 1 Water
Great Sage: 1 Air, 1 Fire, 1 Water
Frost Father: 2 Water, 1 Air, 1 Earth
Enchantress: 2 Astral, 1 Fire, 1 Earth
Freak Lord: 1 Death, 1 Nature, 1 Blood

ect,...

This might be too much when you hit the blessing threshold around 4. Total savings should probably be around about 50-75 points.

[ May 02, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

However the point all there we agree is that human pretenders are too weak compared to others.
And lowering their cost isn't sufficient to have a real gain.

However I believe Illwinter is already working on them, dunno how exactly however.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

My main problem with using Rainbows is not just picking up a bunch of paths, but all of the associated costs with it, primarily Dominion.

If all you did was raise their Base Dominion from 1 to 2:

Lets say an Average Dominion is 5, the Lowest Possible usable Dominion is 3

4 Steps of Dominion = 70. Last step (from 4 to 5) = 28 Points

2 Steps of Dominion = 21. Last step (from 2 to 3) = 14 Points

I'd say 95% of the time I lean towards 5+ in Dominion in serious competition. Only certain nations will I not use a higher end Dominion.

While not impressive at Dominion 3, it becomes that way as you buy more Dominion.

If you wanted to give each Human Pretender another Path of magic I wouldn't mind, though not to the degree that Gene stated, not because they don't figure well, but because it just feels like too many paths for such a low costing pretender and they are essentially prebuilt 'rainbows'. Giving only one additional path would allow someone to try to use a blessing instead of instantly going to Rainbow.

[ May 02, 2004, 08:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lowering the cost isn't sufficient to have a real gain? Why not? Having more points isn't a gain?

I believe the point is not that they are too weak compared to others, but that there is actually a very limited set of Pretenders that most competitive players choose from instead of being able to use the variety of Pretenders that exist. So it has nothing to do with 'weak' and everything to do with 'usability'.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Well

Adding a Dominion Point:
7*X
X = current dominion reached - starting chassis dominion.

Adding a Level in Magic Path, except the new one.
8*X
X= current Magic Level reached - starting chassis Magic Level.

So on having an higher dominion, or some magic levels should make them a little more powerful.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Why not increase the magic paths of human pretenders? I could imagine that archmage learn the one trick or the other while being immortal. Lets say each experience point increases one of his magic paths.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Well like everyone I agree that it is hard to find a reason to take one of the human Pretenders. (Although it took me awhile to figure that out.) Personally, I like the idea of making them better while also making them more unique. I mean right now they're basically all the same Pretender except for one piddling "special" ability that in many cases you'll hardly use. So I like the idea of giving them more/different paths to start with, or giving them more in the way of special abilities (like PDF has suggested except moreso).

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">By "Special" abilities that you'll hardly ever use, I guess the great druid's bonus to casting vinemen / ogres? Nice bonus in a sense, but using a pretender to summon vinemen is such an incredible waste that it's rarely going to be done.

Might be different if the druid started with Vine Men / Ogres as an intrinsic spell. Or if the bonus was in the form of a unique misc item, that could be handed off to another nature mage.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

IMO, giving them a single path bonus would make them one trick ponies which, to me, is kind of against their nature as variety casters. Maybe if they had a small bonus to every path ?

Some ideas:
1) Automatically site search the province they are in during the appropriate phase (IE, without spending an extra turn to do it).
2) When they spend a turn to search a site, all adjacent provinces get a half strength search, rounded down.
3) Can use turn to remote search a province.

- Kel

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The bog mummy and lich cost 110, and require 40 points to start a new oath of magic. They have 0 combat ability, and the only thing useful about them is their high starting death magic and immortality. There's absolutely no reason to make them 200 points.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think that this would fill the gap and would make them autorainbows. If something like this is going to be implemented I would hope it would be after a certain point of paths (Like 9).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a good idea, I don't know if they should get 20% and if anyone should get a Forge Bonus it probably should be the Archmage. As that is the one real 'cross-magic bonus' that could be used for any paths.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Hey wait, I had a new idea : give those crappy human mages a SPELL CASTING bonus (as some sites do) !
Let's say :
Enchantress : 20% bonus for Enchantment
Druid : 20% for Conjuration
Sage : 20% for Construction (or Forge bonus ?)
Frost Father : 20% for Alteration
(etc, fill the rest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Or stg along those lines...This will make them really "unique", and what they should be : magic specialists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
It will also give players a "strategic" reason to buy them when they want to try The_UberSpellCombo_of_Doom http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
And I think this should be *in addition* to the +1 dominion.
What do you think ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Well, I don't believe that having a reduced cost in casting rituals is so effective to get them unless it's very high.

