SCs other than the vq
 

A Vampire queen scripted to "quickness, ironskin, mistform, attack rearmost" costs 302 points and is very strong against indeps.

One reason this is popular could be a lack of other ideas for strong sc pretenders. So, lets hear some ideas, maybe carrion dragons, medusa or wyrms can be great early on too?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Well a simple man white bull with 5-6 level of nature casting regen/protection is cheap too... and will eat away a lot of indies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I dont think the main trouble is that VQ is too good against indies, nearly anyone can design a cheap Thug that could crush easily indies... problem is that VQ can pretty badly crush anyone without taking risk of dying...

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Bull rarely dies and is recuperating.

Other pretenders might get afflictions. Best avoid them altogether http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I suppose it is cowards who choose the VQ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Carrion Dragon is simply amazing. Its dragon form has 200 hit points, great attacks, Fear 10+, and heals its wounds. Only significant problem in attacking indies is running into the wrong spell casters, or not being set to melee attack and exhausting itself casting weak attack spells.

But wait, it gets better! It also has a Carrion Lord form - 57 HPs, and a full assortment of equipment slots! Still immune to poison, still 0 endurance for melee attacks, regardless of what armor you put on it! And, this week only, buy the Carrion Dragon chassis for just 50 points, that's right, 50 points, and we'll throw in a dose of Stealth for the Carrion Lord form, and Sleep Vines too!

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Lots of pretenders make good SCs or Thugs, but of them only the VQ is immortal. It is a huge advantage compared to any other pretender.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Phoenix. Lich with winged boots.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Phoenix cant be used reliably as SC, the base hit points is too low.


edit: I think IW is not putting enough emphasize on how exploit-prone are some of the tougher pretenders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 04, 2004, 16:24: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the other hand you are doing a good job of emphasizing all sorts of things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Phoenix is splendid. 1 evoc (fire darts) is all you need. Reliability comes from immortality rather than HP.

Apart from VQ, which pretenders can be exploited?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He's great to soften the opposition a bit (or a lot) though. Cloud Trapeze in with the Phoenix, do as much havoc as you can, move an army in the same turn to collect the spoils while the Phoenix is back home, rinse & repeat.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

The Phoenix has many problems. Poor slots, narrow or expensive paths. Fire Darts does not a SC make. I'm not saying it isn't good, only not anywhere near the VQ.

A Lich costs the same as a VQ, but lacks most of her abilities.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

yah, none of these other immortals stack up to the VQ, who is so extremely exploitable its a joke,and, along w/ the combo strategy of clamming and castling, actually a broken element in the game.

There are lots of fun SCs, but they're normal run of the mill. The GK is perhaps a bit strong due to it's cheap paths, and the Allfather is a monster.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can cloud trapeze into the target province on the same turn you have an army scheduled to move in: Cast something fun, like Wrathful Sky. Observe carnage. Move in to mop-up with regular troops when the Bird Boy bites it.

The Phoenix's advantage is that he can affordably purchase either a Fire or Air-9 bless, both of which are useful blessings as well as potent paths for battle magic (unless you're trying to use fire against Abysia), and his immortality allows him to be used as a kamikaze fighter. The VQ's immortality is a safety net: The Phoenix's immortality is a modus operandi: If you're not dying a lot, you're probably missing the point. Wrathful Sky the crap out of things, then blow up on them with Phoenix Pyre.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The lack of item slots is not that big a drawback on immortal combat pretenders, if you put a heap of items on an immortal you are 'compromising' its expendability, especially the flying ones which can quickly get back to the front if slain.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Select a vampire queen and put hundreds of points into her for use as a defensive force. Say death 3, air 4, fire 2, earth 2/3, water 2. Make sure to give her a full set of equipment so that she can only be killed by other SC's, and is immune to almost all magic. If your opponents start to use spells that can actually affect her such as stellar cascades, solar rays, dust to dust, and wither bones, then put 20-30 cannon fodder troops in front of her. Once your opponent's scripts wear out without targeting her they will switch to paralyze and raise skeletons, neither of which are going to kill her. Wait for your opponent's forces to rout since you won't.

Build a 300 gold castle and temple in every single province. Use the VQ to keep people from being able to invade. Push your dominion with temples while building clams from the income of previous clams. That about sums it up.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

??? For real ???

That's bizzare!

