Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

This topic is about those 2 pretenders.

They're both unique for Vanheim ... but I see Vanheim playing only with Odin Allfather ...

The Asynya is pretty themathic, but I've never seen it ...

I don't play usually Vanheim, but I suppose or Allfather is too strong compared to Asynya (well I believe for 125 points, he's very cheap, or at least he has good stats combined with a mid-low new path cost), even if Asynya costs 50 points less, she hasn't glamour, hide, fly, has a single starting path with a new path cost of 50 compared to 30 of Allfather.
And Allfather is starting with an affliction, that can be healed, so its base stats will raise too in late game.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

RIGHT! Allfather is too strong! He is beating
up my poor Vampire Queen in her own domain, so
he is OBVIOUSLY too strong. NERF THE BASTARD!

NERF! NERF! NERF!!!!!

WHAAAAAAHHHHH!

Ahhh... Let me catch my breath before I start
calling for nerfing Nataraja, because once we
get rid of the Allfather, he is next.

Or is it the ghost king, the carrion dragon, or...

[ June 02, 2004, 01:14: Message edited by: Tuidjy ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Now now, Tuidjy, be fair... He didn't actually say that the Allfather should be made weaker. Just that he's way better than the Asynya. I can't remember the Asynya's stats well enough to judge how right Cohen is. But I don't know how much it really matters. There are lots of nations where one of the national pretenders is better than the other. And there are plenty of non-national pretenders that are as good or better than most of the national pretenders.

Now if Cohen wants to argue that the Asynya is so bad, for its cost, that there's never a reason to use her as opposed to the other options, that'd be a little different.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

In one corner we have Odin Allfather, who traded
his eye for knowledge, who, astride Sleipnir,
will lead the Aesir on Ragnarok. The top dog of
one of the greatest and best known pantheons,
about whom more stories are told every day.

In the other corner, we have Asynya. The, ah,
well, another Aesir. No, not the Catholic
saint... someone else. Very.... uh, thematic!

Whom do I chose... Decisions, decisions :-)

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

I think Asynya is plenty good. She looks like a slightly better fighter than the Allfather, and the usual retarded logic is that everyone needs an SC pretender or they are doomed (not that I buy that, but oh well). If you want a pretender with Air and maybe another path who also fights well, she looks good, and saves points compared to Allfather. Allfather has some other abilities and can have more paths for less, though. Apples and oranges, allfathers and asynyas...

They might be more popular since so many people have a secret inner desire to be Odin... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Well, I don't think I've ever seen anyone pick one. To be honest, it doesn't seem to fill any new niche: It's an air-2 semi-SC, with relatively poor path flexibility when compared to Odin. If you're trying to build an SC, Odin can actually be built more cheaply due to his less expensive paths, despite his base cost. Odin's host of innate abilities also tilts the scale in his favor. If she shared the Allfather's Glamour ability, she'd be a contender for the same role, only on foot instead of mounted, and thus retaining a feet slot, but she doesn't have this - even then, without flying, the feet slot would wind up being used for that, and she isn't as immune to armor encumberance as the Allfather, due to not being mounted.

Obviously, therefore, Odin outclasses the Asynja in the SC department.

As a blessing or high-air chassis, on the other hand, we compare the Asynja to the Titan, which is also available, for 125 points. A quick review of the numbers, however, reveals that the Titan can actually provide the Air-9 blessing at LOWER cost than the Asynja. Both are capable of combat, although in this configuration, neither is really a tweaked super-SC. The Titan also has the benefit of being lightning-immune, which is a fairly nice bonus for an SC, as lightning is really quite painful, and the Titan can indiscriminately fling shockwaves and commit acts of Wrathing without worrying about electrocuting himself.

So, given that the Asynja appears to be caught between the Allfather and the Titan, and is outclassed at both roles, with the Titan being roughly equal in combat, what's the selling point? She doesn't seem to fill any real niche.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Shes dead sexy.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Perhaps Tujdy has missed some others my Posts where I said that VQ should have his new path cost to 70 points about ... and should have even some more nerf. However it seems Devs have already take care of the vamp on the next patch.