An probably the best would be the one with Conjuration Bonus ... to have lot of troops, or if he returns, the Abysyan Great Warlock, with blood bonus.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, exactly. That, the Freak Lord's trample ability, and the Frost Father having Cold Resistance, are almost worthless, seems to me. The Enchantress's free pearl every turn is nice enough, I'll grant you that. And the Arch Mage's "special" of having three strategic move is OK. Neither really compares with things like immortality or lots of hit points and attack power.

But my point is that not only are the various human-type pretenders not very good, they are also all but identical. So if I ran the show around here, I'd kill two birds with one stone by making each of the human pretenders good at something (something useful, not summoning vine men), instead of having all of them be jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none rainbow mages with slightly different color text.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

I also agree that lots of pretenders are underpowered and thus not used in competitive play. I think if all pretenders were given recuperation then Immortality won't be as overpowered as it is now. Other than that, a total overhaul and rebalancing of costs and powers with MP in mind and not costing them in terms of roleplaying flavor would be helpful. The only problem is that the devs don't have much experience in MP it seems so it would be nice if they would host their own polls and discussions to arrive at a conclusion.

I really don't think they should leave it up to modders to balance pretenders.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Something else that might help balance immortality would be to slightly diminish the death penalty for non-immortals. Instead of all paths being reduced by one, maybe _half_ the paths being reduced by one, randomly determined. Or restoring a path costs half what the normal empowerment does, or reducing a path to 0 takes 2 deaths (thus allowing someone to empower up to 2 and start the clock ticking again).

Alternatively: Make "real" death for immortals worse; it'd balance things _slightly_ if immortals dropped 2 magic levels for a real death. Wouldn't help much - actually it'd just make certain that no one ever took their pretender near hostile domain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They haven't left balance up to the Modders, the Modders can 'balance' whatever they'd like and their Version of balance (whatever that may be) is achieved. Modding is a privilage so you can play the game how you envisioned it, not a tool for balance.

While the Dev's may not play 'hardcore' MP they do play MP because that is how the game is designed, though it is more aligned with Roleplay than efficency or 'fairness'.

[ May 03, 2004, 04:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Many of the human pretenders have 10-point path costs. Since they also cost significantly fewer points, that is already like giving them the option of being rainbow pretenders.

I haven't heard anything convincing yet that the immortals or non-humans are better than their point costs. For supercombatant pretenders, well, it would be unnatural if it were otherwise.

PvK

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't say they cost SIGNIFICANTLY fewer points by any stretch. A typical human pretender chassis runs for perhaps 30-50 points....which is not all that much smaller than, say, a Nataraja or a Dragon.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Perhaps the human pretenders could get the benefit of their own bless effect? It would be a nice little perk, without being particularly unbalancing, and it would also be in theme with them being highly skilled magicians.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know that this would have that big of an impact, since most people seem to use the humans as rainbow mages and thus don't get very powerful bless effects.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course - but then by giving them bless effects you have a reason to use them as something else than just rainbow mages.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

As berserking suicide militia, maybe? Remember, bless effects were meant to be used on units, not mages! Berserk especially, and others to a lesser degree.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

The one RB that isn't overpriced is the aquatic archmage for atlantis and the squiddies.

0 points, starts with 1 water.

Then again, the usefulness before you get amulet of the fish, given the tendencies for indies to fly underwater is VERY limited.

Rabe the Gillable

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Shouldn't a Rainbow mage cost as much as a Bless Effect or Competent SC pretender?

I mean, is everyone overlooking the tremendous advantage of gem income if they are able to Last long enough to use it?