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Select a vampire queen and put hundreds of points into her for use as a defensive force. Say death 3, air 4, fire 2, earth 2/3, water 2. Make sure to give her a full set of equipment so that she can only be killed by other SC's, and is immune to almost all magic. If your opponents start to use spells that can actually affect her such as stellar cascades, solar rays, dust to dust, and wither bones, then put 20-30 cannon fodder troops in front of her. Once your opponent's scripts wear out without targeting her they will switch to paralyze and raise skeletons, neither of which are going to kill her. Wait for your opponent's forces to rout since you won't.

Build a 300 gold castle and temple in every single province. Use the VQ to keep people from being able to invade. Push your dominion with temples while building clams from the income of previous clams. That about sums it up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He hit the nail on the head! I am in the middle of a game right now with this exact strategy being played by CatQuiet against me. I can stop his armies with my priests but invasion is impossible and in time I will be defeated...no doubt. Would you like the file?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pah. Of course you're losing. You're Ulm playing against SG Ermor, and you apparently aren't interested in diversifying beyond your basic priests and armies. Go figure: Ulm is naturally weak against Ermor, and rather than trying to solve the problem, you'd rather complain about it on the forums. This is not a terribly productive attitude.

His VQ can be in ONE place at a time. If you hit him in more places than he can repel you from with his VQ, he'll lose castle after castle. If you insist on hamhandedly trudging with a single army and waving in front of his face until he kills it, no wonder you lose. Even if he respawns instantly back in his capitol because you were too lazy to roll back his dominion, he has STILL lost the engagement. All YOU have to do is keep your own losses under control and consolidate your own holdings in the same way.

Alternatively, just jack his capitol. Or do I have to do *EVERYTHING* for you?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pah. Of course you're losing. You're Ulm playing against SG Ermor, and you apparently aren't interested in diversifying beyond your basic priests and armies. Go figure: Ulm is naturally weak against Ermor, and rather than trying to solve the problem, you'd rather complain about it on the forums. This is not a terribly productive attitude.

His VQ can be in ONE place at a time. If you hit him in more places than he can repel you from with his VQ, he'll lose castle after castle. If you insist on hamhandedly trudging with a single army and waving in front of his face until he kills it, no wonder you lose. Even if he respawns instantly back in his capitol because you were too lazy to roll back his dominion, he has STILL lost the engagement. All YOU have to do is keep your own losses under control and consolidate your own holdings in the same way.

Alternatively, just jack his capitol. Or do I have to do *EVERYTHING* for you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet - I will not defend my strategy. I will be the first to admit I played poorly and was not ready for Ermor SG but since you are not paying attention Abysia is also attacking me so the only thing I can really do is defend to my best abiiliy. If only I could be as great as the great Norfleet ....sigh

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

Bold text originally posted by Graeme Dice:
If your opponents start to use spells that can actually affect her such as stellar cascades, solar rays, dust to dust, and wither bones, then put 20-30 cannon fodder troops in front of her. Once your opponent's scripts wear out without targeting her they will switch to paralyze and raise skeletons, neither of which are going to kill her.

I didn't think Stellar Cascades worked on those with 0 enc?

In any event, IMHO you underestimate the power of Dust to Dust and Wither Bones. Wither Bones in particular will make short work of 20-30 undead fodder.

Moreover, you are counting on opponents not casting effective spells after their scripts run out, which IMHO is not reliable.

On top of this it's fairly easy to turn something like a Gifted Crusher or Gargoyle (let alone another Pretender) into something that can slay a VQ.

Build a 300 gold castle and temple in every single province. Use the VQ to keep people from being able to invade. Push your dominion with temples while building clams from the income of previous clams. That about sums it up.

IMHO this is not sufficient to magically keep people from invading.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:46: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, you've been complaining that it's due to the overpowered Vampire Queen, not your poor play.

If -- as you claim -- you played poorly, perhaps this is the cause of your defeat, instead of the dread power of the Vampire Queen?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Phoenix is splendid. 1 evoc (fire darts) is all you need. Reliability comes from immortality rather than HP.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this truly so effective? The odds of failling to take provinces seems too high to me, even if you don't die. Moreover, the investment necessary for the effect is great.

