Best summon?
 

Wouldn't mind getting everyone's opinions on what they feel is the best summon. Please take into account gem cost, spell level, and research level. Here's my top five.

5) Behemoth (Enchantment 4, DDD, 10 Death Gems)

Nothing like mixing a few mammoths into an already impressive Jotun army. It's only Enchantment 4, which also gives you raise skeletons and twiceborn if you are going to beeline it. Unfortunately 10 gems can be a lot to pay, and not every nation is going to have a DDD mage lying around. But it's hard to argue that you aren't better off having a few of these guys around.

4) Ice Devils (Blood 5, WWWBBB, 55 slaves)

VQs bothering you? No problem. For 55 blood slaves and blood 5 you get a serious can-o-whoopass of your own. For best results research const 4 as well (like you weren't going to anyway). The WWWBBB casting cost can be a hurdle, but don't let that scare you off. In addition to being the best chassis you can get, the Vampire Queen is also your best bet for casting this one.

3) Devils (Blood 3, FFBB, 7 slaves)

Nothing cuts down mages and archers faster than a few devils. At this price, how can you not make a few? Can also be forged for 80 slaves and BBBBB. Use a dwarven hammer for best results. Staff of storms can be trouble, plan ahead.

2) Lamia Queen (Conjuration 6, NNNN, 15 nature gems)

Maybe the best use of nature gems around. Good researcher, skeleton generator, relief caster, whatever. You can't find a better summonable mage.

1) Wights (Construction 3, DD, 5 Death Gems)

You can lump the higher-level wight lords in here as well, but IMHO this is the finest summon unit in the game. Just about any nation can field a huge army of them in the midgame, depending on their death gem supply. DD mages aren't too hard to find, either independant, national, or empowered (Death Staff). They resist cold and poison, they have a chill aura, their weapons are magical, they are small. Few weaknesses, many strengths, low requirements. Tha

Re: Best summon?
 

Doom Horror (Alt-9, SSSSSSSSS, 100 Astrals)

[ May 16, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Best summon?
 

Celestial Soldiers are a good, solid summon, in my opinion. They were very useful against the mighty Black Plate Infants of Ulm. These guys can slam enemy armor pretty damn hard, with superhuman strength and glaives. They also move fast enough to get to the battle in time (2 strat move on a 15 prot unit is good by my standards) and their battle move is decent enough for them to flank the enemy occasionally. They also cost 4 gems to a horse and summon in 5-packs. It's a shame that not all Celestial Masters can summon them without empowerments/items.

I'm also a fan of Behemoths. Non-routing elephants can be devastating.

Trolls are excellent summons in a gem-poor environment, if you the money to sustain them. Troll kings can also be used as troll generators, but I don't find the court economical unless your pretender is the only other mage that can summon trolls.

Re: Best summon?
 

Conjuration 7 - Air Elemental Queen (cost: 5 Air, 50air gems)

Three of these summons equals almost like having three VQs. Arm with same equipment like VQs and research alt 3 to:

- mistform
- mirror image
- charge body

ATTACK REARMOST (RAMPAGE!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 16, 2004, 08:46: Message edited by: Azhur ]

Re: Best summon?
 

Vine Ogres - With an Ivy crown and 3N its easy to pump a lot of these these out at 1 nature gem each. They dont have that good hitting power but are solid "meat wall" for a lot of nations who rely on Missile/magic in battles. I use them quite a lot when playing R'lyeh and Man.

Revenants - For 9 death gems you get a researcher that doesnt cost upkeep more or less for free. And you can put that feverish amulet (sp?) on them for Fire gem hoarding.

Specter - Same as Revenant but cost 10 Death gems and requires 3D to cast, but are much better at researching.

Angelic Host- 50 Astral gems for 7 swift Blitzkrieg fliers that could wreak havoc behind enemy lines, and are nasty against undead AND are sacred. Then, they are not strong enough to fight large battles by themselves. Maybe not a game winner, but a PITA for your enemy, especially if he relies on mages in battles.

