SuperVans!
 

well i got curious as to what a van would be like with maximized bless effects in all magic paths so i modded up the allfather to see what would happen. Turns out the game doesnt let you get 9 in more than 4 paths at once, when i tried to mod that in it kept changing my pretender into a generic archmage with no magic. Ok fine, i suppose i can settle for 9F 8A 9W 9E 8S 8D 9N 8B... this once. Anyway, it completely eliminates all challenge from the game, of course, but its fun for about 45 minutes. They eat up everything....of course.

Re: SuperVans!
 

You can do that legally in a game. Or at least you can get closer than you might think. I havent tried to see how many 9's though I suspect 3 at least. I can get all 4's across the board with one or two 9's legally in almost any nation.

Re: SuperVans!
 

yeah... i was just curious to see what all 9's would be like, and then when i couldnt get that out of control i went for the next best thing. I bet thats possible...but would you really want to live with those scales?

Re: SuperVans!
 

Its a strategy. Not an easy one but possible. You could also take very low dominion and try to stay outside of its affects.

But of course that is the total extreme. A medium of some sort would probably be easier to use. Some nations have some pretty extreme scales they can survive for awhile especially if they plan to stay outside of it most of the time.

Re: SuperVans!
 

Just two level 9 blessings : water and fire make Vans almost invincible. They are (imo) really out of wack.

Yes it is possible to beat them. But they can conquer provinces at a frightening rate taking no losses what so ever.

They are the best bless unit IMO.

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's extremely hard to hae lvl 9 water and lvl 9 fire with Vanheim. Have you actually tried to get it and see what sclaes and pretender you would have to use?

I think it is more feasable to have either water 9 or fire 9. If choose between these two I would probably go with water 9, because it would strongely benefit all sacred units, not only fighters. Although other people may prefer fire9.

BTW I've heard that any "flaming weapon" enchnatment (fire 9 blessing, flaming arrows, etc.) work as additional 8 AP damage weapon, so you can have up to 2 hits with every swing of your weapon. Is it indeed so?

Re: SuperVans!
 

Vanheim isnt the best one for this apparently but its not impossible. Sure if you take all harsh scales and the Crone you can get 9/9/9/4 or a Crone with 9/8/4/4/4/4/4/4. Of course if you give up one of the 4's you could make that 8 a 9. Rotten scales yes but the idea is to play with maxxed blessings. Dom2 a balanced game and something has to give.

But even in moderation.... Take -3cold, -3luck and -3magic. Not bad if you dont plan to fight at home. Could even be defensive. That can get you 9/9/6 or 9/9/4/2 or 9/9/2/2/2/2 if you want to put her to work doing alittle searching. Alot will give you 9fire/9water like Ghost King or Manticore. Moloch will give you 9 fire, 9 water, and 5 somewhere else. Either the red or blue dragon will give 9fire/9water/4something. Throw in -1death and AllFather can give you 9fire/9water beside the 2 magics he starts off with. Also -1death will let the infamous VQ give 9fire/9water. With Phoenix you can even take back a scale point.

[ May 16, 2004, 23:29: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm interesting picture Gandelf.

I am playing Vans right now in my MP game, with Odin and 9 water blessing. I have water 9 air 3 death 3; order 3 sloth 3 cold 1 misfortune 3.


-3 magic for Vanheim? Ouch. IMHO their reseach sucks even with neutral scales, with -3 magic it would be virtually not existant. Sure, you'll be realying on rush and national units, but you have to have _some_ reseach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

IMHO sloth 3 would be significatly better than -3 magic in your picture, since production of Vans doesn't take many resourses anyway.


Also 3 Cold is kindof nasty (instead of 1 cold default) - vans armies require a lot gold to recruit and maintain, and -3 cold means -10% gold income, in addition to hurting not cold-resistant troops during the battle.


Since the supply for vans is not a problem (pigs) perhaps it would be better to take -2 Cold -2 Death instead of -3 Cold -1 Death?


On the other hand having 9 fire 9 water perhaps could put Vans troops on pair with best summoned troops. Just thinking about all these Vans and valkyeres, with 9 water quickness and protection and 9 fire blessing can put a smile on the face... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif And you still have very good flying SC with such setup. So do you think it would be worth it in MP game or is it too extreme?