There are some nice tricks that actually take advantage of immortality later in the game, e.g. Cloud Trapezing hurting your foes then dying so you can immediately Cloud Trapeze again, or Phoenix Pyre. But these aren't much help during expansion, and in any event the inability to use items IMHO becomes a larger and larger liability as the game goes on.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, you've been complaining that it's due to the overpowered Vampire Queen, not your poor play.

If -- as you claim -- you played poorly, perhaps this is the cause of your defeat, instead of the dread power of the Vampire Queen? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I have not been defeated yet, I will admit that my possible defeat is my fault alone. How does that prove the VQ is unbalanced?????? Wow I give up!!! Just some final advice to an old beta tester to another beta tester. As a beta tester instead of jumping on one side you need to open your mind up and test out possible balance problems. If you have done this already and it is the conclusion of the betas and devs there is no problem then I will except it. We only wish to bring this possible unbalancing to your attention. I am tired of this and I never get into flame wars like this so I apoligize for anything I have said and I will no longer discuss this.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably more fun than effective. Horrible scales, but that doesn't matter much. I have one positive scale (luck +1). Most provinces are waste anyway. Dom 10 combined with restless worshippers and abysian blood sacrifice makes the dominion spread across enemy lands for my Phoenix to conquer. I have never tried this before, but it is much fun. Unfortunately it's the world map and everyone has two starting locations. It is difficult to dom-slay pretenders half across the world without help.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates. As well, I would think that certain unbalanced strats would be negated but only by the fact that beta-testers are consistently and coherently able to pursue advanced strategies and tactics. The game might still be unbalanced for the vast majority of players even if a group of skilled beta-testers is able to get around an inbalance.

However, as far as the VQ is concerned, and much like the previous discussions on clams (and one would expect the same w/ a discussion on castling), too many people seem to think they know what they are talking about when they obviously do not. The problem is not clams as they occurred in that game you played w/ your brother yesterday, or the VQ you designed w/ 8 blood playing vanheim; the problem is in the extreme variants that can be created.

The canonical VQ uber-pretender is Norfleet's philinnon. She has the same name every game since Norfleet has no need to ever redesign her. She starts off w/ 400 pts in paths, above the 110 pt cost for the chassis. This is easy to afford w/ Ermor, though actually he hasn't had much difficulty using her w/ Caelum or Mictlan either.

The use of castles makes his territory almost invulnerable in the early/mid game. Frankly, I'm not sure i've ever seen him lose a castle as Ermor: the problem being, that once one has a sufficiently strong force to perhaps deal w/ his VQ (in your dreams, at least), he will have gateway and the like, so not only does your besieging army have to be prepared to take out an uber VQ, it must also be equally prepared to take out a huge magically tricked-out conventional force, and/or a large body of summons. As he sees fit, since you have to wait around for the turn to break down the walls.

By this time, clamming has probably led to chain casting of wishes. Chain casting them by turn 40 would seem to be quite possible. "magic power"X4 or 5, + "power" i believe. then start summoning more vampire queens. rinse, repeat.

As well, you are having to deal w/ serious dominion push, since all his territories have the castle/temple combo. good luck w/ that. In one game, as r'lyeh, he had at least 23+ castles by turn 21 or so. that's not unusual.

catquiet may be copying these undoubtably effective tactics, i'm not sure, since the only game i've played w/ him he had a phoenix.

Weeks ago when I was feeling frustrated by this combo tactic the only response I got from veterans (Zen) was that I must be a total noob. No doubt I was (and am), but that he was unable to give concrete counters was pretty telling.

Now, at least a number of people have had real experience of this tactic. Graeme knows it intimately, and Rabelais is experiencing his first joyous encounter.

How does one conquer ermorian castles defended by an uber VQ? other than by creating a vast world-wide alliance w/ a dozen committed armies.

(and even then...)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">sorry? how? can you be a bit less than completely vague? how are you conquering his castles? by "magic"? lol

[ May 04, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The VQ is not the ultimate warrior for SC vs. SC combat: The VQ excels primarily in the destruction of enemy troops, preferrably living: Against non-living, particularly cold immune troops, the VQ's ability to kill is hampered by her generally mediocre strength and attack values: Combat will expire before she can even kill two dozen Jot woodsmen with N9 bless, or about a hundred ghouls.

Ermorian castles are tougher nuts to crack, but the great expense of Ermorian castles does slightly impede consolidation speed due to their longer construction times and greater cost, combined with Ermor's lack of income, even after accounting for not having to pay upkeep or buy troops any kind. This is one reason why Rabe has a larger empire than I do.