Then there is the Tarrasque(sp?) and Abominion at Conjuration 9. But I seldom get that far on the research tree unless its a big game.

I usually have problems with the wights chilling aura in Siege battles, since I tend to have a lot of other non-undead troops. If I'm playing a blood nation I would vote Devils as #1, otherwise I would say Abominions. A few of these could rout anything but the strongest defence, and 25 Astral is easy to Alchemize no matter what kind of magic sites you have found.

If possible I only use Trolls if I need a quick infantry boost against an enemy. One Sea Kings court is usually nice, but it cost too much gold to maintain to be a good summon strategy in my opinion. 3 or 4 turns of casting Sea Kings court and you will feel it on your upkeep.

[ May 16, 2004, 10:08: Message edited by: Belcarl ]

Re: Best summon?
 

Enliven statues. Ench 6, EEE, 20 e gems. 10 living statues a pop, +2 per extra path. Ok shield for your mages, but when it really shines is when you take a cyclops god with e-10 for the reinvigoration, and then give him earth boots so he gets 26 statues a pop!

Re: Best summon?
 

How do clockwork horrors work? I know they're timed or something, and stops working at the middle of the battle. How does that work (numbers!) though?

Re: Best summon?
 

They seem to gain fatigue every round until they pass out. I think this quantity is 15 per turn.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Especially when you cast it in The Oak of Ages.

Re: Best summon?
 

Some really good ones here!

I'll cast my vote for my favorite: ether warriors.

For 90 gems you get 15 kick-*** troops AND a kick *** leader.

I mean what would you rather have 10 Wights lead by a Wraith Lord or 15 ether warriors lead by an Ether Lord? Thought so!

But in all fairness the requirements for ether gate are pretty high and it is higher on the tech chart than wrights.

Oh and Enliven Statues sounds positivly amazing!

Re: Best summon?
 

Ether Gate's cost is too much for me. 90 Astral gems could go towards something better.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd rather have the wights and wraith lord, or better yet, two wraith lords and a bane lord.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I understand that you can get the wights considerably earlier, like probably 15 turns or so.

But assuming that you had an astral 4, death 1 caster, and you also had a bunch of death 2/3 casters and you had either 90 death gems of 90 astral you are saying that you would rather the wights?? That seems crazy to me. The ether warriors are simply superior troops.

Re: Best summon?
 

Call Abomination. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, is there a much point of casting charge body? It only affects first oppponent who manage to hit it, IARC.

Re: Best summon?
 

Earth: I'm a big fan of the Clockwork Horrors. The sheer number that can be produced is very impressive. They tend to form the backbone of my defensive forces. Gargoyles are also really nice, but I can rarely afford them.

Death: Ghosts got to be the hardiest bloody units in the game. I've had many sessions where they were the only fivestar units around (they killed all the others).

Nature: I don't actually know why but I really like bog beasts. I mix them into armies with poison immune creatures and watch the death toll rises dramatically. There's nothing so bad that an ugly poisonfarting venomspitting swamp monster can't make it a heck of a lot worse.

Water/Fire: The Drakes. Again you get a lot of staying power for the cost and their immunities allow for crazed mage artillery support.

*Scratches head* I guess that's all. While there are a lot of cool creatures in the game I never find myself using them as frequently as those mentioned. I find bloodmagic to be too annoying to explore those units. Some units I even had too boost a little before finding any reason to use. Summon Animals and Corpse Man Construction come into mind. Anyone use these spells regularly?

Re: Best summon?
 

wights... you mean Darth Vaders?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Best summon?
 

Do Ether Warriors have zero fatigue?

I like a lot of them. Scorpion Beasts are good as Machaka, since you have fire gems and cheap FE mages to summon them.

Vine Ogres are extremely efficient, especially if you have druids.