If I propose something, isn't for advantage myself, but for game balance in general.
Full stop.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Hmm, I'd not always give my SC winged shoes. More like boots of quickness, which will widen even farther her skill advantages. I expect the way to make her potent is to get her fighting skills quite high.

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cohen, the Tuidjy misses little. This is exactly
my point. You had a bad experience with the VQ,
and you called for a nerf. Now you are having a
bad day with a non-nerfed VQ against the
Allfather, and you are calling for another nerf.
This is a slippery slope.

I was against nerfing the VQ. Not because it was
not too cheap for its power, but because the land
at the end of the nerf road is a desolate one.

Yes, the Allfather is one of the best pretenders.
He is also one of the most expensive. He has one
major weakness. He is missing an eye, and Vanheim
has a horrible time fixing that. GoH, chalice,
etc... are very hard for Vanheim to get without
help. Heartbinding an arco priestess is the only
way I have managed it.

And of course, if you are unlucky enough to lose
the other eye, and it happens, you are left with
an extremely expensive, totally useless gimp.

I do not think the Vampire Queen was that much
out of balance. I do not think that the
Allfather is out of balance at all. I think that
ninety percent of those whining for nerfs are
people who cannot accept that the reason for
their losses is their lack of skill.

I _know_ that nerfing the Allfather will, sooner
or later end up in a whine for the nerfing of
the Ghost King, Nataraja, or Carrior Dragon.
Hell, I like the Naga and the Prince of Death
a lot, so they may come under the knife as well.

We are playing a game about Gods and Heroes.
If you want to play a game about national troops
duking it out, I will probably love to join.
But stop trying to impose your vision of what the
game should be on the rest of us.

House rules suck, but this game is great enough to
survive them. No game can survive a nerffest.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Asynja should cost less. No more than 50, in line with other giant humanoids like Son of the Son, Daughter of the Land, etc. Of course, they are probably too expensive too...

[ June 02, 2004, 17:14: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The daughter of the land is probably exactly the right cost, since she also generates two water gems per turn. The other 50 point pretenders are probably a little overprices, but this mostly comes from having to bump them up to 6 or 7 astral, or from their tendency to rout thanks to their bodyguards.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Tuidjy,

Your post has given me a chance to test both my new avatar and the formatting in my signature.

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Tuidjy - it seems that you are repeatedly criticizing the "call for nerfing the Allfather" (not an exact quote, but a general summing up btw). However, no one that I've seen on this thread is even talking about nerfing the Allfather other than you. This thread started as a thought-provoking question regarding the Asynja (sp?) vs the Allfather and has never gone in the direction of nerfing the Allfather - yet you keep arguing against nerfing the Allfather - who are you arguing against?

John

P.S. In reply to the initial post that suggested choosing Asynja over Allfather you posted this completely over-dramatic reply to a non-existent call for nerfing:
"RIGHT! Allfather is too strong! He is beating
up my poor Vampire Queen in her own domain, so
he is OBVIOUSLY too strong. NERF THE BASTARD!

NERF! NERF! NERF!!!!!

WHAAAAAAHHHHH"

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Sounds like maybe he's been traumatized (or at least, made sick with sarcasm) by all the many various Posts about "X needs nerf and Y is useless".

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Ok, so you think I am paranoid. Let see what
makes me think that Cohen is, indeed, calling
for a nerf.

1. From his signature: 'The enemy of the SC and
all the overpowered and unbalanced things.'

Self-proclaimed paladin with a mission.

2. From his first post: 'Well, I believe that for
125 points, he is very cheap.'

He is not discussing improving Anysya, is he?

3. From his follow-up post: 'If I propose
something, isn't for advantage myself, but for
game balance in general'

If he were trying to make Anysya viable, it
would be enhancing the game, not balancing it.

4. Instead of denying that he was calling for a
nerf, he goes: 'VQ should have his new path
cost to 70 points about ... and should have even
some more nerf.'

For those living under a rock, here is a proof
that he believes in nerfing. And by the way,
anyone would believes that the VQ needs 70 point
paths and 'some more nerf', would not know
restraint if it bit him on the nose.

