Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I've been watching the Boards and a lot of posters have concluded that the Vampire Queen pretender is overpowered, to the level that one poster reported multiple nations picking that chassis. Since otherwise in this game practically everything has a (sometimess very nation-specific) counter, if people are deciding that the only way to stop a VQ is to have one yourself, this is a very serious problem. Here are a couple of solutions (these may be totally unworkable but I'm trying to help, ok?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
1. The Switcheroo: The players are asked to design a pretender for a (randomly drawn) nation. Then after that's done, the players receive notice that they are now playing someone else's nation/pretender combo. Result: You know there's a VQ out there-- you have the receipt-- and it ain't yours. Now go beat down on your own creation. If you can... (Oh and players must design to less than say 15 design points remaining. We don't want players ending up with crippled pretenders, although the punishment would likely be getting one back... so maybe this is self-policing)

2. (simpler, don't have a name for it yet): This assumes the Game-master can look at the creations. If it is noted that two (or more) nations have selected the same chassis, all of them must redesign to a different avatar. If they match again (haven't decided if it's a problem for landing on a previously innocent one-- some nations don't have that many choices) they have to switch again. If they match a third time the still-matched players have to design each other's pretender as in #1 above.

Is this Completely Off Base, Unworkable, or Just Too Obvious?
Or something else?

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

A large part of the fun of this game, for me, is designing and playing a pretender. Playing someone else's pretender would be much less fun.

The solution I've recently used is to create a house rule strictly limiting use of the VQ. If someone cheats and uses a VQ when they shouldn't, it will become very obvious very quickly.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:15: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?
And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

I believe this is not realizable.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

The end result being that usually, the objective was to create the most perversely useless god combination possible, in hopes that you end up running the creation of someone less creative than you. I heard the blood-9 manticore was rather popular.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Well, I take the less cost chassis, a Crone.
Assign all scale at -3.
Oks, I've about 1000 points to spend ...

Mmmm let's click on *ready* ...

Who want to play with this Crone?

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

If lots of people choose VQ, that just means lots of people think it's powerful and/or want to try it.

If a group of players really think it's too much and wish VQ's were weaker, it's a few lines of modding to tone her down somehow. In the thread suggesting such, I think we were leaning toward simply increasing her cost or her points required for new magic paths (and/or reducing her starting paths).

PvK

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that its possible to kill reliably the VQ of an opponent doesnt means she is not unbalanced.

If I take a parallel, the German Atlantic Wall was a success. It costed far more for the allies compared to its costs (roughly 2 billions dollars) to the German. You have to take into consideration the direct cost of something, and the indirect cost too, and often the indirect cost is far more important to consider.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why don't you provide a method for every nation to easily defeat an elemental immune VQ with full equipment, MR in the 30's, all three damage shields, five or six mirror images, mistform, luck, and protection in the 20's. Note that this has to be a solution that works _after_ she has finished her buffing spells, as you can't guarantee that she won't come without an army in front of her. It also has to be a solution that can work multiple turns in a row.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The insults make you look really mature.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, you will find tactics that are available to a few of the nations in rather special cases, and which mostly require that she be caught alone so that every spell hits her.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Note the "Lose his entire army to one". If that's not overpowered for a naked SC, then I don't know what is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not one of the "VQ Terror Squad", but actually I'd say that no there is not an ingame solution. Yes you can kill VQs. Problem is that it doesn't gain you anything. She doesn't lose magic paths. She doesn't waste 1-6 turns of the nations time as they try to call her back. It doesn't even get the VQ off your back, because the ***** flies right back! It's like you're swatting cockroaches with a sledgehammer.

In addition, you wind up wasting your time with Vampire Death Squads, which you have to build a lot of, because you can't tell where she'll strike (except you know it'll be friendly dominion for her). These VDS's aren't optimal for regular combat, so they're collecting upkeep twiddling their thumbs hoping they'll stumble across the VQ, who is probably smart enough to avoid those armies.

