Worst Summon ??
 

Topics a mirror of another topic in the forum right now. Looking for opinions of what people feel are currently the worst summons in the game.


My opinion... Eater of the Dead is one of the worst since the thing eventually goes independent plus the fact its not easy getting a 4D and 4A mage.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I dislike most Drakes, the worst being Cave Drake IMHO : expensive, slow, clumsy in battle, usually dying from exhaustion...

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

The drakes and the seasonal spirits.

The Last one are just a few units for a priencly price. Cost/use ratio is very low even in season.

Its a way better to invest in good SC instead of crappy troops. At least in the start of the game. Later there are better troops to cast then the spirits.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Personally, I love cave drakes for early Ulm expansion. They are awesome for soaking up indy missles, and cavalry charges. Even with a handful of afflications, their role as a pin cushion is unparalleled.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I must ask....

Does anyone actually USE Treelords?

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I have trouble picturing anyone raising Soulless or Longdead Warriors with a ritual spell, even if you do get 20 or 30 of them at a time. As a reanimation they're... well they're free. That's about all that can be said for them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I think the wort summon is probably the corpse man. He's not much more than a stronger soulless.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Now your going to set me off. Since anything "worst" or "weak" is my target zone. While others concentrate on testing "best" I like to test "worthless" and find new uses. I often can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Ya, treelords seem pretty bad. What's their purpose? 50 Nature gems for that? You could have 2 Tarrasques, or 2.5 Ivy King Lords or Lamia Queens or...

As for the cheaper summons, I usually don't use them unless my castle is being seiged and I have a lab with some casters inside it. Then I cast as many summons of any kind that I can to help defend. It has actually helped several times. A bunch of corpse men or ivy men or drakes may not seem like they'd help but when you are defending a castle every little bit helps make the enemy route.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

i'll summon treelords at the oak of ages, when they only cost 25, otherwise they seem far to expensive.

odd_enuf

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Though question to answer. There are a lot of units that I never bother to summon. That don't mean they are especially bad or too costly, just that I don't have strategies that need them. Out of the units I do use but find frustrating I would say that the Wyvern and the Corpse Man tops the list. The former is fairly expensive in the early game and lack staying power. The latter is perhaps best compared to mobile target dummies. Both have their uses but are very quickly rendered obsolete with a little more research or income.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I dislike those early game summons that only call one unit. It takes simply to lang / too many mages to produce enough of these summons to make them usefull. Take Vine Ogres as an example. They are good early game troops, however you need 10 nature mages with ivy crowns to summon 20 of them, which is the minimum for a decent force. Compared to the 2 earth mages that would give you 24 Clockwork Horrors, this is ridiculous.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok Gandalf, how on Earth (or water or nature) do you use Treelords? I mean when can the job be done by a Treelord as opposed to something else? What nature 5 caster is going to summon a Nature 4 caster who can't move? I understand the 250 HP, but immoble? I must be missing something here.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok Gandalf, how on Earth (or water or nature) do you use Treelords? I mean when can the job be done by a Treelord as opposed to something else? What nature 5 caster is going to summon a Nature 4 caster who can't move? I understand the 250 HP, but immoble? I must be missing something here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually non-movers work well for fighting my own bad habit of emptying my provinces. There are other non-movers I use alot but it doesnt hurt to have one that can also stay busy in mage duties.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

The Ivy Kings still seems a better deal then the any of the Treelords and able to match the Treelords magic with a single thistle weapon.

I believe to make the Treelords worth considering they should make one or more following changes:

1) Add more miscelaneous slots
(with all those branches should have 4 instead of 2)
2) Add more life, defense and/or attacks
(if they cannot move make them more of a threat for the province they're stuck in)
3) /ideas others can provide/

[ May 17, 2004, 20:11: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

While I think the basis for the values of a summon should not be based on unusual circumstances, as is the Treelords, I have actually used them once or twice now.

Basically, I didn't have high nature mages, except for my pretender and I had better things to do with my pretender than summon tarrasque. Additionally, i had a site with conjuration bonus but none with Construction. So I summoned one Treelord and let him summon tarrasque after that (note that one of the treelords is actually 5N, though I didn't get that one).

Now, i could have forged items to do it but it would have cost a good bit more.

I don't think it qualifies it as a good summons at all...but I felt obliged to mention the one case where I found a use for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For less gems you could have done exactly the same thing by summoning an Ivy King then given him the item(s) which raise nature magic. Even adding the cost of the forged items still makes the Ivy King cheaper.

