Rate the SP AI...
 

Vote on how good you thing the current SP AI is in DomII

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm... I kind of lack an option for "Find SP with the current AI enjoyable, but would love improvements in this area".

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

you need an entry for "The single player AI is no better than decent, but the game is so complex that until you pick up the learning curve it seems impossibly hard and then gets exponentially easier"

Thats how it seems to me anyway. Right now i probably couldnt win a game with arceseophale set on normal but i can 9 indep/impossible AI games with Ermor, Marignon, Abysia, Caelum, R'lyeh, Pangea. (all the easier ones, in order that i learned them). Its all very relative, which is why the more scragly veterans have to modify maps to make it everyone vs them, or just play MP.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point Cheezeninja...

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

That's funny, cheezeninja, I found C'tis, Tien Chi, Vanheim, Man, Pangaea and Marignon to be easy ones. Abysia, Ermor, and Caelum trounce me often, while Ulm, Arcosephale, Pythium (dunno why, on paper they seem kinda weak), Machaka, Jotunheim, and the sea races are impossibly hard for me.

Without buying Fishermen or Ship Wrecker mercs to storm a sea province, I can't get to the oceans quick enough to stop an R'lyeh or Atlantian threat. Raids from the oceans is also hard to stop for me, since one ocean province borders on a lot of land provinces.

Advice?

Edit: I voted for SP is fun and AI is good.

[ May 09, 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Good poll. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I find the SP AI to be able to utilize many, if not most, of the options available to it. That said it can use a little "help" to make it a real challenge for experienced strategy gamers.

Adding a few forts to a map, in key provinces, gives it the ability to create more national units. Making the militia line units sacred removed the hoarding of weak units.

The most glaring weakness I found is an inability to take advantage of special sites or even to look for them. Neither does it seem to use gems in an efficient way, boosting spells rather than itemforging or unit summoning.

I can still get my arse kicked by a Mictlan normal AI. As usual the strength of an AI is micromanagement and unit transportation. The tedious bits of strategy where I make frequent mistakes.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jotun with Water Cult.
Ulm with water cult
Anyone with Wyrm
many with Blue Dragon
actually many with water cult and/or a water entering god.


I find that many games built around multiplayers, IF it has an AI Im surprised if it holds my interest to the end of the tutorial. I think Dom2 AI is better than that but I dont mind looking for ways to improve it.

But even if someone said Dom2 AI was only good until you learn the game, if you learn all the nations and themes thats still a good year of gaming. Well worth the price http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 09, 2004, 19:01: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Ulm with Water Cult? I don't think that'd be very good, since Ulm is designed to take 3 degrees of drain without having an effect because of the smiths, and water cult requires at least 1 magic scale.

BTW, why only Ulm and Jotunheim? Don't all races have access to water cult?

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Basic Ulm with watercult would not be a good idea since they lack sacred units. Scuba Marignon is a lot more scary. Drive by priesting is though without them storming the beaches. Cheap massable flagellants and though knights of the chalice can take on atlantis and R'lyeh if they have a good blesseffect backing them. Not to mention what submarine inquisition can do in a dominion push strategy.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I forgot to add, suppose I wanted to play a theme, like Diabolical Faith, then what?

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Then take air or watermagic to create scubagear. Or a lot of watermagic to launch an immediate water expansion so you can stock up on Tritons quickly.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

What scuba gear items are there? How much do they cost? Path requirements? Their effects?

I thought that scuba gear items usually comes pretty late in a game with very difficult research.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I find it difficult to rate the AI without discussing the purpose of it.

As a standalone single player experience its one rating.

As a prelude to MP its certainly another.

I also find that even when we talk about a better AI we might not talk about the same.
there is alot differense in wanting it to presure you more in the begining, be cheating, using different strategies or even be more MP like.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

First scuba gear appears at construction 2. Shamblers Skin (1w) and amulet of breathing (1a) One man gear but enough to send a group of competent commanders into the deep. At construction 4 the first group scuba gear appear. At 6 comes the submariners and at 8 the fabled "Orb of Atlantis" that essentially lets you take on water nations as an equal.

See Zens item reference sheet for information. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/d2/6.htm

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Yeah... more specific, Wauthan?

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

The A.I. is great for learning the game.

Since learning the game takes a long, long time time...well...i'd say the A.I. is fit for its purpose.

Particularly the concept that everyone is bound to declare war on you sooner rather than later, and all together.

One thing that I don't understand though - why do A.I. nations far away from you declare war on you, do a few distance spells (funny how they seem to know exactly where to launch those spells to target your armies even though they're not supposed to know where they are), and then nothing?

