Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

I like this game. I usually play single, thus I have some major problems with the AI.

1. The AI is massing weak troops. Why? I see hella lot of light infantry and cheap troops. Pointless, they are toast.
2. The AI is making weird strategic decisions. It is moving around with strong commanders without a point, and without a decent army.
3. The AI is not equipping its heroes properly, sometimes not at all.
4. The AI is not protecting its heroes/commanders.
5. The AI isnt using the mid/late game spells very well.
6. The AI wont summon too many "heavyweight monsters". -> I wonder what the heck the AI is doing with its magic income.
7. The AI's battlefield tactics is kinda laughable as well.
8. The AI isnt building forts, just very rarely. Maybe this is causing our next problem, that the AI is making LI mostly?

I patched the game to 2.11 of course, before you ask.
I dont wanna be rude, but all of these should be fixed with the next patch.

P.

[ May 09, 2004, 12:48: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You probably shouldn't hold your breath. AI is a notoriously difficult area, and the nature of Dominions makes it a very difficult game to write an AI for (basically, it's got a very large amount of different inter-releated factors which make for a much larger search-space than most comparable games.)

You might see incremental improvements to the AI, but you're not going to see the AI "fixed" in a patch. The issue is simply so complicated that to do make any huge improvements would likely take far too much work to be worthwhile.

I suggest you try a few multiplayer games instead. The human mind might not be the best computer that can be made, but it's the only one we can build with unskilled labour.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Yes I do play multi, but you know, it takes too much time to play multi games in these type of games.
[Especially in this, in mid or late game]

I think that it is not impossible to script a good AI, in fact I am sure that all of these mentioned weaknesses can be fixed...and hopefully they will be.

P.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course they can be fixed, it's just going cost more than it's worth. Basically, what you'd end up with is a huge expert system, probably near the size of the game itself.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.


P.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you severely underestimate the effort and work that goes into making a good AI - particularly for something as complex as Dominions. Besides, the AI in Dominion isn't really any worse than the average for strategic games (in my opinion it's surprisingly good, considering Illwinter's position). Let's face it - even for games that are created by the big hitters, the AIs are generally weak.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Yes you are right in some points, there are a few games with a decent AI, most of them are weak.
However I dont think that it is wise to bring up things like that. Just because the majority of the strategy games have a mediocre/weak AI, why should Doms II. have a weak AI as well?
The game costs 50, which is hella lot in the gaming market, so the devs must work for their money. Lot of months have passed now since the game release, and the AI is still bad.
We had patches they were good and nice, but this problem is not solved still. I almost see no changes in the AI. Not good.....not good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I guess you all understand my point.
As I said I play multi as well, but I like the singleplayer too, however the quality of this AI rendering the SP part...er..not so fun.
I really hope that the devs will do something about this, because time is passing, and nothing happened yet.

[ May 08, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Well..wow.wow.wow...
This was being discussed months ago, it was my topic!!

Look at here! ->
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;t=000191;p=20

Anyways I totally agree with proteus.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because good AIs are very, very difficult to make. As an educated guess, I'd say that to make a good AI for Dominions 2, would require at least 80% of the effort that's already gone into making the whole game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The game is also a niche product from a tiny, half hobby-driven development team. There are limits to how much you can expect from them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I said earlier, it's difficult to make a good AI, so you can't expect to see any huge changes to the AI done in patches. We're talking about several man-months worth of work here (at the very least), and remember that Illwinter is a part-time buisness.

[ May 08, 2004, 20:03: Message edited by: Leif_- ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im real sorry if anyone feels they arent getting their money worth. I used to hear the same thing about Master of Magic because it wasnt multiplayer. Or GalCiv (the #1 AI game by the way) because it wasnt multi-platform. Now we have Illwinter's PBEM multiplayer game because the AI isnt good enough for decent solo play. Maybe the game description needs touched up.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Hello MStavros. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I find it rather amusing that you try to influence us with split personalities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hopefully there will be improvements in the AI, but as before I can't give you any guarantees.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt this supposed to be a singleplayer - multiplayer game, just like many others?
If your argument would be valid, why is there singleplayer at all? I mean if the developers dont care about the singleplayer part, they should totally drop it for dominions 3, OR try to fix the singleplayer bugs/weaknesses.

Than they wont see Posts like this..yes the
game wont sell that good, but at least I wont spend my money than. What do you think?

Yes I feel cheated for my money sorta. The game is great, but its like a half game for me.
Good mp, crap sp.
For 25$ I wouldnt say a word, but for 50, I think the devs should try to do their best!