5. And of course, there is Cohen's age long
habit of calling for changes that will make
Dominion II fit his ideas of 'how it should be'

It seems to me that Cohen's behavior follows
this pattern:
1. Badly lose to a tactic
2. Call for a nerf while using the tactic
3. Badly lose to something else

For example, Cohen was one of the biggest
proponents of a VQ-nerf (and proud of it) His
pretender of choice, during the outcry, was
Anya, the Vampire Queen. Poor Anya was getting
killed on average, hmm, about once per turn
on Pascentia, by, you guessed it, the Allfather.

By the by, he was mad castling as well. So I
think that he will call for a nerf to Vans and
archers, now that he's lost 4-5 castles to them.

So when I see him kindly concerned about poor
Anysya's popularity, I think I see where this
is going.

Hey, Norfleet may have a patent on paranoia, but
I've obtained a license.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Tuidjy,

I don't understand your hatred of "nerfing." It's quite strange. Who cares if you improve a given game element of reduce a game element it amounts to the same thing. He is attempting to achieve balance.

It's just a matter of expediency. If you have a choice of nerfing one game element or "buffing" 20 then clearly you should nerf one. It takes less time to implement and it is less "moving pieces" where things could go wrong.

You would think that you were playing an MMORPG or something where you had "invested" time in your character and would be "hurt" if you character was nerfed. But you are not. You are playing a strategy game where how you did with your SC does not count for a hill of beans in the next game.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But in this situation, where the Allfather is comparable to other pretender choices and Asynja sucks so bad there is no reason at all to pick her, then nerfing would be a mistake, right? We don't need the Allfather nerfed. We need Asynja buffed a wee bit or reduced significantly in cost so we might actually end up selecting her.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: Spelled Asynja's name correctly.

[ June 04, 2004, 13:30: Message edited by: Inigo Montoya ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the Allfather is one of the best pretenders.
He is also one of the most expensive. He has one
major weakness. He is missing an eye, and Vanheim
has a horrible time fixing that. GoH, chalice,
etc... are very hard for Vanheim to get without
help. Heartbinding an arco priestess is the only
way I have managed it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are forgeting the little option of dying Tujdy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif It fixed the lost eye all right for me, together with nasty Chest Wound. (Although it was not actually a "lost" eye, for Odin knew very well where and why did he left it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Depending on your Pretender setup and avalaibilty of pristst, the dying with AllFather might not be a big deal to you, especially if you invested most of your points into some high lvl 9 blessing, which is a popular option when playing such a bless-friendly race as Vanheim.

I would certanly not reccomend such radical method to everyone, but it is something to keep in mind. As a good doctor said : "The dying is good for yor eyes" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure that she has the highest base precision of any pretender chassis, which makes the combination of high air magic and thunderstrike quite impressive.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. If precision + Air magic is what you are after, Virtue is the better selection. Virtue has a base precision of 15 whereas Asynya has only 13 base. To futher slap Asynja in the face, Virtue costs 50 whereas Asynja costs 75.

Basically, she sucks and her cost is too high. Either buff her, or discount her.

EDIT: Spelled Asynja's name correctly.

[ June 04, 2004, 13:31: Message edited by: Inigo Montoya ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Asynja (note spelling) is a much better fighter than a Virtue, though, and doesn't tend to die from one hit of Elf Bane.

I kind of like Asynja... though I wouldn't object to her getting a boost or a cost discout.

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but if you have her scripted as a mage to spam spells, she will die anyway because the spellcasting AI is too dumb to quit casting spells and fight, or cast spells and quit trying to fight: You have to script it to do one or the other, and it won't be able to switch functions to fit the battle.

As such, if you're using the Asynja just to lob spells from the back of the army, the increased durability is no asset, and innate armor is actually encumbering and counterproductive to spellcasting. The Virtue has better precision.

If you want to build a monster SC, the Allfather provides this at reduced price. If you want an A9 bless on a chassis that can also fight, the Titan provides this more cheaply due to his A3 start. The Titan is only one point of precision short anyway.....does one point really make that much of a difference, especially as he makes it up with his higher starting air magic, for a precision boost all the same, and when you take it up to A9, precision is high enough to use lightning bolts to snipe with anyway?

