Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

Greetings.


I've noticed recently strange behaiver of lifedrain-type attacks against mirror-imaged targets.

For expample when ID wielding lifedrain weapon attacked my mirror shielded Air Queeen, he would not be able to hit her due to mirror images and high defense.

However with _every_ swing of his life-draiing sword he did add big chunk of fatique to her, despite being unable to actually hit her. In just few turns she went over 100 fatique, than to 200, and than he killed her.

I don't think this is the way lifedrain attack supposed to work, correct? I mean, if you are unable to hit the target, much less cause actual damage to it (AQ was always in full hitpoints and kept her mirrorimages until she went over 200 fatique), than how do you suppose to lifedrain the target with your weapons?

Somebody told me once that according to developers lifedrain supposed to give you some fixed percentages of damage inflicted on the target as hitpoints and fatique gains. (don't remeber excact numbers)

If this is the case, than it is certanly currently buged, since no damage was inflicted in my example, but fatique was gained/inflicted nevertheless.


This is not the only similar observation. Norfleet alose reported that he had the same situation when he encountered bunch of vampires with his VQ. Their attacks immideatly caused VQ to went over 100 fatique, despite the fact that they could not actuially hit her and she was still mirror-imaged.


I would really appreciate some commants from developers regarding this situations.


Also does anybody know how exactly lifedrain type attack supposed to work, and how it is actually currently working? According to death-specialist Norfleet neither MR, not protection(?) help against lifedrain attacks, at least from fatique-loss point of view. He said he doesn't know if defense helps against it. Any comments?

[ May 11, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

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Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

This is from a developer post:
"A life drain attack regains damage*2 fatigue and damage/2 HP. It also causes damage/2 extra fatigue on the target. Only lifeless units are immune."

That it bypasses mirror images and/or defence very much sounds like a bug though.

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was under the impression that undead couldn't generally drain one another, though most of them do not have the "lifeless" tag.

Could someone clarify?

Thanks,

Rabe the Golem Groupie

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

yah, it seems such attacks inflict fatigue loss whatever the result of the rest of the attack. this seems overpowered, but may or may not be a bug.

However, zen told me when I inquired that nothing, even a lifeless unit, is immune to these attacks. That would, at the very least, seem to be a bug then.

It also makes carrion woods rather difficult to deal w/ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

It may be that life drain deals damage to all, but you are only reinvigourated if the target is not lifeless IIRC. This is at least true for wraith sword and similar weapons.

Fatigue for free sounds suspiciously buglike.

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

you aren't reinvigorated (using a wraithsword, for ex.) against undead either, though the attack will still cause damage to them. This seems correct to me - the auto attack success is wierd, though, as well as lifeless units taking fatigue (I haven't checked this personally - just going on what Zen said).

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

This is from the VQ Counters - NO debate

Where both Zen and Norfleet confirm that lifedrain attacks inflict fatique on their targets without hitting.

The feelings expressed there seemed to be that it was an SC balance decision, and not a bug...

EDIT: Just clarifying that if this is in fact a "bug", that fixing it may in fact make SC's invulnerable, so tread carefully

[ May 13, 2004, 16:00: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

Zen says that the fatigue is inflicted regardless of whether the attack penetrates protection: It's possible that the attack "hits", but doesn't inflict any damage through protection, but the fatigue is caused anyway. Since no physical damage is caused, mirror image doesn't fail.

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is also true of anything that has a secondary effect but doesn't deal any actual damage. Though it may or may not be on the same level as Life Drain. Meaning, a weapon that has a secondary effect of poisoning, that doesn't actually hit through protection can still poison if the unit is not immune to poison. Same with things that have effects like "Tangle Vine". Some effects (Can't remember off the top of my head) require damage before they are applied AFAIK but Life Drain and numerous weapons with secondary effects do not.

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

Hmmm if the code checked to see if the weapon hit then treated both effects as a hit or not hit based on that, how would that affect other weapons? Are all such weapons in that Category or are there some where the effects need to be checked seperately?

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

Seems pretty clear that there should be several categories, e.g.:

* Doesn't need to hit: wall of fire, gas cloud, heat/cold aura

* Needs to hit, but primary attack doesn't need to penetrate: astral weapon, electrocution, mage bane, elf bane

* Needs to hit, and needs to penetrate:
blood poison, venom, bane blade

What exactly each effect's requirements are is largely up to interpretation, though. The one that seems clearest to me though is venom versus armor - one should really need to get through external armor before causing poisoning, it seems to me.