Horde From Hell is great as Mictlan, for the flying demon leader.

The death summons from wight on up are extremely good, though the lowest one (5D gems, unit) is my least favorite. And I like Pale Riders as much as Behemoth, usually.

Succubi are very fun and potent.

Vampire Lord is rather good - he can call free vampires - immortal army after a while.

The higher-level ones are of course, quite impressive...

PvK

Re: Best summon?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

Quote:

But assuming that you had an astral 4, death 1 caster, and you also had a bunch of death 2/3 casters and you had either 90 death gems of 90 astral you are saying that you would rather the wights?? That seems crazy to me. The ether warriors are simply superior troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">15 ether warriors can be killed by one or two properly equipped bane lords, so of course I'd rather have the wight based summons. The wraith lord choice is completely superior, since he's both immortal and has death 3 for soul vortex.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what you are saying is that any unit that can not be equipped is useless. Hence only commander units are worthwhile summons. Ok.

Sounds like the old SC argument I have seen many times on this board but whatever.

Heck you must think that this entire thread is useless.

Re: Best summon?
 

Usefulness can't be measured by a head-on fight. A light infantryman, hell, even a militia, will probably kill a crossbowman in one-on-one combat, but that doesn't mean that he's more useful.

Bane Lords might be more useful against Ethereal units and such, but Ether Warriors are highly effective against magical beings and mundane soldiers.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They aren't as effective against regular soldiers as a bane lord with jade armor, wraith sword, and flying boots. If you are having a lot of trouble against magical troops, then you can give one a moonblade for 5 pearls, which is much less than the cost of a single ether warrior.

The stats on even a garden variety, non-commander wight are nearly as good as those on an ether warrior, which doesn't justify their extreme cost.

[ May 17, 2004, 03:42: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh? What am I missing here? A wight costs 5 gems, which is approximately the same as the cost of an ether warrior, isn't it?

Also, summoning EWs is much more efficient as you get 15 of them in one mage-turn, compared to just the one wight (or is there another spell for summoning wights in bulk?)

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are 100% correct.

But mr "normal troops have no use" does not do the math. He just flaps his lips, or rather just types without thinking.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd prefer 60 wights. Or 20 wights plus Wraith Lord and use remaing 20 gems for Wraith Lord equipment.

The only reason I might prefer Ether Lord is if I need a strong astral mage to protect my weak astral mages for magic duel. Besides strong astral magic, Ether Lord isn't that easy to kill with remote spells and assasinations.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The spell "Legion of Wights" gives you 20 wights at 30 death gems. This is much cheaper than Ether Warriors, which demand a hefty 90S gem cost. From a cost-effectiveness perspective, most astral summons are greatly overpriced for their value, as compared to summons of comparable research level and power of other magic paths. This is undoubtedly because astral gems are considered to be cheaper than most other gems, perhaps in part due to clam usage. Many fire spells and summons exhibit a similar property, perhaps because of the Fire counterpart, the Fever Fetish.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, that's what I was missing. On the other hand (I just looked it up) LoW is a level 9 spell, while Ether Gate is only level 6. So you're going to be able to summon ether warriors much earlier than you can (cost-effectively) summon wights.

So I guess the answer is that you'll use wights if you have Cjn 9 but use ether warriors if you need the grunt now, but only have Cjn 6-8.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what your problem is, but I suggest you lose the insults. I'm simply pointing out that you would be better off using those astral gems for just about any other possible use. If you really want to waste your astral pearls on ether warriors, be my guest. I merely pointed out that a single wraith lord is a more effective use of your gems than a single cast of ether warriors.

The question was originally whether a person would rather have a wraith lord and 15 wights, or an ether lord and 15 ether warriors. The wights are superior as they have the same stats and have 0 encumbrance. Ether gate requires 90 astral pearls, gives you a mage with the same skills you already had to summon it, and gives you 15 troops that are outmatched by a level 3 summon. You would almost certainly be better off by using those gems to forge any of the various astral items.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, that's what I was missing. On the other hand (I just looked it up) LoW is a level 9 spell, while Ether Gate is only level 6. So you're going to be able to summon ether warriors much earlier than you can (cost-effectively) summon wights.