Once again....where's the niche? In any niche you can try to slot the Asynja into, there's a pretender that seems to perform the exact same taskset far better.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The virtue is pretty useless in a combat role, since she only has ~26 hitpoints. You can use her as a mage, but you'd probably be better off using a Vanadrott for the same role in that case.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to pick things out of context, but I've been wondering about this for a while now. I mean, while Virtue is indeed lacking in hitpoints and so on, I've found her good as an early game combat support.

The thing being, Awe +6. 0th circle spell Air Shield to protect her from missiles, a cheap armour in case a hit gets through, send her with your armies against indies like on turn 3. The opposition just stands there drooling at her while your troops close in for the kill. The secret of survival isn't high hp, prot or def, but the fact that no-one will hit her. Of course, provinces with high morale troops must be avoided, but as a such her aid in early expansion has been priceless.

I'm not arguing that the Virtue isn't quite useless, after all most high-morale units turn her into kebab, but I'd just like a second opinion on putting her in combat use: doable or just sheer madness? She has performed well in my tests but it may be just pure luck.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

The Virtue is in the "Declining Viability" Category.

Awe, as it is, is a very potent ability (At +6) especially against Indept and non-high morale units early in the game.

As the game progresses, she becomes more and more fragile because her stats are based around Awe+6 being effective against a good chunk of the game (Anyone with lower than 16 Morale). She is regulated to using only her magic to survive (Which is acceptable because she her one path is very good and has some offensive and defensive spells that make it more bearable). If the mid-late game didn't use elite units that have high to mindless morale, or undead were not counted for their actual morale value but as a base. Or the holy aura of the Virtue burned them as a Fire Shield before they could touch the Virtue then that would make the Virtue much more survivable.

But as it stands now, any Death 2+ mage can kill a Virtue with the aid of some fodder.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

Are isn't such a great protection.

Virtue too I believe should be a little improved, it should be a very powerful fighting angel too ... at least as counterpart of Moloch as fighting stats.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

The Virtue is fairly cheap, has air magic and good starting dominion. IMO it doesn't need to be improved, though perhaps Awe does.

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

It seems that I will have to stand up in defence of Virtue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

First of all, she isn't meant to be SC, and most and if not all critics directed at her look like people expect her to take whole armies by herself.

Here is some pros that most seem to forget; she costs only 50 points for which you get a flier with great starting dominion (4). She is also excellent for high scales strategy - example:

Machaka with Virtue - +3 Order, Production and Growth and +2 Heat, 7 dominion strength, castle and level 5 in air is quite good and gives Machaka another magic path they are weak in (and allows easy Flaming Arrows + Wind Guide strategy) while allowing you to crank troops and mages at insane rate. Later on you will be able to amass large numbers of troops that she can protect with mist warriors spell.

Early Awe + Mistform CAN be used to beat independents; later Storm + Wrathful Skies is much better for her. Like Allfather she is a flier and can attack key provinces fast, but unlike Allfather she comes with lightning immunity and has no need to cast protections or wear items to protect herself from her own spell. With boots of speed she can cast both spells at the turn one.

Due to her flying/air skills, she can be used to support advancing armies and cast mass protective spells (like mist warriors) fast and without terrain restrains.

Of course, she has weaknesses, but undead are hardly one of them since she comes equipped with Flambeau that is designed to take them out. Of course masses of them will kill her but so will VQ as well. Key is to keep her mobile and out of the melee while doing carnage from afar. For the price she has lots of uses but I wouldn't mind her getting buffed up to the combat level of Moloch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Couldn't help myself, had to help a lady. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll have to disagree with the first part of this unfortunately she has to go into 'combat mode' to use her Flambeau and repel doesn't use the weapons special ability. So yes, undead are not a weakness if you choose to go into 'combat mode' only against undead (if she can kill them before they whack her). Personally I'd like her to be *more* effective against undead than a VQ or any other pretender (seeing as she is the archtypical Angel). I agree that being pumped up to the Combat Level of a Moloch would not be a bad or overpowered thing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't mean my arguements to say she was not worth her cost, but that she was. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif She just falls into the Category that most Early Combat Pretenders fall into, good in the beginning but their advantages are nulled as time goes on. Think "Dragons".