[ May 08, 2004, 21:00: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes we do hope as well. I guess you dont really care about it as I see. Sad.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

From the Dominions II. features page:

"Epic turn-based fantasy gameplay. Up to seventeen people can play at once thanks to the simultaneous turn structure. For those who would rather play solo the computer opponents put up fierce competition for those 3 AM gaming sessions"

So Mr. Parker?

I just checked the downloads section as well, and all of the fixes/improvements of the patches.

I havent found a singe improvement in the AI, maybe the spellcasting AI, but thats nothing.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

There was a mention of the spellcasting AI being improved, but by and large, I think that Illwinter considers the SP strategic AI a secondary concern at best, since even the primary game blurb tends to indicate the game is mainly multiplayer, with single player as a sort of afterthought/training mode.

Writing AI is hard! Computers are inherently stupid, and excel only at doing dumb things quickly. It's hard to make a computer do smart things, except by having it do many dumb things and pick the Last dumb of the options.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Sorry, there was no information that the SP part is totally useless, and that it is for train and practice only, in fact read the features page. I wouldnt buy the game than.

Dont get me wrong, I understand that its hard to write a good AI, but hell, a half year passed since the release of Doms 2..or even more?!!!
Still nothing, and as I understand Kristoffer O. they havent even touched the AI!!!

I cant believe this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

While I agree that fixing the "strategic" AI, or even the combat AI, would be a big endeavour, I'm also pretty confident that the "AI builds crap armies" thing *could* be fixed quite easily, with only changes into the army build routines. The AI should weight its decisions mostly towards "heavy" units and discard light ones after a certain (low) number.
This alone will make the solo games *much* more challenging, at least we'll have to fight "real" armies, rather than an half dozen of worthwhile units lost in an ocean of militias ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It took most of the Last century to develop an AI that could play chess competently. I highly doubt that even five or six years of work could do the same for a game as complex as Dominions. You are asking the devs to do the impossible, so it's not particularly likely that it will happen.

You might also want to get a new argument MStavros, since changing your alias and using the same text word for word doesn't change your argument.

[ May 08, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Hum I think that proteus have several valid points.

And I DO think that there is easy way to improve AI behaviour is THOSES peculiar points.

First thing will be to have AI template built for each nation giving it a "model" ( better several for less randomness ) army it will try to emulate, thoses modesl including battlefield scripting.

Spells have to be classified by types and ranked in value thus the Ai can script the correct chaining.

For the more strategic point... then we get the weakest link of computerised AI and I guess we will have to use a sorta frontline AI, one wich will abstract the battlefield into a series of nodes controled by entities with the AI aiming at expanding his net of nodes favoring direction by calculation ( indies first, 1 foe, Last province lost... ). All of this is pretty complicated.

Pretender/commander equipment should also be scripted for the AI with a selection by level of CONS and kind of commander and/or current foe. Difficult but possible for a full time payed developper to come with.

To sum it all, I guess the shortest way to improve the DOm2 AI is to give it some recipes on how to play and bind it to that. It will be pretty predictable by nation ( but that's not surprising ) but make a far better job at playing one logically.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ah! I wondered from the tone of the Messages if it might be MStavros again.

MStavros/Proteus: wasn't once enough? do we really have to go through all the tired old rants again?

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont agree. Huge amount of players are only playing singleplayer games. They should get the best what is possible for their money.
This game costs a lot of money, like the top seller high-end games. This is why the devs should focus on this, since this is the weak part of the game right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im real sorry if anyone feels they arent getting their money worth. I used to hear the same thing about Master of Magic because it wasnt multiplayer. Or GalCiv (the #1 AI game by the way) because it wasnt multi-platform. Now we have Illwinter's PBEM multiplayer game because the AI isnt good enough for decent solo play. Maybe the game description needs touched up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gandalf I am confused... Are you saying that the SP game of DomII IS BAD because of Bad AI and they should change the Description to read PBEM only???

Gandalf I had been meaning to ask you a question and now I guess is a good time... I think I read one time that you play SP 95% of the time.... My questions is what do you think of the AI??? Is the game fun and good as a SP game????

I am just asking because I always respect your opinion...

Thanks!

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What cant you believe about it? you are talking about what? 1 patch? 2 patches?

Im mostly a solo player but I dont expect them to spend alot of time upgrading a part of the game that isnt mainline to what they created.