The only thing I really dislike is when they cast that unnatural aging global enchantment really early, and you see all your nice expensive leaders, prophets etc get afflictions and die http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If only leaders could be immune to global enchantments...

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI is just as capable of sending scouts around as a normal player, so I expect this is where much of their knowledge comes from.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont think the AI declares war any mroe intelligently than anything else it does. It might just see you gaining provinces and army then decide you must be an enemy. Seems like that way. I think its all fluff anyway. It doesnt seem to make it more likely to attack even if it is next door.

As to Burden of Time that was turned down in the Last patch. The AI is supposed to be less fond of casting it.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Hey... Cool So far we have the "Bell Shape Curve" going..... Throw out the highest vote and the lowest vote... Only 1 each so far....

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its interesting. Actually Im kindof surprised at the results. But whichever way it turns out we need to think of it as a poll "for entertainment only". The devs wills see the numbers best if no one intereprets them for them. They are interested.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I'm sure only newbies like me (I can only consistently beat Easy AI with easy races, still trying to overcome easy Ulm, Jotunheim, Arcosephale, Pythium, Machaka, Ermor, and the more outlandish races in Caelum, Atlantis and R'lyeh on easy) voted for the SP is enjoyable one.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Well Im not a very good player, and I dont get to play as often as I want, but Im still finding it worthy. Im not continually beating all the AIs on maximum game settings (not just the AI setting but the other settings that affect AI also). And Im definetly not ready to take on maps with boosted AIs allied together against me.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

The poll lacks the central "AI is ok, but no better than that" entry.

Actually, as human behaviour tends to select the median answer more often than would otherwise be indicated, the poll needs two more answers - a positively and a negatively slanted middle ground.

I would suggest "AI needs improvement, it does hurt my enjoyment of SP"

and "AI does the job quite well, but could be improved a lot"

for the negative and positive options.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

No offense, but this poll is fairly odd.

Firstly, each of the four choices is broken down into categories which are purely normative (great, good, not very good, bad), which I suppose is fine enough, but to what are you going to compare purely normative categories? "Good" compared to what?

Secondly, some of the above-mentioned categories are paired with *additional* purely normative ones, namely: level of SP fun. These two options are compiled with the middle two voting options.
These additional categories suggest an implicit syllogism, which also happens to be flawed (the syllogism proposing a supposed causal connection between "fun" value of SP and normative worth of AI in question, the conclusion of which is that a game lacking extreme AI quality will also lack in extreme SP fun).

Judging AI in purely normative categories will get you nothing but subjectivism and a very good chance of inducing weird feelings in developers, should they read the results of these polls.
Additionally, I believe that "fun" and "quality of AI" are not necessarily causally interdependent, and hence I refrain from voting. Temporary conclusion of the foregoing.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

4 options for the quality of the AI.

1-very good
2-good
3-not good
4-awful

Just look at the poll like this, and you can choose.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent points but I think the vocabulary exceeds the purpose.

It would seem so far that the poll is simply whether or not people like the AI. The only problem I see is if someone tries to jump the gun and say that everyone not liking the poll automatically means that they all thought it was broke. Or that they feel it should be fixed. Or worse yet that they automatically feel it should already have been fixed and should be a priority right now.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Well I agree, that maybe a more detailed poll would be nice, but this is good as well. Simple options to decide the quality of the AI.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

*Update*

The SP AI is some of the best I have ever seen in A PC game 2% (2)
The AI is good and the SP game is very fun to play 43% (38)
The AI is not very good and I dont play much SP because of it 24% (21)
This game has taken the "I" out of AI.... 31% (27)


I can tell you 2 things so far after this poll, so far.
1. Lot of people are playing/would like to play the SP part of the game.
2. More than the half of the voters think that the AI is far from good. In fact 31% say that the AI is very bad.
Interesting..

Vote people!

[ May 10, 2004, 17:29: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

(diplomatic mode ON)
Well I can now point out that over the Last couple days we have had 35 new accounts from the same dial-up servince in Hungary who wanted to vote on the Last couple of options there. Many from the same IP number. There are alot possible reasons for this. Possibly there is a really strong gaming club there of solo Dom2 players.
(diplomatic mode OFF)

Alot of good that did our case. Thank you very (*@&#*($ much "hungary club". The devs have been doing alittle more than 1 code tweak every DAY since Dom2 came out. Every patch has had a number of items in it which obviously were not anything the devs felt was what they wanted or that they were having fun putting in. Every patch has had at least 1 AI improvment. Up to now at least.