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but if you have her scripted as a mage to spam spells, she will die anyway because the spellcasting AI is too dumb to quit casting spells and fight, or cast spells and quit trying to fight: You have to script it to do one or the other, and it won't be able to switch functions to fit the battle.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm confident I have been quite able to script mage/fighters to cast some spells and then go into combat.

Quote:

As such, if you're using the Asynja just to lob spells from the back of the army, the increased durability is no asset, and innate armor is actually encumbering and counterproductive to spellcasting. The Virtue has better precision.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, the durability is still an asset, especially against flying attacks on the first few turns, or arrows or other ranged threats that can pick off a Virtue or other lightweight caster.

The armor could be counterproductive to casting, but it isn't glued to her. If you want to use her as a caster for a while, there are cheap items with no encumbrance which can replace her fighting gear.

Quote:

If you want to build a monster SC, the Allfather provides this at reduced price.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure your right, as I expect I have never even tried to build something which you would qualify as a monster SC.

Quote:

If you want an A9 bless on a chassis that can also fight, the Titan provides this more cheaply due to his A3 start. The Titan is only one point of precision short anyway.....does one point really make that much of a difference, especially as he makes it up with his higher starting air magic, for a precision boost all the same, and when you take it up to A9, precision is high enough to use lightning bolts to snipe with anyway?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I expect you're right that the Titan makes as good or better a lightning-bolt-sniper. However the Titan is 50 points more expensive base than Asynja, and Asynja is a better fighter (with hand weapons) than the Titan.

Quote:

Once again....where's the niche? In any niche you can try to slot the Asynja into, there's a pretender that seems to perform the exact same taskset far better.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The niche I think I would try to use is "middleweight SC/caster and limited bless provider". This is perhaps an entire playstyle that doesn't fit what I take to be your "go all the way for one thing" approach. That tends to be my play style though. Be good at more than one thing; and I like units with good fighting skills. Piled with items that build on the skilled foundation, I think she might be able to take out quite a few "problem" threats, as well. Without dumping all that many points in one place.

I don't claim my approaches are the best, but they suits me, and I think Asynja has her advantages.

But ya, as I said before I wouldn't disagree if people gave her some other ability, increased something, or cut her cost to 50.

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to pick things out of context, but I've been wondering about this for a while now. I mean, while Virtue is indeed lacking in hitpoints and so on, I've found her good as an early game combat support.

The thing being, Awe +6. 0th circle spell Air Shield to protect her from missiles, a cheap armour in case a hit gets through, send her with your armies against indies like on turn 3. The opposition just stands there drooling at her while your troops close in for the kill. The secret of survival isn't high hp, prot or def, but the fact that no-one will hit her. Of course, provinces with high morale troops must be avoided, but as a such her aid in early expansion has been priceless.

I'm not arguing that the Virtue isn't quite useless, after all most high-morale units turn her into kebab, but I'd just like a second opinion on putting her in combat use: doable or just sheer madness? She has performed well in my tests but it may be just pure luck. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You people and your "(almost/quite/utterly) useless)" really need to find another adjective! You just mean "risky" or "sub-optimal because there are things with other qualities that I prefer", or are wrong, more often than not.

26 hit points is too fragile for combat? Gee, Pons my Black Lord hero on top of the hall of fame would have something to say about that. So would the majority of my other heroic fighters.

Virtue can be quite tough if you give her equipment, buffs, whatever. Not "optimal", though. The reasons I haven't chosen a Virtue prentender tend to be thematic, and that her fighting skills aren't particularly good, and that you can summon Virtues later on that are comparable.