[ May 17, 2004, 20:28: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

[quote]Originally posted by NTJedi:

Quote:

For less gems you could have done exactly the same thing by summoning an Ivy King then given him the item(s) which raise nature magic. Even adding the cost of the forged items still makes the Ivy King cheaper.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not true !

I had a 30 conj site. Thus, Treelord = 35 gems. 66% chance I need a 1 N enhancer. 33% chance I don't and I can start summoning next turn instead of forging. So average cost is 35 gems + 2/3rds of a moonvine (18 gems). Total = 53 gems.

Ivy King = 14 gems
Plus Treelords = 40 gems
Total = 54 gems + it takes longer to get to summoning.

Could have done moonvines + thistle mace but it would have taken even longer to get to the summoning of Tarrasques.

- Kel

edited some mistakes.

[ May 17, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

treelords are enchantments, not conjurations, so a conjuration site wouldn't help.

odd_enuf

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Doh, entirely true, my mistake.

Otoh, if I had an enchantment site (I didn't), wouldn't that make it even more clear cut sinec Ivy King wouldn't get a discount at all ?

- Kel

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. I've mentioned Podarkes, my elite Cave Drake flying carpet commando squad leader, before.

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Druids with Ivy Crown and Thistle Mace summon 2/turn for ONE nature gem, and have the upkeep of 7 infantry. A nature-1 mage with a treelord staff and ivy crown can bring 3/turn for one nature gem, and probably even less maintenance. Crank crank crank... Clockwork Horrors use a bunch of earth gems, and IIRC require magical leadership. Anyone can lead vine ogres around, and they are relatively tough compared to Clockwork Horrors. Lots of different pros and cons, but Vine Ogres are quite good, even in fairly small numbers, as long as you combine them effectively with other troops. The point is not to make an ALL VINE OGRE army... that wouldn't be so hot. However, combined as something ELSE the enemy must deal with, along with whatever else you have, vine ogres can make a big difference, especially because they don't use food, are fairly fast, and you get a lot of toughness for every spare ordinary leadership point you have.

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about a nature-2 mage using a treelord's staff and a moOnline bracelet from the arsenal this month?

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Corpse Man Construction is better when you have one of the items that makes the spell give you more corpse men.

Soulless are pathetic but still take effort to kill, can go underwater and can't be life-drained and are immune to various threats, such as poison (cough) and coral weapons (cough). They are not the worst summons by far, if you use them as part of a larger plan.

So far I only see people posting about units that they don't appreciate because they haven't figured out how to use them effectively.

Worst summon is perhaps summoning something ridiculous using a Wish.

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats how I tend to see it. And most of the game really.

I dont really knock such an attitude. But I do like to say that the way to excell in this game is to experiment and find what works for you. What lets you do the things you would do anyway. Other peoples strategys are fun to read but they dont just fit in your pocket like in other games.

Anyway, I highly recommend that anyone people avoid thinking of things as weak or useless. You will find that advanced players refer to them as "things I havent found a use for yet". That way you might test it again later. Or at least you wont be so stunned when you come up against someone who did find a use for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 18, 2004, 00:00: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Wishing for souless seems like a pretty useless summon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I've found a lot of summons to be substandard to the point of uselessness. The list includes:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spirits of the Wood: Hama dryads are weak, immobile, fragile, and expensive. The worst of all possible worlds.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Corpse Man Construction: 1 souless isn't enough of a return to justify spending a mage's turn, let alone any gems.</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

The real issue is whether or not you can use them effectively.

You can use Corpse Men effectively, but it's more costly than it's worth.

I have yet to play in a game where someone uses their Air Gem Income, with an Staff of Storms (or Lightning Rod) and start summoning Corpse Men.

The same can be said for Hama Dryads. I have never summoned them for their cost effectiveness or their special abilities; but on a lark.

Both of those units could use a slight change or adjustment in either +Path bonuses to make them more attractive to even use them situationally.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Corpse Man Construction is a level-one spell, and would be useful early on for someone who had a death-1 air-1 mage (and preferably, a lightning rod) to make an amphibious army (IIRC that they can go underwater like most undead).

It's not an impressive spell, but that's appropriate for a level-one spell, no?

I have used it in MP, but only because I had a Staff of Storms available which I didn't want to use for other purposes, and a death-1 air-1 mage without anything better to do. Seemed like a pretty decent way thing to do with a temporarily-idle staff of storms.

That's something to keep in mind when thinking about balance: there are many items which increase magic power level, and sometimes the powerful mages who use them, don't need them for several turns, while they do something else. So weaker mages can borrow powerful items without costing anyone anything, and can thus cast spells which might seem under-powered for the required magic path levels, but are quite good for a weak mage who is borrowing power-boosting items.