So I guess the answer is that you'll use wights if you have Cjn 9 but use ether warriors if you need the grunt now, but only have Cjn 6-8. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">... And if you have 90 astral to spare, which doesn't normally happen early in the game (at least not to me). Wights have additional advantage, because you need only 30 death gems to cast them, so waiting until 90 gems is not necessary. Ghosts are another good summon, which is very cost efficient if you have skillful death mage (summonned demi-lich with few magic boosters does pretty well too).

Re: Best summon?
 

I like Reanimation as Jotun in the early game. Giant Skells! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Best summon?
 

Glad my topic generated some discussion.

I love wights, but I've never cast legion of wights. By that time I want Wight Lords (whichever the immortal ones are). Even without the jade armor/wraith sword/boots they are awesome. With those toys they are amazing. Legion of Wights is amazing bang for the buck, but by that time I've usually got enough wights.

When playing a death nation, I usually beeline conj 3 and start a monthly wight summon by around turn 8. This costs a lot of death gems, but I think it's worth it. I don't think I've ever seen a wight die to an indy. I've taken knight provinces with just 5 wights on guard commander and a hasted skeleton summoner.

Re: Best summon?
 

I like Enliven statues for the reasons mentioned below - definitely like them more than Clockwork Horrors or Mechanical Men.

One of my Favorites though is Ivy King. Not much of a unit by himself (especially with zero precision), although OK for casting Mass Protection. However, Ivy Kings are great for summon Vine Ogre. I think they get 4 per cast. What a deal for 1 nature gem.

Re: Best summon?
 

Living Statues are indeed superior to Clockwork Horrors. But that's like comparing a vintage vine to fresh grapes. The CH are low on the tech tree on the vital construction school and get maximum result from the lowest possible caster. To get the most out of Enliven Statues you need to research for longer and have such a very powerful earthmage that you can not summon them in many places.

I'm sort of confused about some Posts. Are people talking about the summoned creature they get the best use out of or simply the best possible unit available? Sure the high end spells produce some really powerful monsters but a Tarrasque won't help you at all when you are already struggling against a horde of vinemen in the early game.

[ May 17, 2004, 18:55: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Best summon?
 

I'm a big fan of Ether Warriors, so the discussion vs. Wights was very interesting. I hadn't realized wights were so tough.

I looked up the unit stats to compare them more directly:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
Wight EW
Size 2 3
HP 20 22
Prot 22 17
Mor 17 15
MR 14 13
Enc 0 6
Str 16 16
Att 12 13
Def 13 12
Prec 10 15
Move 3/5 1/15

Other notable stuff:

Wight: 100 CR, 100 PR, undead, Need not eat, chill, Bane blade (6/1/2/2 Decay)

Ether Warrior: Magic being, Ethereal, Moon Blade (11/2/2/3 (x2 dam vs magic beings))</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So, the stats are close, but the Wight wins or ties on most of them., Prot in particular.

The EW's are size 3, which can be nice vs minotaurs (size 3 tramplers) as I've seen in my current game, but the downside is that means they eat more. The EW's also have much better precision, but I'm not sure what/how much effect that really has. (Anyone know how precision effects melee combat?)

The move stat is interesting. The Wight has a 3 map move, making it speedy to move around the map (terrain willing), but only 5 for combat move. The EW is the opposite, with only 1 map move, but a fairly speedy 15 for combat moves. My armies tend to end up with 1-move units like hoplites in them anyway, so the EW's 1 map move isn't that big a deal, so I'll give the edge to the EW and 15 combat move over the wight's 5 combat move.