[ May 17, 2004, 00:35: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well it is an 8 damage effect when you have flaming weapons from blessings, but I don't know exactly how that applies with regards to number of attacks, number of targets, effects of armor, etc.

Speaking of Vans, I saw one (unequipped non-prophet Vanherse) in a deathmatch with an unequipped Vampire Queen yesterday. The Van only lost by retreating first. I think it could have gone either way. The (uninjured) VQ was then defeated during the next round in one turn by the imps of a Moloch... bye bye VQ.

PvK

[ May 17, 2004, 00:49: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

I think going for maximum bless is a good strategy in a game where no one is expecting anything extreme. Play with the scales but the idea is that you are going to put all your reliance in blessed troops. The fact that Van can move them on someone as a total surprise would be interesting also.

If you take low dominion you should be able to operate outside of your scale effects. Especially with the checkerboard capability of Van. Even if your scales lowers your money, magic, fighting ability; you might be able to work around that. Fight outside your dominion area. Take a high-population province and tax it high but dont let your dominion climb there. Take a province for sages and use it for research.

This strategy is probably best used as a "secret weapon" for when you are playing people who think they know you and how you play.

Gandalf Parker
--
If you cant beat 'em, join 'em.
If you cant beat em or join em,
then at least try to surprise them.

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well worth it. Give it a whirl.

Hard on the scales? Sure is. You are going to have to choose between drain 3 and misfortune 3 ( imo ). If you take drain 3 pretty much forget magic ( which is a shame, you have blood magic ... *sniff* ) but since the van is going to be *so* good, imo, it's worth it. Oh and sloth 3 is basically a requirement.

Area effect spells own them I would guess. But against any type of normal or semi-normal troop they will stomp.

Re: SuperVans!
 

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

Quote:

Hard on the scales? Sure is. You are going to have to choose between drain 3 and misfortune 3 ( imo ). If you take drain 3 pretty much forget magic ( which is a shame, you have blood magic ... *sniff* )

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But if you take the crone her dominion is 1?
If its a larger map then it should be hard to build a lab in a sage province and have normal research there.

Re: SuperVans!
 

Nice PvK, and if memories serves me correctly, the Arena has no dominion, so the VQ can't be teleported to her home province.

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's ... that's insane! But ... I like it! I wonder if it would work. I bought her with a dominion of 5 ( did not check to see if there was a better buy out there ... probably is ).

Re: SuperVans!
 

[quote]Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

Quote:

Hard on the scales? Sure is. You are going to have to choose between drain 3 and misfortune 3 ( imo ). If you take drain 3 pretty much forget magic ( which is a shame, you have blood magic ... *sniff* )

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But if you take the crone her dominion is 1?
If its a larger map then it should be hard to build a lab in a sage province and have normal research there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, but the crone for pretender when you have Odin, who fits excellently with the rest of your units? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It's too painfull, I would rather sacriface a bit more scales but have powerfull SC.

As for sage sure, it would help, but you can't build your entire strategy on finding a sage province. What if you don't? I've had many games where I didn't find a single sage province, or found it too late to make a differense. Besides even with 1 sage province it's only additional 4 reseach per point max with magic scale at -3.


To Huzurdaddy: The choice between misfortune 3 and magic -3 is quite easy IMHO. Fortune is the first scale that I sacriface for most of the nations, in case of Vans its almost no brainer if you want to have high bless imo. Magic on the other hand - I am not so sure. For example I am cursing myself for not taking +1 or +2 magic in my game with water 9 bless already, since vans are so slow in reseach even with normal scales.

Re: SuperVans!
 

I don't think magic scale is so vital to research... you can research in some corner without your dominion, and/or use items that overpower the drain - a simple quill will cancel even a drain-3 dominion for research purposes.

PvK

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well you are going to need hell lot of quills to for all your researchers to compensate for you scales since it is worst reseach items out of 3 avalaible (3 reseach for 5 gems). You are going to have bunch of vans commanders doing nothing but forging new quills every turn. Also if you are going to make quell for all your reseachers, you can pretty much forget about other uses of airgems, which are so good for both forging and summons (Air Queens, Staff of Storm, bows of war, flying bots/carpets, displacement armor, etc. , etc)

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I never have...

Quote:

to for all your researchers to compensate for you scales since it is worst reseach items out of 3 avalaible (3 reseach for 5 gems).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I mentioned quills because they are the easiest to get, as an example of how easy it is to overcome drain-3.