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats how I tend to see it. And most of the game really.

I dont really knock such an attitude. But I do like to say that the way to excell in this game is to experiment and find what works for you. What lets you do the things you would do anyway. Other peoples strategys are fun to read but they dont just fit in your pocket like in other games.

Anyway, I highly recommend that anyone people avoid thinking of things as weak or useless. You will find that advanced players refer to them as "things I havent found a use for yet". That way you might test it again later. Or at least you wont be so stunned when you come up against someone who did find a use for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those are some excellent points, Gandalf, and they illustrate what a great game this is. In many games that are only developed to the point of release and then abandoned by the corporation that paid for their development, there are only a few best strategies which need to be found and used to play competetively. Dominions gives a lot more leeway for playing with a wide variety of styles. Players can afford to find things that are useful to them, and to discard things which aren't useful, and still be able to play effectively. Also, there are many nations and situations where some techniques aren't very useful, or aren't available, which happen to be great when used by other nations, other styles, or in other circumstances.

PvK

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Personally I'd say Contact Draconians. Extreme cost and while they look kind of neat on paper they seem to die very easily in practice.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Much like, in other threads, where invicible != unbalanced...

Worst summon != Useless.

- Kel

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I agree with Gandalf here too, which is why I was loathe to post in this thread.
Maybe we can interpret "worst" as "most costly" or something...?
But I just had to post because someone just mentioned Draconians as a poor summon; but mixed in with a bog beast or two and/or other nice poison immune troops, and you have a seriously powerful troop. A bit of cannon fodder, 2 bog beasts, and some dracononians led by a dracochief is my idea of an excellent bang for your buck. Draconian chiefs can summon more draconians if he has nothing else to do, which I just love. They are perfect hit-and-run summons and can wreak havoc behind enemy lines. If you play Caelum, for instance, draconians tend to appear less interesting, but there you go.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Air Magic (like Fire) isn't a summon-path so Draconians are good enough. The queens are unique and the draconians are the best alternative. At least if you want to invest airgems for summonings.

[ May 18, 2004, 10:40: Message edited by: calmon ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I used Hama Dryads once to defend against Ulm, who was trying to storm my castle. Awe works well on low morale Ulmish troops, steal strenght negates armor, and eventually the Ulmish army routed. Of course, if Ulm had had archers the Dryads would've been toast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think vine ogres are bad. My Last game as Man used lots of them (30 Ogres + 70 Longbows for most armies), but again, summoning 3 of them is a very slow process... I like troll kings court. even though it might be too expensive, it is fast.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I concur! Best of/Worst of lists are a time honored American pastime! There's no reason I can see why people shouldn't voice their opinions about which summons are the worst. Gandalf may be right that no summon is useless, but some are definitely better than others. And if someone thinks that Ice Devils are a terrible summon because he's never figured out how to use them properly, then let him voice his opinion and benefit from the collective wisdom of forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I concur! Best of/Worst of lists are a time honored American pastime! There's no reason I can see why people shouldn't voice their opinions about which summons are the worst. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The symbol = means equal. The symbol != is programmer-speak for not-equal.

My real problem with the conversation is that there is never a "best" or a "worst". In any conversation on any subject. Especially in something that allows this much diference of opinion.

Maybe if it was "worst for combat" or "worst for Ermor" or "worst for cost" then it would be a debate. But a flat "worst" or "best" is going to be wrong (for someone, and right for others)

[ May 18, 2004, 17:41: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Hmm, well now that I look at it again I'm not sure what Kel was trying to say with "invincible != unbalanced." A sarcastic comment, perhaps. But I certainly understood the "worst != useless" to mean "worst does not equal useless." And that's the part I was agreeing with. Just because some folks think that that Corpse Man, or some Soulless, is the worst summon in the game doesn't necessarily mean they are saying it is useless. So why come down on us for registering our opinions?

I totally agree with you Gandalf that there is no such thing as an absolute "Best" or "Worst." Best and Worst are subjective terms. But for this very reason I took the question of "Worst summon?" to be a subjective one, and I think most everyone else did too. Is there something inherently wrong with our registering subjective opinions, on anything? Personally, I think not.

[ May 19, 2004, 00:23: Message edited by: Vynd ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

I'd say something, but then I'd be echoing Potatoman.

BTW, I've never actually used Celestial Servants. I mean, they might be good with an armor buff, but I'll be damned if anything but my Pretender can actually summon them without Emps.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't being sarcastic. I shouldn't have used programmer speak, that was my mistake. Doing it for a living, you forget where the line is sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I apologize for any confusion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's exactly what I meant. I was also trying to tie it to other threads where people went to similar extremes in saying something was balanced because there were possible ways to defeat it.