However, all you have to do is strike at an Ermorian castle with sufficient force to begin damaging the gates. Cast Crumble, and you'll have an instant breach, if you felt your regular army was not enough to breach. Do this in more than one place, and the defender will be forced to choose which province receives the aid of his pretender.

Now second-guess him: Which one do you think he'll choose to defend, based on his present location, dominion, and strategic overview.

Don't storm that castle, or withdraw completely. If the VQ teleports in, it's now stuck in that castle, and must decide whether to immediately teleport to the next hotspot, or attempt to sally and wipe out the attackers alone: Since friendly movement occurs first, if you withdraw, his VQ will encounter no resistance and have fruitlessly wasted two turns.

What can you do in two turns? Siege and storm a castle elsewhere. Congratulations. You've just cost him a castle while losing next to nothing. Wasn't that so nice of him to build you a castle to protect your new temple with?

Sooner or later, you'll be able to force your way to the capitol. He *WILL* defend that. Be sure you have a plan to kill his pretender there. Now that you have the capitol occupied....bye-bye immortality.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure this isn't what's happening to YOU? I seem to notice that you've played many of your games against, well, me. In fact, you cite my own VQ as the canonical example. Are you sure it is not YOU who needs to get out more?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I've done several redesigns, but I've kept the name. Why? Because I'm terrible at names. Have you seen how I name my mages? So once I like the name, I keep it.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it will, but then your mages won't cast it on her because your own skeletons are also in the area of effect. The same thing happens with dust to dust I've found.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've had 10 astral 2 mages cast paralyze for a dozen turns in a row instead of casting solar rays.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It usually is till around turn 30, and if you can keep people out till turn 40 or 50, your level 9 spells start to show up.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">given the large number of public games around here that you play in, it would be rather difficult to avoid you.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:51: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is clearly the fault of the stupid spellcasting AI (which fails to consider odds of success when picking a spell, and does not sufficiently prioritize killing things), and the damnable 5-spell script limit, which in combination with the above, basically assures that most mages will not do anything intelligent past either the 3rd, or 5th, turn of combat.

I think we are all in agreement on the above issues.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you acknowledge that I play often, generally with the same strategy, and thus have had the opportunity to hone it specifically, and that my effectiveness may be due more to my practice and experience, compared to your relative lack thereof, rather than the fact that VQs and clams are completely and utterly broken, as demonstrated by the regular failures of my imitators to triumph by this means even when I do not play the VQ?

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wish you people would try to stick to your argument. When someone details a strategy that works to kill them that is easily implemented by 75% of the nations, suddenly the argument is changed "Well what do you do if they have alot of Dominion and build castles, huh? I obviously can't stop that either", then if that is answered it's "Well what do you do if they pour 600 astrals by wishing in to them, eh? I obviously can't stop that either".

You have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate. The very first of which is to define overpowered. It is Powerful and it does fill a niche and it is being effectively used by at least 1, if not more people. But since when is that overpowered? The same can be said for any number of different features in the game.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

No.

The strat is abusive and broken. That you are so wedded to it indicates merely something concerning your psychology.

That people can use VQ's ineffectively is trivially true, and quite irrelevant.

Frankly, the game would be much better if VQs and clams were simply disposed of, like trash.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you consider what you just said to be opinionated? obnoxious? offensive? I just thought Id ask in case things went further in that direction. I wouldnt want you to be unaware of the point where things went wrong.

The best-testing group has a wide variety of testers. Mass swarmers, formula fiends, nitpickys (for spelling and little stat errors), game-killer testers, and wasted-stuff boosters. Besides the point of 3 different language Groups, and 5 operating systems.

Besides all that, the devs are quite active and willing to listen to this group here (some have already answered in this thread in case you werent aware).

Please, if you fail to convince the majority how correct you are, then rant against them softly.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wish you people would try to stick to your argument. When someone details a strategy that works to kill them that is easily implemented by 75% of the nations, suddenly the argument is changed "Well what do you do if they have alot of Dominion and build castles, huh? I obviously can't stop that either", then if that is answered it's "Well what do you do if they pour 600 astrals by wishing in to them, eh? I obviously can't stop that either".

