Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

I see a lot of the complaints about "game balance", and I notice that the two most promminent voices (that are usually opposed) tend to be Zen and Norfleet.

I'd like to see a Best of 7 series, that pitted Norfleet's "unbalanced" strats against Zen and his wisdom of all thing Dom....

No restrictions, other than that it be a relatively small map that can 1v1 effectively.

I'm obviously not either of the two "contenders" so I can't speak for them... but I hope they consider this, as a new method of debate...

I'd like to see this happen, with an observer who could write up Battle Reports... I'll do it myself, but I'm not such a great writer...

What say you?

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We're opposed? Both of us go "Meh" at the stuff that people are complaining about. That's not very opposed to me.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

I'd like to see Zen v. Norfy if for no other reason than Zen is likely to be one of very few people on this forum that might be able to defeat Norfy's very well-developed Ermor strategy. At a minimum, such a match would be HIGHLY educational to read about. Both players have a deep understanding of many subtle aspects of the game. Each of them has a large ego, neither of which bruise easily, and both are reasonably mature (age having nothing to do with it) so the competition will be pleasant and polite (something that is getting increasingly difficult to come by).

Zen v. Norfleet would be a major public service (and spectacle). All in favor please speak up and be counted! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Personally Id word it alittle differently. Id say Norfleet and Zen should play in the usenet group. The crowd that have been in dom since the first days. I dont think 1-on-1 shows the best of Dom. Id like to see a mega game of the usenet crowd from comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic with Norfleet in it.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Hey, Arryn's alive. Haven't seen you in ages. Figured you might have died. What happened to your AAR?

I'd certainly be open to the idea of a large game of that sort....but Zen has admitted he would rather gouge out his own eye than play in such a thing. Our preferences for game types are a little too dissimilar for such a thing to be satisfactory to both sides.

Please note: If anyone is making such a mod featuring prominent forumites as units or pretenders, Zen should be given the "lost an eye" and "lost the other eye as well" afflictions, on account of having gouged out his eyes rather than playing such a thing with me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 17, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't, my father did. I only got back to my home yesterday.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have my condolences then.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Coaxing Norfleet into playing a small 1v1 game might be more of a challenge than playing him.

Also, Norfleet's tested and true strategy is not condusive to 1v1 trials.

If I have time I will make my next longstanding (8+ Player) game with Norfleet and anyone else who would like to play with such popularly contended abusive strategies like: Playing with a VQ, building a Clam of Pearls, or Building alot of Castles.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reason why I suggested 1v1, was that I feel the "politics" are pretty hot right now... so in an 8 player game, how many would like to see Norfleet and his strat lose? Would that be fair?

But I mainly hope that you two end up in an MP game (of however many players) that gets written up... THAT would be a great service to the Dom II community. You know, into the minds of great strategists and what not...

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

A writeup would have to be done by somebody else. My senility and overload of games tends to preclude me from remembering what the hell happened more than a few turns ago...particularly if the game runs at a slow pace. I certainly won't remember when or what happened, other than hilights, after the game ends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A neutral observer would be ideal for this task... though I'm not sure how it would be acomplished... would "master password" do it? Or just sending a basic summary?

Do we have any journalism majors in the house?

That would actually be pretty cool... to stlye an AAR between you two as an article...

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

A Karan game with 8 players seems to be a decent way to compromise the different playstyles involved here.

If Zen and Norfleet agree to this, then we come to the next question: How are the other players picked?

People who don't have a strong feeling either way as to whether VQ/castling is "exploitave"... I don't want the game simply to be "gang up on Norfleet"...

But obviously skilled players are needed... players who would be angered by the fact that Zen and Norfleet are the headliners of the bill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This NEEDS to happen.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

i like to join game..but im all most newbie but you can only come better if you can play whit the best

now my friends start to be easy to kill..so need new face to kill and learn more of this great game

but..are you only looking old and realy good players?

i realy like to see how "the best" plays so i can learn

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

If you are going to have a game with 8 players, you may not want to try and use it to prove/disprove balance since there will likely be disparity between skill levels of players inviolved.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing writeups of 'serious' games played by skilled players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I agree with you there regarding "Balance" issues... but the chance to have a "Clash of the Titans" fully reported is too rich to pass up. What all us lesser players could learn from such an exchange would be priceless...

I wonder whether we could convince the Devs to participate in this match?

Would be Epic, but in a nice way.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Or doing all three and playing Ermor. That would sound like a Norfleet's standard enviroment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I don't think I would be able to play in this game, but it would be very interesting to watch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 18, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

It is very easy to play Ermor. I am playing with them 2 hours / day, I tried out all possible strategies with them.
How can I play on the internet?