It's been said and I believe firmly that a Rainbow Pretender is useful if you are allowed the time in order to get the gem income up where you want it to be. The advantage in forging and rituals is significant mid-late game.

Why shouldn't rainbows cost as much for such an advantage?

Note: I am in favor of either A.) Giving them special abilities or B.) Lowering their cost by a moderate degree but I don't think that everyone should be playing Rainbows or have that as the only option with Human pretenders. I think that is the reason that they are so unappealing, because you can neither have a bless effect or a combative pretender with them. Only rainbows.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

And costly rainbows at that. A bless effect or a combative pretender can be had with more points left for other things.

[ May 03, 2004, 19:33: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That ain't true : a RB with weak dominion cost nearly AS MUCH as a magic-competent SC chassis or Bless-effect path-9 pretender. He is significantly weaker though...
Example :
Druid F2 A2 E2 S3 D2 N2, dom 4, 10 hp, puny stats, that guy gets "bonus" Vine stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif : 260 points !

Son of Niefel W4 any-4 dom 5, 90 hp, str 28 etc... This one gets a free Winter Wolf each turn, without even using the turn to do so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif : 240 points !!!!
Moloch Fire-9 dom 5, 55 hp, Fear, Flying, Fire resistant : 264 points !!

Where's the problem ? I didn't even compare to a VQ or GK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So having only two magic paths isn't a weakness? Having an SC pretender is worth being able to search and develop four other magic paths? Being able to summon five Vine Ogres for one nature gem is not useful? Pretender being stealthy and having forest survival are not useful?

I guess I see where you are going (SC helps early expansion, which can snowball), but since they are apple vs. orange play style differences, I'm not sure how much it should be worth. I think RB pretenders are quite useful, especially if the magic sites are plentiful enough and the game Lasts long enough to get into good research, at which point spells and summons and items tend to make the tough SC less important. On the other hand, I do think there are probably some examples of pretender costs that might be good to tweak for balance.

PvK

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Well, I am just a newbie and all that but, even if Rainbow are great and all thus... what actually is there advantage against a nation SC or Bless Pretender that have access to an Astral national mage or hero to Acashic to his leisure...

I personnaly have an hard time playing RB as I tend to keep them with their researching ubberness at home then I really have trouble having them scout the countryard meaning I am going to lose 20+ RP for the "possibility" of finding some site I could eventually find later on with spells.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd suggest that Caelum's Seraphine (65 points, but starts with flight, 1 air magic, and cold immunity) isn't overpriced either - but it should serve to show how ridiculously overpriced some others are. (I may be putting too much value on flight, but I don't think so.)

And the Jotun's Skratti and Abyssia's Great Warlock (both now missing in action in 2.11) were also worth their cost, as I recall.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few are:

* Being able to do so without spending all those astral gems.

* Being able to do so much earlier than other nations, for a magical snowball effect.

* Being able to use a very wide variety of spells, summons and items, use them together, etc.

* Being able to get a bigger head start on research.

Quote:

I personnaly have an hard time playing RB as I tend to keep them with their researching ubberness at home then I really have trouble having them scout the countryard meaning I am going to lose 20+ RP for the "possibility" of finding some site I could eventually find later on with spells.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rainbow pretenders make very good researchers, but there are usually better things for them to do (that can't be done by purchasable units, perhaps with items), except maybe during the first few turns.

PvK

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Given that an SC pretender means more provinces to search and more income to build mages to search with, it's hard to see, losing the ability for a single pretender to run around searching seems to be, at best, an even trade off and, at worse, totally inefficient. (Note this is why I made the suggestion of letting them auto-search a province without spending a turn on it)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am sure this depends, somewhat, on the SC but I think its not hard to build an SC that gives you the advantages of the forging and the rituals that your nation doesn't normally provide while still being an effective SC. I like to use a 4-5/4 N/E Nat, for example, playing Arco. With natural mages covering gaps, that leaves only D/B paths weak. I realize that arco lets me use Nat with less fear of afflictions so take the VQ, so much under scrutiny now, which is half rainbow in addition to being an effective SC. Maybe for a nation that has both poor natural mages and no access to effective rainbow SC's, like the VQ, AND is playing in a game with conducive settings/map, could fully benefit from an RB pretender.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want everyone playing rainbow pretenders either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I don't think there is a lot of danger in that right now, though, unless we truly over-compensate.