For special abilities, the wights have all the usual undead bonuses (and liabilities), plus the chill effect. Chill is nice, but makes it harder to mix them in with regular units, if you aren't going all-undead. EW's are ethereal. it's a tough call for me which is preferable, but I'm thinking ethereal tops undead/chill.

I'm not sure what the Bane blade's decay effect exactly does. I've heard that any units hit with decay will die after combat ends. Is that correct? Is there an MR roll for that? Is there any effect on the decayed unit prior to the end of combat?

Admittedly without fully understanding the bane blade's decay, it seems like the Moon blade is much better - almost twice the regular damage, the x2 vs magical beings, and a longer blade.

All told, the Wight looks pretty darn good, requiring only a 2D caster and 5 death gems. The Legion of Wights spell is a fantastic bargain, but needing a 6D caster and Conj-9 makes that a fairly late-game strategy. Prior to that, needing to summon one at a time is rather slow, but if you make it a monthly ritual, it might not be so bad.

Still, the EW's etherealness, better weapon, and ability to group summon them at a good bit lower level do seem to give them some worthwhile use, even if they are somewhat overpriced, IMHO. And while the Ether Lord isn't an SC, he makes a pretty good combat mage, being pretty hardy, and with access to the awesome nether darts, and the assorted nifty astral spells (ie: enslave mind).

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It has no effect on melee combat at all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any unit that is affected by decay or bleed will lose about 1 hitpoint per turn until they are dead. This death can only be prevented once the effect starts through regeneration. There is a MR check on each hit of the weapon to see if the decay effect starts. There may be an increased risk of afflictions associated with decay damage, but I cannot confirm this.

Re: Best summon?
 

Well one negative for the wight army is that they can get banished. Wights have good MR, but I've seen them get bLasted by banishment. In a whole group of wights, more of the banishment would land on target, too. Of course, mixed with other undead junk, you get a good undead mob going.

Ether warriors can be taken out by things that take care of ethereal magical beings, but those tend to be rarer and more expensive than things that take out undead.

Sort of an apples/oranges issue, after taking the details into account.

PvK

Re: Best summon?
 

I'm a big behemoth fan myself, but if anyone here wouldn't mind helping me out: I have never got Ether Warriors (just never had that many pearls around), and have never cast Wights (since it seems I am usually saving up for Behemoth, or later: Tartarian Gate) -- are they that good? I just dont know them. Also, Graeme, you say they are identical to E.W. but slightly better (no enc) -- are they etheral too?

For higher level summons, I also like the Siege Golem and of course the Abomination (I play a lot of Tien Chi and if I ever make it to Conj 9, basically any CM can cast em at that point (might need a starshine skullcap). For mid levels, I like Sea King's Court (all of a sudden you get a really decent water force which is also ok on land), for low-mid I like Behemoth a lot, for starters I like even Revive King, just because it's free undead commander with decent leadership and I *think* he has a strategic move of 3, and costs next to nothing.

Oh, Faire Queen is also nice higher-level spell if you are not Van or Man or an otherwise really stealthy nation: you get a very decent glamour commander complete with glamour troop who can summon allies too. With equipment she can hold her own, too.

Re: Best summon?
 

I've never really liked the Damage over time spells, especially when it's on a weapon. When you have a dude in the frontline against Wights, the chances are almost nil that he'll get slain by Decay instead of the normal strength 16 + 6 weapon damage smack.

BTW, I thought Ether Warriors were Ethereal, which counts for a lot. Whereas Wights are 22 prot with 20 HP, think of that as having two Black Plate infantries who have 3 strategic move.

Re: Best summon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough. The decay special is probably most effective if the wights get in to hand-to-hand combat with something hefty, like a Titan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I like the fact that Wights have 0 encumbrance. That'll give them the edge over Ether Warriors in any long battle, I would think. Unless they're fighting an army with a lot of priests... Hehe. Just goes to show that they are both good, but in different ways.