The fact that some improvements are coming MIGHT be due to the fact that some players finally started doing test runs.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Constructive criticism citing that your topmost interest as a player for future patches is an AI improvement (and offering a few suggestions on how to go about it) is one thing. Flat-out Knocking a developer who has shown more support for his community than all but a handful of his better-paid, full-time colleagues is another.

Guess which one is more likely to garner respect and a proactive response from both devs and fellow community members.

[ May 08, 2004, 22:50: Message edited by: JaydedOne ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well Illwinter has never made any great claims about the AI. What was quoted was from the Shrapnel site. (they are the game production company. they are supposed to market it)

And yes, I think the description would be easier to fix than the AI for now. Im sure its on their list but I dont know what would have been left out of the Last couple of patches to give it to us. The speed control in battles? (I can hear he reaction to THAT)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would love to see it improved. I have no problem with asking. Im thrilled when I see Posts that actually try to pin down and test some suggested improvements. Its worked for me and Ive been making suggestions since the first days of Dom1. In my own small way Ive also tried to improve it thru maps. (www.dom2minions.com)

What I dont like is to see people saying its broke, making it sound like some falsified rip-off, demanding work be done on it, and generally turning it into something that the devs dont want to touch (well one dev programmer actually). Its not the subject I disagree with, its the tactics. Not only do I think they wont work well, I think they go in the opposite direction.

[ May 08, 2004, 22:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Hi,

First, I certainly think that every krone spent on this captivating game has been spent well!

And I certainly understand that the AI can be an extremely difficult thing to come up with good algorithms for.

But I just wanted to point out that improvements to the AI would certainly be highly appreciated by many people. If it is possible to find the time to do it of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, I find comments about "not getting what you paid for" hard to comprehend.

Cheers,
Thomas

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

1. I am NOT MStavros he is my older brother, and we are using one computer.
He introduced Dominions II. to me, and you know what?? We bought 2 copies not just one !!!!. I am playing multi games with him usually.
I didnt knew about his old topic, so Ive started a new, after we had a discussion about the AI at home.

I am a kinda new D2 player, I have like 2 months of experience, and I love the complexity of it.

I think that this is positive critism, isnt it??
Scripting must be hard I am totally sure, but this is nonsense to me still. Half year and no AI improvements....definitely not a good way to raise the 'fame' of IW.

Mr Parker, if you are a solo player, I simply cant understand your points at all. Even I can beat the crap out of this AI easily, and I am a newbie compared to you.
So what is the fun for you in the SP than?

IMHO the devs should make a statement, that they wont raise the quality of the AI, and people like me, who would like to enjoy the SP part as well will shut up once and for all, and play lot less with Doms II. [Only MP if we will have time for it.]
However I really hope that the devs wont forget about the lot of SP fans...eh well for 6 months they did actually.

You know I am reading that old topic, what my brother mentioned and all of those hella old problems with the AI are still not solved.
Perhaps IW should hire a new coder, if the current coder doesnt have the time to upgrade the AI...because it seems so.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

You seem to believe that AI coding is easy, and that you can just "hire another coder".

I'm sorry to inform you that this is not the case. AI coding is damn hard, and even if you hire some overpaid code monkey, there's no guarantee he won't produce something which sucks even more. Name ONE game that has truly had good AI. Then tell me what its production budget was.

Do you think Illwinter can afford that?

[ May 08, 2004, 23:03: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I apologize I never wanted to be 'demanding'. Simply this is my opinion.
I respect IW and their work, the game is really good. The only thing what I dont like, that the Doms II. AI improvement idea is totally dropped as I see.

A dev comment that it might be fixed...however they cannot guarantee it after lot of months..made me pissed.
So sorry for the tone of my Posts, but that made me very angry.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

double post sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 08, 2004, 23:12: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Indeed the game is complex -> hard to make a good AI.
there are lot better AIs for various games, take a look at HoMM3 for example.
It is not as complex that is true, but there the comp is making huge and strong armies, its really decent. Also it is using them very well.

Just go and play with it on harder settings you will have hard days, I guarantee it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Doms2 AI is hella weak compared to the homm3 AI for example. These little light infantry armies and the various other AI problems wont offer a little challenge at all.
I guess -as someone said- lot of people would be thankful for AI improvements, lot of people bought the game to play and enjoy the SP part as well, the game was advertised as a sp-mp game.
The core game had a bad AI, but why do we have a bad AI after a half year still? THIS is the real question here.