If you're doing serious Construction, then of course the other items are better, and utterly overpower drain scale, even more efficiently.

Quote:

You are going to have bunch of vans commanders doing nothing but forging new quills every turn.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I'm not.

Quote:

Also if you are going to make quell for all your reseachers, you can pretty much forget about other uses of airgems, which are so good for both forging and summons (Air Queens, Staff of Storm, bows of war, flying bots/carpets, displacement armor, etc. , etc)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ya, but I'm not making quills for all my researchers, except maybe early on. That was just an example that I hoped would illustrate my point that drain-3's effect on research can be overcome (though with effort and cost, of course).

PvK

Re: SuperVans!
 

All right. I though you were suggesting using quells to overpower (meaning fully compensate) -3 reseach on my reseachers as a method to live in drain 3 for Vanheim.

But what other option do you have? As a standard Vanheim you can't have any death 2 mages for skull mentors, and very unlikely to have much death income or even more than few death 1 mages anyway, since you only have 1/7 chance to get a death 1 mage on your expansive national mages. And there are some must-have items on death scale that you will need for you SC if you are to compete in MP (wraithsword is a primary example, or your SC vans will just pass out, especially on water 9 blessing) (180 gp for none blessed reseach 6(3 on drain scale) gnome or 380gp on Van). And affordable ligthless latern (fire 1) is not available until you'll get at Con6, which is very long way to go for Vansheim on drain 3 scale. At the end it's almost like catch22 situation - "you need reseach to get reseach".

I think many other nations would do better than Vans on drain 3 scale, due to their better national reseachers and/or avlaibility of death magic, directly or through more than 1 random picks. Quills alone can only get you that far, as I think we both agreed.

[ May 18, 2004, 06:09: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dwarfs are not expensive. They are only 180 gold, which is exactly the right price to buy one every single turn. You probably should do this as well, since they are very powerful and useful mages, and you can never have enough of them.

Re: SuperVans!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dwarfs are not expensive. They are only 180 gold, which is exactly the right price to buy one every single turn. You probably should do this as well, since they are very powerful and useful mages, and you can never have enough of them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do in fact, almost every turn. But you only can recruit them in capital, which strongly limit their availabilty. And each would give you whooping 3 reseach on drain scale. So you would need to build tons of them to have meaningfull reseach, which means very high maintenence cost.

All I am saying is that Vanheim would be very painfull to play on drain 3, probably more so than most other nations, due to lack of cheap mages, very flexible magic pathes (1 random on capital only mages) and lack of death mages for skull mentors. Do you disagree?

[ May 18, 2004, 06:42: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

I happen to be very fond of the earth 9/ water 9 blessing. Earth seems much preferable to fire to me... built in reinvigoration for mages, a crapload of protection. With earth and water it boosts both and defense and protection wonderfully, leaving you primarily vulnerable to arrows....which air is uniquely suited to deal with.

[ May 19, 2004, 03:05: Message edited by: Cheezeninja ]

Re: SuperVans!
 

If you want to overcome base Van's research problems, why not just play Midgaard (or whatever the alternate is). The astral mages cancel bad events if you are taking misfortune, the Galderman is a cheaper quill forger, not to mention you start with 4 Air gems/turn. Your pretender should have the research clout to power up to construction 2 regardless of scales and then you pay 5 air gems/turn to cancel your drain.

You lose dwarves, valkries, boars and the most expensive van... in return you get a killer communion slave/fortune teller/mind deuler that can be pretty impressive in numbers. Add a Banner of the Northern Star and a big fat communion and yer in business. Not only that, but the Galderman is the cheapest 2-random mage you can buy, regenerates, can cast triple storm powered orb lightnings, and 1/4 can forge both Boots of the Messenger and rainbow armor to get around the drain scale. 1/4 of them are cheaper blood hunters for that nice storm demon/storm power combo.

Take 9/9 Vans, Storm Demons, a big fat (cheap) communion, a couple of Galdermen, a staff of storms, and a few SC Vans and it's good night Irene.

Re: SuperVans!
 

The one drawback of Midgard is that your Vans also become capitol only troops, which severely limits their deployment, especially with cruddy scales paying for a super bless. With stock Van, this isn't so much of a problem because you can build them at any fort, making Vans by far the most ubiquitous sacred troop. Midgard loses this advantage.

Re: SuperVans!
 

Good point... forgot about that.