I actually have the total opposite view of Gandalf in that I think something is pretty much always unbalanced, something is always strongest and something is always weakest. I think that's true of simple games and the more 'deep' the game, the more likely it is to be true. That doesn't mean it's totally broken or even that anything is worth the effort to change. It's just the nature of the beast.

Some things may be more useful in different situations and I don't think any spell is useless but if you were to assign a number to 4 facets of a spell, 1) How often it is useful, 2) How strong it is when it is useful and 3) How strong it is when it isn't really it's prime time and 4) the cost....I think it would be clear that some spells are stronger, *overall*, taking all factors into account, than others.

You could point out how you can develop whole strategies around some spell that everyone thinks is the worst...and you might be able to make that strategy workable...and that's always fun...but it can still be the worst spell. It's just that you have developed a workable strategy that is focused around the worst spell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[ May 19, 2004, 02:09: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very well put, Kel, and also my view, although I've never found such excellent words to express it.

A background noise of small imbalances is not only not a problem, it's also inevitable and part of the colour of the game. Balance issues are the "spikes" that stand out against this backgound noise, and they are only a problem for people (like me) that care about the diversity of strategies that are available to people that play to win.

If there's a few balance spikes in the game, then it doesn't take long before they get heavily used, reducing diversity. As a game designer from way back, my goal has always been to remove the spikes, leaving a more-or-less homogenous, and therefore diverse, set of strategies available to the people that play to win.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Of course there is a best and a worst. But that doesnt mean its an imbalance. In some games that would be true if the balance is done by making everything fairly matched. But if a game uses rock-paper-scissors balancing then a worst or best in each Category doesnt mean it needs changed.

(oh yeah and Ive been balancing game items in mmogs for over a decade.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 19, 2004, 02:48: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. But what we (or at least I) have been talking about is the game of rock-paper-scissors-atombomb in which rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock and the atombomb beats everything.

The atombomb is a balance spike that should be removed to make the game more interesting.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. But what we (or at least I) have been talking about is the game of rock-paper-scissors-atombomb in which rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock and the atombomb beats everything.

The atombomb is a balance spike that should be removed to make the game more interesting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Considering their cost, atombombs are a terrible summon. Much better to summon thousands of scissors and fully equip them.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Hmmm... it seems to me that the 'worst' summon could be wish, because when the game turns into a wishfest of doomhorrors and clams it suddenly loses alot of its dimensions, and correspondingly its fun. The worst could just as easily be the best as well, if its overpowered. And im not saying it is, i have yet to even complete a MP game, i'm just throwing that out based on what i've read on the message board. Worst does not have to equal most useless.
And give thanks for games like this with so many nuances and factors that its actually a subject of debate as to what the worst units are, and in what situation. I've been playing this game pretty steadily for a few months and i havnt even used all the summons yet. Its wonderful.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An easy fix for that is adding a random variable so that when someone wishes for a DoomHorror there is a percentage chance the DoomHorror attacks the territory where it was summoned. Or a percentage chance the DoomHorror arrives with battle afflictions. Each of the ones I listed should have a 20% chance which would make the game more interesting in my opinion. Other variables could be added as well.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

Summon fire drake is pretty crappy. 11 firegems for a slow low range imprecice artillery unit. Most of the times the thing doesn't hit anything, ends up in melee and gets killed by a couple of militia.

Rather convert the 11 firegems in 165 gold.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

That seems to be the case with most fire magic summons: They're dullards, very much like their water magic counterparts. The difference is, fire gems are useful: You turn them into gold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire Kings are very nice sommons though. Summer Lions at their peak monthes are pretty good as well, although quite expensive. Still they are the best of 4 seasonal spirits IMO.

The trick is to employ them in mass and in the right place in the right time. I've had several important battles where the concentrated flank charge with <hold/attack rear> lead by 15-20 summer lions sealed the fate of large and crytical struggles. And unlike other and better bung-for-the-buck summons you can get Summer Lions very early.

In general fire magic is certanly not the most valuable of magic types, but it has its usses. Flambeus are terrific weapon against popular SC types such as banelords, wratihlords and even unfamous VQs. And if you have extra fire gems to burn <forgive the pin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif > you can always forge cheap ligthless latterns, than can give a very signigicant boost for your reseachers. Also when you have life and death emmergincy you can indeed turn your firegems into gold at best rate. Especially so if you got alchemic in the random event or can recruit one as indep. mage.

Re: Worst Summon ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Summer Lions with the nature spell protection or mass protection brings their protection from 0 to 10 !