[ May 08, 2004, 23:13: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other than games where a decision tree can be mapped out for all possible combinations of moves like Chess, I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

There have been plenty of people here talking about the AI. Some of them program at various levels and have said that it would not be easy, simple, or quick. A single-threaded AI is going to be a hard project to patch. And other methods would be a major rewrite (scripted AIs are a great thing but everything in the game has to have a script-handle written into the code for it to work)

Thre are some threads that are helping the subject along. Do a search for
SUGGESTION: AI castle building algorithm
SUGGESTION: AI troop building algorithm

both of which need people who are wiling to test their ideas and post results.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Well I am here now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
I am mainly playing multip. games now, unlike my bro, but this is just because the AI is so crap still.
After that huge discussion in december (20 pages long thread about the AI), even I am annoyed a bit, that after all these patches the AI is the same. This means one thing. The developers can't be bothered about the AI. You don't like these opinions? YOu have the right, but don't forget it seems so that they can't be bothered about it. Is it good? Not at all!
Personally this is my favourite game, but Illwinter is not my favourite gaming company. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other than games where a decision tree can be mapped out for all possible combinations of moves like Chess, I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually Galactic Civilizations would be fairly ultimate in mentioning AI. In conversations in the real Artificial Intelligence sites it gets mentioned. Its still fairly new to the Windows envirnment but still keeps alot of its abilities.

But there is a big difference between building an AI and adding a game to it, versus building a game then adding an AI for testing and soloplayers.

[ May 08, 2004, 23:26: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

Mr. Parker, the galciv AI is really good, I must agree, but the homm3 AI is even better.

The comp rocking there. Sometimes it is making so huge and powerful armies that I need all my skill to beat it somehow with nasty tricks!
Sometimes I even loose against the AI.
Hardcore strategy fans should give it a try, its a huge challange. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In dominions 2. I win all games against 1-8 comps on all settings.
This tells about everything.

[ May 08, 2004, 23:29: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

One easy "improvement" would be to give the AI cheating powers.
Add a new level super-impossible, where the AI pays only 25% upkeep, has a 5% chance to have a castle build in a random province and gets a 50% research bonus.

This would satisfy the people who want a challenge and is relatively simple to do.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

mmmmmm, I had an idea in the past, regarding these LI AI armies.
Maybe a mod what removes all LI from the game should help in the 'weak LI AI armies' problem?
I wonder what would the AI do without LI...maybe it would make kickass armies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This wouldn't solve the other problems, but maybe one! [weak LI AI armies.]
Any opinions about this?

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

I hate cheating AIs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .. thats the Last thing what the devs should do if you ask me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

I know AOW, MOM have horrible cheating AI's. Most players don't seem to mind though.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

I like Dom II a lot, and I think that SP is fun. But difficult? No. Would I like to see the SP AI improved? Yes! Do I think its going to happen? No. But do proteus and his brother and whoever else have the right to complain about it? Heck yeah!

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

The HoMM3 AI is not cheating for example, and I cant tell you with words how good it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Try it and you will see.

Kristoffer or any other devs...can you tell us the content of the next patch?
What is what you are going to add/fix?
If I am correct we still wont have AI improvements, that wasnt hard to figure out, eh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
If not now, with the second patch from now, please try to improve the AI, and solve the problems step by step. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps all the pointless complaining made us pissed.

There was some constructive AI discussions recently that made me interested, but I'm quickly loosing interest. Right now I'm more interested in doing something I am feeling positive about like improving Pangaean themes or finishing the Shepherds of Creation scenario, or for that matter work at school.

The reason I do not say that there will not be an AI improvement is because we also feel that the AI should be improved.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, that tells us nothing, since you aren't discussing the nation you are playing, any of the game settings, which map you're using, and which opponents you've selected.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No AI improvenents as of now, but a couple of balance changes that has been topics lately. Can't remember exactly.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

This discussion is pointless.

The AI is as good as can be expected from a 2 man team. And I surely would not say that it is that bad. It is definitly a match for new players, and if I want a very challenging game then I play Mictlan (the nation I suck most with) against difficult Ermor.

The main problem with doing the AI is the following: You have to work out solutions for every possible situation, even those you have never encountered yourself, or situations where you actually don't know what to do. This might be fairly easy by such a simple game as heroes of might and magic, where you can calculate your decission down to a few parameters... however dominions 2 is so much more complicated with so many aspects to consider that the devs would surely need another ten years or so to code every smart solution.