- Kel

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where is the potential to be afflicted and die and lose magic in site searching? Do you have to wait for items/magic levels to site search? What kind of versitility of effects do you get from site searching? (I'll answer this one for you, gold, units, fortresses, temples, gems and magic bonuses).


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is alot of points for a "SC". Take a VQ with alot of paths and play Ermor a gem only income and explain to me how much of a decision it is to search provinces or use your SC. And at what point in time do you make those decisions.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think there is danger in it either. But it is because you want to make rainbows more attractive with the human pretenders that is the problem.

Ask yourself this question. "If I chose a Human Pretender right now, what would I do with it?" Now apply the changes you mentioned. Does this change the answer to that question? I don't think so. I would rather see using each pretender for a different type of role rather than making a whole slew of pretenders good at just one thing and one thing only. Sure, make a few like that. Archmage, Sage. Those should be Rainbows, but Frost Father? Druid? Why should they be regulated to Rainbow status. I would rather have some of them be useful for other things as well.

[ May 04, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That ain't true : a RB with weak dominion cost nearly AS MUCH as a magic-competent SC chassis or Bless-effect path-9 pretender. He is significantly weaker though...
Example :
Druid F2 A2 E2 S3 D2 N2, dom 4, 10 hp, puny stats, that guy gets "bonus" Vine stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif : 260 points !

Son of Niefel W4 any-4 dom 5, 90 hp, str 28 etc... This one gets a free Winter Wolf each turn, without even using the turn to do so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif : 240 points !!!!
Moloch Fire-9 dom 5, 55 hp, Fear, Flying, Fire resistant : 264 points !!

Where's the problem ? I didn't even compare to a VQ or GK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Although there are plenty of good ideas on how to improve human pretenders, and believing most of them would work, i wouldn't want to raise a Humans initial dominion. True, it would help save some points (i think 4 is minimum, but i could see 3 if you took negative scales for a super-4 rainbow), but really its for thematic reasons, and id hate to ruin the games charm with too much +/- balancing irregardless of the storyline.

After all, a decrepit wizard with 6-inch nails secluded in his dusty study, jealously pouring over the Necronomicon, doesn't give off the same Aura of divine power as would a 50' tall naked woman with breasts the size of cars.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With a humanoid RB ? I don't know, how often does a seeking arrow kill ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, you have to wait for provinces which will come slower without an SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having the option to either site search or do combat isn't a downside, it's an upside! With my Nat, who is cheaper than a full RB, I site search all the time. Oh, I don't send him out to site search specifically but while he isn't searching in all the paths, he makes up for it by already being in provinces, doing his SC duties.

With an RB, you have to move to a province abd site search. With an SC, you are already in a searchable province. On top of that, since you are talking about not waiting for items, your RB won't even be flying/survival'd so your movement is hampered.

2 turns with an SC = 1 province and 1 search.
2 turns with an RB = 1 friendly move and 1 search.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it wasn't really my crusade, I was just coming up with some ideas for what others saw as a problem. Then I saw something I felt needed some counter-points and should probably have just kept my mouth shut, eh ? Oh well, I am in it now.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a fair way to approach it. If you applied both of the first two changes (I think they were auto search and search neighbors at half strength), I would use her for research at first and then definitely send her out to do site searches. I might wait until I forged some winged boots and some sort of protection from random remote attacks but then again, I might not, I might just send her out and send someone to catch up with her to deliver them.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair enough, I can agree with that!

I still don't really like discounted bonuses on magic paths because I think it will be hard to balance it so that 1 humanoid pretender isn't always best for certain nations. You might be able to use some of the paths (like construction which tends to be researched anyway). I would also be afraid of giving more power to rush strategies, based around a single spell.

Coming up with other ideas (or using some of the ones listed) would add variety, though, certainly.