Frankly, the VQs are exasperating because too many people consider them the ultimate pretender (and they do have a bigger pile of goodies than any other, imo). In one game, 3 of the closest empires to me had VQs, on my borders, at once. It's nuts.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Funny how some people react sometimes : on the ground that a VQ is beatable they dismiss the issue of its/her unbalance.
We aren't talking of strategies against VQ, but about balance and variety in Pretenders.
That a VQ is overpowered is just obvious when you compare her to other or only look at her abilities.
If someone can claim and demonstrate "Well, my Druid ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )is as much powerful/useful than a VQ" (using same point cost)we could progress. Else competitive MP will be plagued by VQs and people of bad faith that don't see any issue with this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ...
Let's also propose a temporary fix : ban'em http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif !

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I have said this before - If you do not believe the VQ is unbalanced then you either have never met one in a Multi-player game with someone who knows how to use them (Norfleet, Catquiet etc...)or you yourself use them most of the time. One question for those VQ Users - do you not want more of a challange?? I play multiplayer to be challanged how about you?? I think it is time to ask the developers this question. What do they think??

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why ban them? Make a mod and use it in MP games.
I'm for increasing their overall and path cost.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Most of the players won't use mod in MP, cause none can assure these players does the mod to advantage them or however, which is their balancing skill.

So on it's better for all us to tell there our complaints, and wait for Devs to answer there, and to change something in the next patch, if they choose to.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

The VQ is immortal and can easily become an SC, and she's not too expensive either. It should be pretty obvious why a cheap immortal SC is overpowered.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Anglachel:
[qb]

Quote:

You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The insults make you look really mature.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Insult? Just thought it was merely a descriptive turn of phrase. At least that was how I meant it at any rate. Didn't realize also that you could glean maturity from one sentence posted on a board. Guess I should have written something like "You guys fuss about the Vampire Queen too much." But wait, somone might find that insulting as well and question my maturity yet again(curious that you find my maturity a subject of interest). So what is a person to do? Guess I had better not express any opinions then. They could be interpreted as insulting as well!

Seriously though,I just like the image evoked from the phrase I used. Didn't realize you found insult in such things so easily. My apologies to everybody. It's stuff like this that keeps me from posting on Boards usually. I I find this board to be exceptional in lack of taking things out of context, petty bickering, arguing for the sake of arguing, and petty, personal comments that I fail to find has any relevance on the topic at hand. But I guess there are always exceptions. Oh well, I will content myself to sitting on the sidelines and just reading the Boards. Take it easy.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed. VQs are, at face value and after some experience playing them, just a little too much better than the average Pretender. Generally, if I know that there's a Pretender I'll play for 95% of the games (the other 5% being small map, difficult research or something of the like) I enter into with a certain country in MP, it's either a matter of extreme personal taste and comfort or it's a matter of that Pretender having a disproportionate advantage over its fellows.

As has been mentioned in other threads, either the VQ needs a slight power-down (loss of flight or ethereal might be enough) or a good number of other pretenders need a slight power-up.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's extremely difficult to do, with your "mad castling and temple-ing" strat.

It's broken, admit it.

You should be proud that you found a chink in the ruleset armor, but that doesn't mean it needs to be preserved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


Rabe the Large (sacrificial) Lamb.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't claim to be a skilled multi-player. But I don't see why eliminating your opponent's dominion is something you "have to do anyway." Surely it is better to have a province with an enemy's dominion in it than to not have the province at all, right? Especially if the enemy's dominion is something relatively benign, like high order and productivity. You won't benefit from his nice stuff, but it only hurts you to the extent that it impinges on your own dominion's benefits. Of course it would be even better if it had your dominion, but if you keep taking over the enemy's territory, building the occasional temple and whatnot on the way, then surely his dominion will start to decline. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The problem comes in when the other guys dominion is actively unpleasant. That's when you have to work hard to reduce it and restrict it, as opposed to just taking over the territory and watching the dominion gradually switch as a matter of course.

Thus, it seems to me that the argument that you can deal with the immortality of the VQ simply by doing the things you would do against any opponent seems flawed to me. Combating the dominion of the VQ requires an extra effort, making it that much harder to research, build a strong army, etc.