PvK

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I thought. And it is confirmed behaviour, since all three of us - me, Norfleet and Zen, have seen it with mirror-imaged targets.


As for Zen's comments about possibiluty of lifedrain attak draining fatique witout penetrating target's protection - it is possible, of course but I think there is more than that.

My Air Queen for example, with 9 mirrorimages and high defense rating, was hit for fatique 2 times per turn, with every swing of Icedevil's sword. Even if she was drained because she was hit but her armor was not penetrated every time (which was quite unlikely in that case) the icedivel had to hit the one correct image out of 9 once or twice _every_ turn. It is possible but very unlikely statisically.

I think lifedrain attack could be buged twice in fact: first beacuse it is draining fatique despite dealing no damage, contrarery to the above quote by developres, and secondary because it ignores mirrorimages alltogether, always striking "correct" image.


In fact today my fully equpied Odin was attacked by AQ with wraithsword. Despite casting 7 mirror images authomatically he was instantly fatique-drained to 100+, because AQ was hiting him every or almost every singly time that she striked, withough inflicting any hitpoint damage or breaking mirrorimage. (and he was +4 defense on top of his defense boosting gear due to water 9, in addition to having 7 mirrorimages due to air3)

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water magic does not grant a secondary bonus of +defense. That's only the water BLESSING, and you cannot bless your pretender.

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water magic does not grant a secondary bonus of +defense. That's only the water BLESSING, and you cannot bless your pretender. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ooops, you are right of course, I was confused.

However my point is that my AllFather had defense over 25 with his gear and had 7 mirrorimages, so how could Air Queen with wraithsword hit him once or twice every turn? (she was wearing quickness armor). Same with my Air queen when she was attacked by lifedraiing ID, except that being Air4 she had 9 mirrorimages, don't remeber her defense.

See what I mean?

[ May 14, 2004, 04:21: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

Were you being attacked by other enemies as well? Being attacked by multiple enemies reduces your effective defense in ways that aren't displayed and I don't recall. Were any other fatigue-inducing effects present on the battlefield, such as heat auras, cold auras, or flying lightning bolts?

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet, I am not newbie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Both times it was one on one battle. No auras, and I was monitoring units before and after every sword hit for fatique. The only explanations to this is either what I suggested (2nd lifedrain-related bug with mirror images) or that both times I was very unlucky.


In any case, if the above quote from developers is true and that is how lifedrain is supposed to work (fixed percentage from damage inflicted), than all lifedrain type attacks in game are currently broken, there can be no doubts about it - your own observations as well as mine confirm it.

The only question if this is broken in 1 or 2 ways.


EDIT: As for formula for the reduced defense, IIRC each additional attacker reduces effective defense by one.

[ May 14, 2004, 04:58: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

PvK: There are different categories. Poison only affects those wounded, while flames might affect the target regardless of a hit. I'm not sure which attacks are this way, but there are some.


I'm starting to believe that the mirror image is the problem and not the life drain (poison and wraith sword affecting units).

It is quite possible that after a hit (with effects) the mirror has a chance of removing the damage. Fatigue and poison not affected.

Have you experienced the same effects with poison and (nonmagic weapons) and ethereal or is it only the mirror image that is a problem?

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool. That's what I figured, but thanks for the confirmation.

PvK

Re: Possible bug with lifedrain attacks? - developers please read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see. Yes, it is indeed possible as well just as you siad - if you have in your code check for the morror image _after_ damage/fatique calculations.


It's funny, because if this is so, than being protected by mirror image may as well be currently worse than not being protected by it, when you under attack by life-draining weapon, depending where you have check for target's protection. It feels alsmot as if your immages are draining the life from you by themself... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


Another possible thing to consider while you would be looking in it in the code is to check how mirrorimage works with mistform. According to the "fixed percentage" formula that I assume to be a "correct one", since you didn't object to it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , while target is protected by mistform and/or mirror image the worst thing that could happen is -1 or even zero fatique drain/gain (depending which way you round down the numbers), unless mistform is broken. But I am reasonably sure that it wasn't broken on that Air Queen, since Ice Devil wielding Hell sword wasn't actully hiting her the first place. Therefore if mirrorimage indeed accidently removes the damage but not fatique, as you suggested, it may do it without taking mistform into account, and therefore assigning a "full" damage instead of just 1 hitpoint as it should with mirrorimage spell. Just a programmer's guess, since I don't have your code in front of me.

Unfortunately I can not give you much info about poison or astral weapons with mirrorimages - I am much more often attacked by lifestealing weapons than by poison ones in my MP games.