You have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate. The very first of which is to define overpowered. It is Powerful and it does fill a niche and it is being effectively used by at least 1, if not more people. But since when is that overpowered? The same can be said for any number of different features in the game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't aware that I was a card-carrying member of "you people". The strat being discussed, and discussed implicitly for weeks, is precisely the combo of VQ (best w/ ermor), clams, and castling. I know what strat i'm talking about.

What counter strat have you layed out for dealing w/ the Norfleet combo? that's all I care about, since that's pretty well all I've been playing against for the past few weeks. How did you take out his ermorian castles? I mean, I'm sure you must have some experience w/ it...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry? I believe the only time I have made an argument is in my prior post in this thread. how is that repeatedly? the only "repetition" is in your ducking the problem and being unable to lay out a reasonable and viable counter-strat to the (usually ermorian) uber-VQ/endless castles/wish clamming strat. And, hell, even if a counter strat can be detailed, this does not logically entail that there is a balance.

Again, how was it that you personally dealt w/ norfleet's strat? specifically.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you consider what you just said to be opinionated? obnoxious? offensive? I just thought Id ask in case things went further in that direction. I wouldnt want you to be unaware of the point where things went wrong.

The best-testing group has a wide variety of testers. Mass swarmers, formula fiends, nitpickys (for spelling and little stat errors), game-killer testers, and wasted-stuff boosters. Besides the point of 3 different language Groups, and 5 operating systems.

Besides all that, the devs are quite active and willing to listen to this group here (some have already answered in this thread in case you werent aware).

Please, if you fail to convince the majority how correct you are, then rant against them softly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm only referring to those beta-testers who have responded to this issue in these Boards. i have no way of judging any of the others, other than by the fact that this strat, which has been around for, what, a couple months, seems to be news to Kristoffer O. How could this be if the beta-testers had been testing this as well?

Again, as any given random nation, how was it that I'm supposed to invade these ermorian castles? oh, yes, by using many VQ invulnerable armies and then guessing which is the best castle to invade...

(since, if your armies aren't immune to the VQ... hahaha)

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As always, I think the problem is not really with the VQ so much as it is with the elemental armour. Get rid of the immunity it provides, and suddenly most mages would at least be able to damage her.

The castle and temple strategy can definetly be dealt with as well, it just takes careful planning. I almost managed it in a game as Vanheim, but the AI for my pretender killed himself with a shockwave rather than casting a useful spell.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I forced myself to play against the same strategy/nation I would find the weaknesses in it. Would you like me to detail them, because Norfleet did fairly well. If you don't factor into the mix his attempts to counter what you will try to do, try these:

Dominion options: Preaching, Stealth Preaching, Marignon FoF, Cerimonial Faith, Restless Worshippers, Skeptics Starting with a Strong Punishing Dominion and placement of Temples.

Castle options: Multi-pronged attacks, Scouts+Gate Cleavers, Crumble, Ghouls/reanimators/Flyers, Stealth Armies attacking Castle.

VQ options: Really too many to list, you've said yourself that you know how to kill them, it's only the factor of them coming back for more the next turn, yes? If you need more ideas, I can list a few if you give me the nation you use.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

well, the dominion doesn't tend to be a problem for me, since I spend a lot of effort preparing for his dominion swamp.

however, none of your castle dealing strats seem especially useful, or presuppose that I have a much greater number of armies than he does. especially since none of the forces you mention seem capable of dealing w/ a real VQ, or even some hastily gatewayed in national troops

and killing a VQ isn't so much a problem, as that all of your armies need the capability if they try to invade. and, at best, you do nothing to her.

Norfleet has played probably dozens of games around here. I'm sure you must have encountered him. What specifically did you do to conquer his castles?

[ May 04, 2004, 22:26: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the strategy has been around and Norfleet has been doing well with it, but how many games win by doing that exact same thing in the exact same fashion? Most games Last at least a month, so if it's been around a month and it's 'so unbalanced I must pitch a fit' this it the point and time where it might be tested or not. The simple fact that KO didn't know about it could mean any variety of things, not the least of which is his desire to play with hammeringly bad scales and roleplayed pretenders.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you should try them before you talk. Castling every province has been around before Norfleet beat you with it. But maybe casual rejection of ideas is why you don't think them useful.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">However, all you have to do is strike at an Ermorian castle with sufficient force to begin damaging the gates. Cast Crumble, and you'll have an instant breach, if you felt your regular army was not enough to breach.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was under this distinct impression that the castle destroying/rebuilding spells were not working properly,... is this old data, or am I more generally confused?