[ May 03, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Vynd ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also I haven't been around long enough to really get all that deep into things, but I see there's been quite a run of response in 12 hours, I'll have to wade through the rest and maybe modify the idea. If and when I get into an MP (is there a MP rookie league?) I want there to be a variety of designs out there, not variations on a (rather depressing) theme...
Oh and the closest I've come to anything involving clams is that when I picked that picture I'd had fish and chips for lunch that day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The players have to use it on their end too. It's simple to see what exactly a mod does, especially a small one.

PvK

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Loss of ethereal would be a pretty big nerf... though I'm not saying I'm opposed to it...

It would make her near useless in the early game (unless she takes Astral)... but probably no less powerful in the mid-to-late game. The reasoning behind that statement being: ethereal+luck+armor (and Enc 0) is basically unstopable against indie troops... but ethereal is meaningless when facing other player's SC's who presumably will be equiped with magic weapons.

While that does address my major issue with her... ie that she is "uber" throughout the game, while most SC Pretenders have to "retire" to the library at some point... I'm not sure about it.

If you did that, then all the VQ lovers would just switch to GK's and then we'd encounter an uprising to nerf them.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It means she doesn't get to wear Elemental Armor. That means a lot.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that 0 encumbrance is an important part of the VQ's arsenal, too. And Drain Life as her natural weapon doesn't help matters.

Of course besides all the stuff that makes the VQ a great SC, she also starts with 1 Death 2 Blood magic. And she gets free vampires from time to time. And she's stealthy, and... But I digress.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anyone else notice that the biggest defenders of the VQ are the ones that play her in almost every game? Yes, I'm aware that you probably know more ways to deal with this nuisance than most, having spent significant time playing her.

The point you are either missing, or ignoring because adressing it would change the way you "like to play" is this: Just because you can handle something does not mean it's not overpowered when taken in the context of the game. Your arguments sound a lot like someone who is arguing that longbows are not better than slingers by pointing out the weaknesses of longbows. The frailties of longbowmen do not change the fact that they are, in every respect superior to a slinger, so much so that no Man player will ever buy a slinger.

I do not want to personally attack you Norfleet, I'm rather new here and I don't try to start flamewars... but ask yourself this. Would you use the same VQ chassis if it cost 150 points instead of 110? I suspect the answer is yes. Would you still use her if she lost a misc slot? Probably. Idealy this game should be so well balanced that losing any of her attributes would make another unit superior, this clearly isn't the case with the VQ. Losing flying won't make the lich better. Losing immortality won't make her less useful than the ghost king.

That's the problem with your favorite chassis Norfleet. She's too cheap for what she does. Immortality, Earthrealness, Flying, Life drain, Cold resistance, poison resistance, fear, regeneration, stealth. Take ANY of that away and she's still a steal at 110 points... and that my friend is the problem, not the inability of players to kill her on turn 40.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I really really think the VQ needs to cost more and have a way higher path cost.

I was going to put a bunch of comparisons here, but you guys probably know what everything is anyways. Just ask yourselves which you *really* fear more: A father of serpents, a Titan, or a Cyclops (which all cost *more* than a VQ, in case you forget) or.. a VQ. Or, just open up the Lich and compare it to the VQ, which costs the same. No stealth, no etherealness, no flight, no regeneration, no free ethereal flying commander killing hippies. Oh yeah, you get -2 lesser fear instead of -4. Whee.

The fact that a VQ is killable does not make it balanced or reasonably priced. I have played using nearly all pretenders, and the VQ is definately the strongest I have found. Yes, there are ways to kill them in MP (the Ai is horrid at it) but they are still way tougher than their cost would show. I say 175 for the chassis, 60 path cost. All those goofy plans to balance it by changing it around seem kind of pointless.

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

[ May 03, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Slygar ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, a VQ is superior in many respects to a GK... the main one being Immortality.

However, it wasn't really my intention to debate the merits of a Ghost King vs. a Vampire Queen... I mainly meant that they are similar in that with minimal research/forging they both can slice right through independents with nary a scratch.... and with more research/forging (ie Phoenix Pyre/Soul Vortex + Elemental Armor) they are dominant SC's in the late game who have few weaknesses.