Whats next guys?

(edited to reflect new count)

[ May 10, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Don't be too harsh on him. He's hilarious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

MStavros: you are hereby appointed Illwinter Court Jester. The title doesn't come with any real powers (apart from the obvious doppelganger ability), but it will grant you the power of 'limited wish'. 'Limited Wish' can only be cast once a month. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

What did MStavros say that was funny? All I see is a "Good poll" post.

PvK

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What?

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

PvK: He has created multiple personas to further his own agenda. Unless proteus (the shapeshifter in greek myth) really is his brother he has even talked to himself. He is multivoting and he always say the same things in the same manner with the same arguments. I find it funny and endearing that he cares so much about our AI that he does this. I'm almost compelled to bug JK for AI improvements.

For multivoting info see Gandalf's post earlier in this thread.

Edit: Sorry MStavros, if proteus is your brother you must give him the title instead.

[ May 10, 2004, 20:44: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Oh, well I wasn't home at daytime, so I don't know what happened.
So he created more accounts? Why? .. Eh I guess I should ask him.
Sorry for the trouble. He will be asskicked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ May 10, 2004, 23:16: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

No trouble. I'm starting to like proteus. He has made me laugh a lot the Last couple of days. It was even more fun when I was convinced that you were the same person. Unfortunately I'm not certain anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Now the poll is useless to voters as well as to us. We are rarely influenced by polls, unless we make them ourselves, but voters might get irritated.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Well he is a kid still, but he loves the game, I can tell you that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif He is playing more Dominions II. than any other games, and we've got like 35-40 games, even the new releases.

Oh and just bug Johan to improve the AI, that is a good idea indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup proteus... That is a good way to reword it...

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Gandalf did this poll get hacked?????

We should not have near that many votes for #4...

Can you take all the votes from the same IP out???

[ May 10, 2004, 22:17: Message edited by: Kuroth1 ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I’m one of those for whom the AI on the lower levels is challenging. I don’t play the game for extended periods of time and I’m always starting over, it seems.

Now that I understand that the AI is poor, the chances that I’ll devote a lot of time to the game are diminished. I don’t have the time for multiplayer so games with poor AIs get pushed to the bottom of the pile.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm just like me in these weeks. I have no time for MP, but I play with the singleplayer, regardless that the AI is poor.
Until the AI is improved, just play against allied AIs, it is a good challenge, but don't drop the game, have faith in the devs.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Proteus appears to have gone and made some 35 accounts, I guess all of them have voted for the two bottom alternatives, so if we assume no one else pulled a similar stunt, approximately 3/4 of the people responding to the poll think the AI is good, for whatever that is worth.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

35 accounts?! -------..
Are you sure that he voted at all, or that he voted for the bottem 2?
I will ask him tomorrow anyways, I cannot talk with him right now.

[ May 10, 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Limited Wish, in the sense that you can wish for it, but it doesn't actually happen?

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I wouldn't take the word of whiners that the AI is poor. It can still keep me at bay after many months playing Doms I and II, and has beaten me or given me a very tough fight much more often than I have beaten it, when there are multiple AI's in the game and some or all of them have bonuses.

I've had first-rate, challenging and interesting games against the AI - as fun and interesting as I've had from any game.

PvK

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Limited Wish, in the sense that you can wish for it, but it doesn't actually happen? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe it means that he gets to wish for things without me giving him a hard time.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Poll results so far:


The SP AI is some of the best I have ever seen in A PC game 1% (1)
The AI is good and the SP game is very fun to play 46% (34)
The AI is not very good and I dont play much SP because of it 26% (19)
This game has taken the "I" out of AI.... 27% (20)

Well, this result is not a surprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup I think so too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Still this isnt a real problem. I am pretty sure that if these AI problems will be fixed, even an experienced player will have hard time to beat the AI.

[ May 10, 2004, 12:30: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its interesting. Actually Im kindof surprised at the results. But whichever way it turns out we need to think of it as a poll "for entertainment only". The devs wills see the numbers best if no one intereprets them for them. They are interested. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup I agree, but polls are the best way to show the problems, our feelings etc. for the developers!
I wanted to make an exact poll like this one, but kuroth was faster!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ May 10, 2004, 12:33: Message edited by: proteus ]

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

I was a bit bored, so I had fun with creating accounts, sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
I never hacked the vote, I don't know what are you talkin' 'bout.

Re: Rate the SP AI...
 

Hm, and I am not on Dial Up, this is a 1.5mbit DSL line...