I'm not sure, btw, that an naked immortal (i.e.risk free) pretender design that requires multiple simultaneous successful castle assaults to counter is ... quite balanced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Shall I repost the note I left in the other thread detailing the absurdity of your defense of the VQ castling strat, ...

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...583;p=1#000050

or can we just concede the extremity of the situation is broken and needs to be looked at... with care that immortality isn't abusable in a different chassis.

Rabe

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've only played with him once and I never needed to conquer his castles. When I was around to play with him the few times I had time he was still clutching to his 'only World Map' preference.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

my only point about K.O. not knowing about it, is that this issue could not have been too pressing for the beta-testers, if they were even testing this strat.

Really, Norfleet is the best one to demonstrate its power. I suggest that concerned parties inquire of Graeme about how it works, and how "easy" it is to counter. I know Truper was unable to. I can do fight it, but only because all my nation designs are made w/ that in mind. I think I've only heard of Norf losing one game, and he wasn't playing Ermor in that.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you should try them before you talk. Castling every province has been around before Norfleet beat you with it. But maybe casual rejection of ideas is why you don't think them useful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol more insults. I guess that stands in for actual experience. When I was a complete noob I was up against norfleet. All you gave me then were insults as well.

now, of course, a group of skilled players could implicitly begin a game w/ an anti-norfleet alliance, and should be able to easily bring him down. That's not really indicative of balance.

[ May 04, 2004, 22:38: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

How about this. Ban VQ's for another month and have Norfleet play Ermor with just a different pretender. You don't change any of your strategies or try anything new, and if he suddenly loses a disproportionate amount of his games, then you can say with every validity that it's the VQ that is the determining factor.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe if you could site another player who has done it every time and won every time, I would have a better time seeing your point of view. But since it is the same person every time and I haven't heard "I play exactly like Norfleet and I win every game I play" I think there is something missing as far as your experience.

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

the combined strat is broken. r'lyeh works very well even though it doesn't have access to the VQ (the GK instead) because it is so nicely defensible and capable of getting the clam strat up and running.

however, that was before the paralysis bug was fixed, so I'm not sure norfleet would want to play them now.

And norfleet certainly can win w/ other pretenders. he knows a lot of tricks and a lot about the game - ie. he would be very good even if he did not use these abuses.

As such, that he would still win doesn't logically imply that the VQ isn't broken... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">please. name me a good player who has managed to deal w/ his strat and does not think it is broken. just one.

[ May 04, 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you challenging me? I'll still play them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ignoring the loaded term of "abuses", which cannot be proven, I've won games where I have not had the option of, or deliberately chose not to use, a VQ.

Admittedly, I *DO* have a certain stylistic preference that the VQ fits well into, but it is because of the fit that I choose it, not the other way around, and it is not the only shoe that fits: My preferences were that way well before Dom2 existed. However, if shoe fits, wear it.

[ May 04, 2004, 22:48: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol

like I said, you'ld still do well, and be a ***** to beat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, if we Banned clams and only allowed you castles in half your territories...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SCs other than the vq
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, so he is a good player and has won with other pretenders? I thought he only used the same thing every time, that was your point I believe.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice CYA there. No it does not mean they are not broken, but it puts the bias on the skill of the player and not the use of the VQ. All it says is that a good player can win consistantly without using only one design. If he were to do so, I think you'd see alot less of an uproar about it and it wouldn't be so pronounced for those who play him time and time again facing the exact same strategy/pretender.

I believe it's been said before and I'll say it again, as if people suddenly forget. The VQ might need to be adjusted in cost/nations, if only to limit the popularity not the potency of the VQ. Anything a VQ can do, any other pretender with the exception of the physically weak ones, can as well. So if they can do the exact same thing under the same circumstances, why is the VQ singled out? Because it's easier?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Graeme. He may personally feel that it should be adjusted, but broken? He'll have to answer that for himself. Earlier in this thread he mentioned he almost won with Vanheim except for the bad luck of his AF casting Shockwave. If he was previously unable to handle it and is now progressing to the point he could, it means to me he is strategizing his way to beat Norfleet's finely honed strategy.

[ May 04, 2004, 22:54: Message edited by: Zen ]