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Ermor is very easy to play, versus AI. AI can't really handle them well. You might want to try playing AGAINST them for a change. Just build lots of priests. After that you might want to consider what will happen to Ermor in multiplayer in where most are afraid of you, want to kill you before you depopulate half the world and know that the best way versus Ermor are priests. Of course, if you happen to play the normal theme they will propably find out you are not the snack they came for...

To play in internet, you can either Play By E-Mail, in which you send your .2h file to a host and he sends you a .trn file after all players have played their turns and he has hosted the game, or by letting the game automagically send the files. You have to have a host somewhere, of course, and know his IP-address and the right port. That's about all I know about that way to play MP...


Oh. And you haven't tried out all the strategies available to Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

I think the idea of a documented high-level game is an excellent one.

However, just as good of an idea would be a game that paired new players with old. Then the old players can assist the new players if they need it, and new players can see how old players play _from inside the game_.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Well, I believe an 1on1 game will be nice to see if strats are balanced, broken or what you prefer to call them ...

Surely if there're more than Zen and Norf playing, I'd be glad to be inside but I'm not very skilled ... however I fear the challenge beetween them could be heavily modified from other player intervention.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am not sure MP Dom2 1vs1 game would be very interesting. The reason is that I suspect there would be too much of "avalanche" effect. I think what will happen is that people would spend a lot of hours expanding and building the nation, than the fate of the gme will be decided in one or two large battles, since once will start to win, each next battle will be increseangly more easy to win than the previous one. With multiply players in MP other players can always interfere to prevent the wining nation from becoming too strong due to its starting victories, and by doing this severely limiting "avalanche" effect. In 1 vs 1 game there will be no such limitation, especially so on small map.

This is just a theory though, I've never tried 1 vs 1 game myself and is not very interested to try. But I suspect it to be the true, based upon my MP Dom2 experience.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

So what ever happened to this little gem of an idea???

I'm sure I'd learn a lot from a report of this calibur!

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

This idea has been shelled, because I've found out that Zen is actually one of the Great Evil Ones. Plus he seems to always be busy.

[ June 23, 2004, 17:04: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Yes, I am one of the great evil ones. Norfleet is under the assumption that anyone who thinks that anything that has been patched that sees improvement is evil, since he doesn't see it that way. ;P

Plus I am busy. Though I forsee in the next few weeks a slot opening up as far as my time for another longstanding, turn a day, consume my freetime game and as promised I will invite Norfleet plus anyone else who wants to join within the parameters of the game to go ahead and play.

[ June 23, 2004, 17:31: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well then get Arryn(sp?) in there too so he can write up a well written report for us as the game goes along!

So being that you're a Great Evil One, Zen, do you get more points to spend on your pretender in *your* games? Or is that not a question that should be asked here in public? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

No, as a Great Evil One I must eat children, devour worlds and cause mayhem and destruction wherever I roam.

I believe Norfleet refers to me as a Doom Horror.

Edit: Also Arryn is a she, not a he. I thought I'd mention it so she doesn't have to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 23, 2004, 18:25: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't make me post links to your pro-vq threads zen lol.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Post them. I still stand by what is said. Popular opinion has nothing to do with balance and will continue to do nothing with balance. Hard Numbers and Thematic reasoning are what have to do with Balance.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Argh, my apologies Arryn! I mean no disrespect.

As for you, Zen, your diabolical schemes and consumption of smaller beings is heretical! You must pay for your crimes!

...

...Go get 'em Norfleet!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Actually, Zen v. Norfleet reminds me a lot of Nazi Germany v. USSR: two evil empires at each other's throats. It's oh so hard to cheer for either one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fortunately for me, both are very nice people -- when you're not playing against them, of course. In games, they are devious, sneaky, ruthless, and downright nasty. In other words, they make excellent gods. There's much to be learned from them. Once you get past the facade of bluster and male ego. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Hey arryn, are you the same from the Apolyton civ 3 forums?

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, and you don't want to compete against your peer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. It's because I've known that Zen is clearly associated with Illwinter, beyond any reasonable doubt. While it is normally mandatory policy that I don't play staff, I was willing to suspend this on the grounds that Illwinter was supposed to be different.

They are not.

Therefore, I do not play staff. He may be a cool guy and all, but rules are rules.