- Kel

Note, another idea that occurs...could have some of them affect local scales . Druid, for example, causing growth-3 in his province, growth-1 in neighboring provinces ? Or better, maybe a 3 scale shift so you can't abuse it by taking death-3. Hey, Frost Father, go sit in that castle next to Abysia's front lines, please. Etc.

[ May 04, 2004, 01:23: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

As a player preferring to play RBs from personal taste, I'm more and more reluctant to use them, because their so-called "advantages" end up being very much ineffective...
The high RP is an initial advantage, but doesn't compete with the initial advantages of SC in conquering indies;
The site search is slow and a 6+ path RBs hasn't a so big advantage over a 2 or 3 paths pretender + a couple national mages (except for Ulm, granted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )
The "rainbowness" isn't that useful in casting or forging, because you have a *weak* level in all paths, and for the non-national paths you've to have the RB forges himself boosting items... For the other you are not (and often less ...) powerful than the national mages so they can do the work themselves ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
On the downside, having 10 hp makes a pretender very fragile, be it to seeking arrow, early disease (never caught that on the initial search runs on turn 10 ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ), assassins etc...

I don't even think the human mages can be made to compete with VQ, Moloch etc : they should have "useful" and colourful/unique abilities, to make them fun to play.
But mainly, gameplay-wise, they should be meant to allow players to have a CHEAP pretender and spend points on dominion, scales and castle.

So they need to be significantly cheaper : somthing like 0-20 points, dominion 2, and starting with either 2 or 3 level-1 or 2 paths, plus a nice ability for each "chassis".
In the end you'll have more or less the same guys, but costing some 80 points less, enough for 2 scales tips or a nice castle (Wiz Tower being appropriate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

Maybe scratch or at least redo all the current humanoid pretenders, to give them some abilities that might be attractive throughout the game.

Example of a touchup job: The Great Druid might get a 10% bonus to all nature conjurations, possibly forging nature items as well. Then he might be viable - saving 10% of the gems on big summonings is valuable throughout the game.

Likewise the Great Alchemist - let him transmute one type of gem to another at a 3 for 2 ratio. All of a sudden, he might be useful for Ulm, because any unwanted death, air, etc, gems could be more efficiently transformed into fire and earth.

The Great Sage: Presumably he might better direct the studies of _all_ his researchers, so each in his dominion gets +1 research ability, regardless of scales. Useful throughout the game, possibly even for Ulm or other Drain setups.

A new humanoid: Summoner. 20% bonus on all summoning spells (or possibly, raise his effective level by 1 for all summonings, allowing him to cast spells he otherwise couldn't, and get extra summoned critters on some spells.)

Another: Necromancer, who could be given some minor bonus to death spells, always has a skeleton by his side.

Great Diviner: A master of divination, he has discovered the secrets to Godhood itself. 10% bonus to all divining spells (Auspex, Dark Knowledge, even Akashic Record), minimum -1 reduction on spell cost.

The Great Warlord: A master of the art of war, his presence inspires armies to greatness. The only thing left to conquer is Godhood. (Give him extra hitpoints and combat skill, make magic paths cost 20 or 30 instead of 10, but he gives _all_ friendly troops +1 morale, attack, and defense when he is on the field of battle. Or all troops get one of those bonuses throughout his empire.)

The Grand Enchanter: Troops created in a province he is in have enchanted weapons (+1 attack + damage, considered magic).

Again, my idea is to give human pretenders thematic bonuses that might actually be useful throughout the game, where right now their "bonuses" are limitted to the start of the game.

For instance : Great Druid's extra Vine Men / Ogres? Possibly useful in the early game, if your fortress is besieged and you can't recruit, so you switch him to summoning Vines. Otherwise, even in the early game, you waste his research by summoning, and late game, vine critters are useless.

Great Sage or Enchantress : The initial research bonus is nice, likewise the astral gem per turn. As the game goes on though, you have enough researchers, enough sources of gems, that the bonus ceases to be relevant.

Some of these are probably unbalanced right now. But, heh! Less unbalanced than the VQs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 04, 2004, 17:31: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure you are playing Dominions ?