What Illwinter actually did, very smart in my oppinion, is to take advantage of the computers strengths. Even today people discuss about the perfect army, the perfect strategy, and there is so much knowledge around here the AI could never match. Instead the AI uses some options that nearly every human would be too lazy to employ: It does the maximal recruitment possible out of every province and assemble huge armies.
Indeed, in most of my SP games and MP games involving AIs, they will leave everyone far behind in sheer numbers. Even tough their armies might not be the best designed, they are still a threat nontheless (in my current MP game, one of the more peacefull but most powerfull players dropped from the game. When the AI took over, its onslaught nearly brought 3 of his neighboring empires to its knees.

Imho the dominions 2 AI is comparable to that of Warcraft 3. Demanding at first, its not a match for an professional player.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ive played HoMM3 and you are correct. But its on a far less level of problem. Less units, less equip, less unit commands. But thats OK I can see the point.

The AI for Dom2 can be improved, has been improved, but will never be improved enough to not have these kinds of threads. If we get it to build LI at a level which works better for some nations then it will cause problems for others. If we get it to stop casting certain spells, or cast some more, or build sensible equip, or... well you see where its headed. There will always be more AI problems in a game like this one.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Against my better judgement (as if that mattered) it appears that some responses to other loud threads here are getting addressed. But it does make sense that its multiplayer things that are loudly being proclaimed "broken".

And also a request of mine looks like its getting added (dont get mad Ive been requesting longer than you have)

Quote:

If not now, with the second patch from now, please try to improve the AI, and solve the problems step by step. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He mentioned that a couple of threads had generated interest. Threads where Users discussed fixes and seemed willing to test them.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I was with you right up to the end. As far as their right to complain, ok. Doesnt that mean others have a right to say "shut up" if its hurting our chances of getting the AI fixed?

And actually I wouldnt use "right to complain" too often on a board that is owned by someone and provided for a specific reason. Doing damage to the reason can wash those "rights" away fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This isnt usenet newsGroups.

[ May 09, 2004, 01:41: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I certainly don't mind, Master of Magic / Orion were funnest and toughest at the impossible settings even though the AI receieved significant bonuses at those levels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Certainly if a player didn't want the CPU opponents to cheat they could just play at normal difficulty instead.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is going to be a rant, just so that you're warned:

There's complaining, and there's complaining incessantly, ignoring the explanations and arguments against their complaints.

They certainly don't have a right to demand that Illwinter does this or does that, which is what they are doing. Unlike what they seem to think, computer games are bought as-is. Caveat emptor. Any support ontop of what you get in the box is a bonus and a matter of good service, rather than something you're entitled to.

In my opinion Illwinter has done a great job supporting the community around the game - remember that for most other games "patch" usually means "bug fixes" rather than "game improvements" which is what we've gotten used to. That makes it especially grating to see them harp upon Illwinter as if Illwinter hadn't given the community any kind of support or service at all, just because Illwinter hasn't prioritized their unreasonable requests.

So they paid $50 for the game. So what? The Dominions AI is not any weaker than what's common for full-price strategy games, so it's not like they could really expect something better for that price anyway. Sure, there are games out there with better AIs, but then it's not reasonable to compare Dominions 2 only with the best AI games out there.

They are also both still playing Dominions 2 after several months, so they can hardly argue that they didn't get their monies worth or that the AI makes the game unplayable in single player.

So, no. I don't think they've really got a right to complain. They've gotten what they paid for, and more; they have been explained why it's unreasonable to demand heavy improvements in the AI; they've been told that Illwinter doesn't have the resources a major software house has, and they've been told that the Dominion AI isn't really weaker than what's standard for similar games. Yet still they persist in their complaining and, frankly, whining.

Re: Good game, but....the AI is very bad.
 

I'll certainly agree that the dominions 2 AI isn't perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as threads like this would indicate.

In particular, it is definately possible to play a challenging game against the AI, you just need to adjust the map to put the AI in an advantagous position.

I find the most significant AI shortcoming to be the fact that the AI doesn't build forts. (The AI builds much more effective armies when it has multiple forts to recruit troops from). Therefore, I often play games where I start the AI with 2 forts (or even 3). Additionally, I'll stick some extra independent forts on the map for the AI to conquer.

In my opinion, playing a single game against 4 pairs of allied 'Difficult' AIs (8 AIs total) each starting with 2 forts on a map scattered with independent forts is an interesting single-player experience which is much more challenging than a 'standard' single-player game of Dominions.

So, even though the AI isn't perfect, I am satisfied because it's good enough to give me a challenging game under the right circumstances.

Just my 2 cents,
- Matt Lepinski :->