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Master Lich is 20 points cheaper and has THREE misc slots. He's no Vampire Queen, but he's my favorite pretender.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't really argue with that.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

I think some people in the thread are missing the point.

First of all, taking ethereal away won't do *anything*. The canonical VQ has astral (4-6)

The only clearly effective thing to do is create a new counter to immortality.

Item or rule change? Whatever.

But under the current conditions VQ's are quite seriously broken, particularly for Ermor, who can make a ...

killer flying no melee fatigue AND life draining immortal regenerating (ALL while NAKED!!) SC=norisk and nofear

The lack of risk is the problem, since it creates an artificially munchkinish scenario, something games with deep balance (like this one) would tend to abhor.

Perhaps have the "immortal" god require a delay of three turns, or even a (40 priest level)callback as normal, but no path loss if death was in god's dom?

Still technically abusable, but less so.


Rabe the Van Helsing Intern

[ May 03, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: rabelais ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm... yeah I guess you don't really have to fear Mind Duel as much when you're immortal. Anything that had an Astral high enough to kill it reliably would be a huge loss if you got a unlucky roll. And of course the VQ just comes back next turn.

Didn't really occur to me that immortality is a perfect work around to the vulnerability that's supposed to be inherent in Astral magic.

Though a high Astal VQ, only seems to be "uber" for Ermor... since they have a gajillion(roughly) points to spend on their pretender.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

A ghost king who gets a crossbow bolt in each eye on turn 4 will be much less of a danger compared to a vq in that situation.

Raising new path cost to 80 like the great mother, medusa, phoenix, dragons would not be out of line. It is a loss of 2-3 scales for many builds, and might be enough of a balance.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: mivayan ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Someone else mentioned how other SC pretenders wind up having to retire to the laboratory after a while, while the VQ doesn't.

Why does immortality heal all wounds? I thought that was what recuperation was for. I mean - you come back from the dead instantly, AND you heal wounds?

Mythology, folk tales, all those have lots of instances of beings obtaining immortality. And finding out that immortality is a curse - living forever after a hand is crushed, an eye is lost, reduced to a suffering heap of flesh that only wishes it could die.

If the VQ and other immortals had to obtain the Chalice, the high level Nature spell, or whatnot, they might not be so unbalanced. A blind crippled armless VQ isn't so scary, now is it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(And this highlights another thing that is basically ... dubious, that way that most pretenders wind up cripples. C'mon! They're on the verge of godhood!)

Either immortality shouldn't heal wounds, or all pretenders should have a slow form of recuperation.

Edit : And of all the immortals, I'd say the VQ was still the most broken - all others have some fairly heavy weaknesses. The bog mummy and the lichs have vulnerability to fire, the Phoenix is so fragile and so limitted in item slots / melee. By contrast, the VQ has no vulnerabilities (even though vampires were commonly vulnerable to sunlight, silver, running water, and yes, fire.

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not?

[ May 03, 2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.

Also, there should be a chance that you could randomly get your own design, so if you go for a very mediocre pretender (not quite bad enough for people to stick it to you), you still have to worry about getting stuck with it.

As far as creatively bad pretender designs, my pick would be for something like an immobile "rainbow" oracle or blood fountain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you would, Norfleet. Not after the first time you got feeble minded, or got some other seriously debilitating wounds (mute, blind) and realized that hey! Those inflictions aren't going away like they used to! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I almost think you'd start playing Carrion Woods with a Carrion Dragon instead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not? [/quote]

One is a Dracolich.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One is a Dracolich. [/quote]

Eh... There's already a Dracolich showing up, for 50 points. A "real" Bog Mummy for 110. And a "pseudo" Bog Mummy for 100. Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

A fairly radical idea, not directly related to the Vampire Queen but would solve the issue of it being nearly impossible to kill.

What is it was not possible to have total immunity to two opposing elements. If you are immune to fire than the best you could do is 50% cold immunity, etc.

I don't know what other elemental forces directly oppose each other but they could work in a similar way.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Curious about that myself, since the two elemental staves are supposed to give partial resistance to each of the elements used in forging it. But I've never seen or heard of "Earth Resistance".