[ June 24, 2004, 04:10: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is he staff? I thought he was just a dev fanboi lol.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, all of his comments suggest that he is associated with them. That says "staff" to me. For this reason, and in light of Illwinter's recent behavior which has forced me to more critically evaluate the matter, such a game is no longer a viable option.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AFAIK, he's not staff. He is a moderator here, and does perform other duties for them, however. It's not like he's made it any big secret or anything.

And, Blitz, you really should work on presentation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Er, the fact that he's a moderator and IIRC he's a playtester isn't enough for you to tell he's affiliated with them?

Without pay, it'd be hard to say he's 'staff'. I guess it depends on your definition. If you define it as 'performs duties for them', you don't need to make insinuations here or there; his name listed as one of the Moderators should be enough, shouldn't it?

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, though I did play Civ3 for many months after it first came out.

I'm the Arryn who was in E&B (though I was best known as Sharia, an Officer in the Executives of Infiniti guild in the Andromeda galaxy, playing a L124+ Progen Sentinel), and I was also in SWG beta (and best known as Sharia the armorsmith after release).

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was done tongue in cheek, and shouldn't be taken as anything else. I like Zen, even if he does back the devs on everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I confused you with Arrian, someone who has a similar writing style. Hi anyway lol

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's hard to tell whether Zen actually believes what he says, or whether he's required to be their loyal stooge under the terms of his employment contract.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Takes a lot to make me actually lol when reading forums... and I thought only I noticed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

All in good fun Zen

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Well, the entire "we own your soul" thing tends to be standard boilerplate when dealing with companies. I used to believe Illwinter was different, but now I see there's no real evidence to support that.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nooo .... that sounds bitter and you are too cool to be bitter! Say it ain't so!

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not too cool to be bitter. I make being bitter cool.

Frankly, I've always been this way. I just thought Illwinter was different. Turns out they're not, to no great surprise. Hey, if it sounds like a rat, and smells like a rat, go figure.

Personally, I'd have been happy to let this thing DIE, but SOMEBODY *glares at Torlin* had to dig this thing back up.

[ June 24, 2004, 07:36: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

Actually I don't back IW on every conceivable thing that they say. Because as we all know, everyone is human and can potentially make mistakes. What I do back is the fact that this game, which these forums are for, is singular in the fact that it provides so much more than most other games of it's genre and it has evolved from it's release to now to a much better game, no matter whatever biased opinion that certain players feel because they consistantly have problems with anything being changed from it's original form and take the MMO mentality of everything is a "Nerf" and nothing is an upgrade.

I do however, totally and unflinchingly back the proper context which thoughts and ideas are delivered *to* the Developers if you wish to initiate change. And it is there that most of the conflict arises where I must "back Illwinter".

[ June 24, 2004, 13:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs, I can assure you that the majority of the nerfs those games suffered through, during and post-beta, did not improve the game, nor were they felt as "upgrades" by 99% of the players. I can only recall a handful of nerfs that actually worked well to improve game balance. The rest simply lessened (drastically) the enjoyment of the game for those players with characters directly affected by them.

So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing.

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

Thanks,
~The Meal

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cross Platform Compatibility and Adjustable Battle speed do not fall into the fix Category then? Or the fact that most of the things that are 'fixed' were discussed before the game was released as something that should/could/would be fixed in the future? (Elemental Armor being one of them)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's always going to be less fun for those who never had an issue before a change. Some people have fun playing with sticks, so when people start playing with paintguns suddenly it's 'no fun' to them and they feel 'wronged'. It's a perception issue. The current trend of fixing things that need to be fixed (I.E. Themes, bugs, inconsistancies and in part, balance).

If Clams and Castles were nerfed I might feel the same way, but as it stands now, all I see are people who were burned by games in the past pushing those feelings on a game that hasn't. Negative perception will always be just that. If this was Atari or Troika, you could have a track record of keeping things broke, shipping out unfinished product just for the cash, then leaving it virtually unsupported and without communication.

I personally very little faith in developers (in general) on a released product because of disregarding mentality. But once a developer shows me they do commit to the things they promise I am okay with their effort and willing to cut them a little slack. Others may not feel that way, they may feel that their 49.95 or 64.95 or 39.95 entitles them to make business decisions for a design team and the game they purchased and got their money's worth out of demands to be fixed on their terms or not fixed as the case may be. I just happen to not be in that particular Category.

[ June 24, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also I do believe MMO's are a different kind of beast. An altogether bigger, uglier and in a different Category than I feel Dom2 is in. Not saying I haven't played them, on the contrary, and I know exactly what you are saying and has been said for every MMO past and previous, probably can be said of MUD's as well.