PvK

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">26 hitpoints too fragile for combat my ***. Tell that to the VQ drivers out there. We're fighting it out on 23 hitpoints. A Virtue is a perfectly serviceable light battle chassis. While certainly not up to the specs of a super-SC, she's quite serviceable and resilient for someone with a mere 26 HP. A few items can easily remedy most of her more annoying deficiencies, and her magic, while slightly inflexible, is certainly top-notch: It's hard for most units to penetrate a high-level mirror image, and mistform is a great HP multiplier: When you consider that, say, A natty with his measly protection, is being slammed for 10 points of damage out of his 80-odd HP, and can thus sustain maybe 9 hits before biting it, the fact that a virtue can soak down 26 normal hits due to mistform is a plus. Of course, you can slap Mistform on the others, too, but that'll cost you points in buying more air magic: An out of the box Virtue already can do that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They're not as easy to kill as their meager 26 HP would suggest....after all, when the game was first out, the VQ was discounted as a noncombatant as well. The amount of snivelling that has since surfaced has rather disproved that idea, though.

Ultimately, hitpoints are irrelevant: It's not how many hitpoints you HAVE, it's how many hitpoints you rake in vs. how many you lose: Your HP pool is simply a buffer. A larger buffer is nice, but not strictly necessary.

[ June 04, 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A couple of death 2-3 mages have a good chance of killing her with raise skeletons as she doesn't have 0 encumbrance. She also is vulnerable to windride. Her mistform will be defeated with only a few points of damage as well due to her low base hitpoints.

[ June 04, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops, what have I done. I hereby duck and cover behind the excuse that my country has only two official Languages (Finnish and Swedish) to explain my lack of vocabulary. As an evidence I present you the fact that I've never asked what "Något gick fel" means. Rereading my earlier post I indeed did a mistake of using the phrase 'useless' in the final paragraph, which was not my intent. But my hope lays in the fact that it might be evident from my earlier text that I meant more like 'to be used with caution, keep away from too tight places and children under age 6'.

But, seriously, what I tried to say earlier, was that actually I've been surprised by Virtue's efficciency. At first I dismissed her from straight-out combat role based on (pretender-wise) lowish hp, picking her for the high dominion, complimentary magic and cheapness. But when I got into a situation where I had to take her into combat I was very awed by the awe effect. I mean, name some other pretender you could place in front of 20 charging heavy cavalry in very early game? Even dragons are bound to get an affliction or two, but Virtue seems to be able to pull it off without a scratch. Relying to awe just makes the way she plays out very different from every other pretender. IMHO, of course. (and it'd seem some people think along same lines, which is always a relief when it comes to these things)

Just standing there with no-one willing to fight here, very angelic. Probably not as powerful as in Mikaelish style angelic, but some lesser angel. (Of course, that divine aura burning undead, that would be... well, my vocabulary fails me again)

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Slapping on a quick reinvigorator is enough to cure that problem, or Summon Earthpower, or any other light-reinvigoration options: The chassis, while not 0 encumberace, is fairly low-enc and has manageable fatigue with a few inexpensive items.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nothing a Robe of Etherealness or Wraith Crown can't fix. They're available earlier than Wind Ride is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, if you have something there that can hit hard enough to punch through mistform, but it's not like the VQ doesn't have the same problem.

My point isn't that the Virtue is one of the top-of-the-line SCs, but that despite her seemingly low stats, she can pull the job off adequately early game where it counts....and you can't argue with Wrathful Sky's effectiveness as a damage shield!

[ June 04, 2004, 20:09: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I concur. Thanks to low-level spells like Air Shield, Mirror Image and Shockwave I've found the Virtue to be a very effective territory grabber in the early game. And thanks to her high dominion base her hit points are usually more like 52 or above when she's ready to move. You just have to remember that at some point her role as a pocket SC will have to end, hopefully when that happens she'll have some big devastating battlespells in her grimoire.

[ June 04, 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops, what have I done. I hereby duck and cover behind the excuse that my country has only two official Languages (Finnish and Swedish) to explain my lack of vocabulary. As an evidence I present you the fact that I've never asked what "Något gick fel" means. Rereading my earlier post I indeed did a mistake of using the phrase 'useless' in the final paragraph, which was not my intent. But my hope lays in the fact that it might be evident from my earlier text that I meant more like 'to be used with caution, keep away from too tight places and children under age 6'.
... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry atul! Non-native English speakers are excused. "Useless" means "without any use" in English. Some native English speakers have been exaggerating and using "useless" when they mean something like "not the best" or "is not something I'd choose".

PvK