And I agree - right now it's way too easy to get elemental immunities. Seems like it'd be better if resistances went in 25 / 50 / 75 increments, and _only_ a few artifacts granted full immunity.

[ May 03, 2004, 23:08: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think ANYONE has a problem with the Ghost King. It's a very strong pretender base, one of the best in fact. However, anyone can see that a GK is inferior in almost every respect to a VQ, yet you would choose it over any other SC chassis.

I have to ask though... what would you put in that extra misc slot... a pendant of immortality? C'mon man. Give me a break.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The dracolich isn't immortal, so it's priced at the same rate as the other dragons.

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because at the moment, the GK lives in the shadow of the VQ. It actually has many positive traits, and is in some ways superior to the VQ: If you're not interested in actually LOSING, the GK's higher defense value will keep him alive where the VQ would probably bite the dust. Sure, biting the dust is merely an irritation for a VQ, but you're still losing the battle. Immortality can't help you there, if you're losing province after province, and having your dominion replaced by enemy dominion.

The whining will surely start anew if the current crop of whiners has their way and gets a significant nerf to the VQ, when souped-up GKs start getting crammed down people's throats. The fact of the matter is that if you want a pretender tailored specifically for the express purpose of asswhailing, not for any secondary objective like blessing, or filling gaps in national magics, you're going to pick a chassis that supports this, and it's going to dispense a lot of indiscriminate justice....because that's what you paid for it to do!

Re: Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um... norfleet, with all due respect, this is a bunch of hooey.

You do not need to give the VQ items to avoid boobytraps, because she drops everything when she dies. (at no penalty to paths) Even cursed, horror marked and afflicted she can be a uber-SC with no risk. Bully for recuperation! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Scales are nigh irrelevant, except for magic and luck.

Dominion dependent HP's are bugged, and in my experience, very rarely do you avoid a bonus, unless you are jumping from negative dominion to negative dominion (something you explicitly would not do with this strat) so regen is more useful than the chassis would indicate.

The life drain sometimes works even with through items(again bugged?), and since she needn't fear curses, you would in any case be foolish to divest yourself of the ability.

The path cost difference between 20 and 40 is immaterial, since the GK cannot rival the VQ as a naked SC. It may be that any immortal chassis is abusable, which is why I recommended changes in immortality, not the VQ per se.

Ermor has the points to be munchkinish here is all that matters.

Hell they might still be able to build a munchkin SC if the path cost were 80 for the VQ ...though someone would have to run the numbers. (I'm sure you have) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It is BROKEN for ermor. I know you are fond of it, but come on.

If you can build a (near or absolutely) naked immortal SC (esp with native high dominion), and get enough income from luck/overtaxing to protect your temples... there is no reasonable strategy that will do much more than slow you down.

Meanwhile ermor can afford to be patient as magic-3 gives them excellent research.

It has been demonstrated (by you) that this is quite a plausible scenario, and something therefore needs to be changed.

Basically AFAIKT if a person can attack ALL your castles with enough strength to get the walls down in simul, then they could threaten you.

This is unlikely to be the case, as you know.

Even if you subject to a huge pile-on (as you should be) it would have to be far more coordinated than most I've seen to have an effect.

Meanwhile whoever is *trying* fruitlessly to stop you is losing developmental ground to other nations and will eventually get cannibalized.

Rinse and Repeat and. Victory is nigh inevitable, if you are patient.

If there is a legitimate counter to the ermor-naked-VQ SC... with castles to protect omnipresent temples, I'd love to hear it.

I'm a fairly clever fellow, and I can't find one that is plausible with an even remotely level playing field.

Ironically, one might stop you temporarily with a non-drainable horde, but as you are ermor, the difficultly in acquiring such is ...formidable.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All you need is immortal naked SC viability, the path boost above the minimum munchkin design is unnecessary and beside the point. The synergy between immortality and dominion for ermor (who recuits troops independent of scales) is simply too great.

As I said, you should be proud you found a way to minimax break the game, but that doesn't mean it should be permitted indefinitely.


Rabe the Rebutter

[ May 03, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: rabelais ]