Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

How do you think the game should be changed to prevent the AI domino surrender effect?

Should the mechanism used to calculate the score be changed? Should bases/ships count less? Should some ships benefit the score more than others?

Should the AI diplomacy routines require you to do 'x' amount of damage to their planet(s) in addition or in place of a much higher score?

How about this? Do you think the AI should require that you have at least visited a system with an AI player's planet in it before it immediately surrenders to you? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Should the diplomacy routines be modified so that some empires will NEVER surrender to you?

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

Em, I've not had much luck with surrenderrings :-\ Only once or twice have I actually forced an empire wtih only 2 or 3 planets left to give in.

Also, I think the mega-evil declare war thingy should be abolished or changed. Why should they go completely insane when they find out our empire is 5x bigger than theirs? I think thats suicide personally!!!

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

If you started out even and now have 5x their score, they aren't going to catch up. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif It may be suicide, but they sure as hell aren't going to have a chance without ganging up on you...

As for the dominoe surrender affect, if it was changed so you needed 50x their score instead of 10x, everything would be fine. Either that, or a minimum number of turns/years before they would consider a surrender.

The current problem is that they'll give in within the first few turns, they start slow, and that they can't fight tactical combat worth a damn. If you fixed these, the surrender issue becomes a non-issue, because you wouldn't be able to take out 15 AI with a few escorts in 20 turns then. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

If you dont like the mega evil empire setting - go into the DATA folder and change the setting file and change:
AI uses Mega Evil Empire to False.
_____
Ram Ship Target Modifier Percent := 100
AI Uses Mega Evil Empire := True
AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 500
AI Human Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 170
AI Computer Mega Evil Empire Score Percent := 250



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 17 February 2001).]

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

A large component of the domino surrender is the ease with which you can 'blockade' the AI homeworld. If you send an escort (which *might* not even be armed) to their homeworld and press 'End Turn' 30 times without ever engaging the planetary defenses, then the game considers you to be blockading their homeworld. This costs the AI about half their score without much trouble and just about doubles how quickly you can make the AI's surrender to you.

I didn't try it with an unarmed ship. If you can blockade with an unarmed ship, I would like to see that changed. I *guess* it makes sense that you can blockade without engaging the planetary defenses. That would make sense from the naval perspective where the enemy might be able to utterly destroy your warships if they came into range of gun emplacements in a city. But if you waited just outside the range of those gun emplacements, any ship trying to get out of or into the harbor could be harassed by your fleet.

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 17 February 2001).]

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

The AI_Politics file controls how willing they are to surrender, doesn't it? Just edit these and make an individual setting for each empire. The "warriors" like the Jraenar or the Sergetti should never surrender. others can be more or less willing. ALL of the "neutrals" are the same because they use the default file. Maybe it's time to create distinct personalities for the neutrals, too. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

I've played quite a few games of SE4 and I just realized something. I have never noticed a computer empire surrendering to another computer empire...

Has anyone ever seen this happen?

just a passing question.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

Hmm... Baron Munchausen's comment about the Sergetti reminded me of something in my Last game start. It *seemed* like the Sergetti didn't immediately surrender upon encountering their first glimpse of one of my ships. I *thought* my score was easily 20x theirs at the time. But whereas the Last 5 or so races all capitulated upon learning of my empire's existence, I actually had to send a ship to the Sergetti homeworld before they realized the error of their ways. If I'd had weapons on that ship, I just might have destroyed their planet rather than accepting their unconditional surrender. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

(Okay, so I had one tiny little CSM I on the ship. But if I'd attacked, their planetary defences would have laughed at my escort)

Any ideas why the Sergetti would require a greater than 10x score?

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

I had a similar experience with a neutral in a recent game. I had planted a couple of colonies in his system, on worlds he could not colonize, and he was constantly attacking them. I didn't want to hassle with having to invade so I just demanded his surrender -- figuring I'd get it automatically because of the score difference. Nope. Only when I finally sent in a fleet and attacked/blockaded a planet (not even the homeworld, though) did he surrender. I can only guess that MM has added some "minimal amount of damage requirement" to allow a surrender so you can't establish diplomatic contact and then demand surrender immediately. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

I think a minimal damage requirement would be great. But I'm not sure anything like that is in place. There were several races to whom I sent surrender demands as soon as I encountered their ships. Most of them surrendered before I even entered a system in which they had a colony.

The idea of a minimum turns until they will surrender sounds interesting. How many turns do you think it should be? 20 turns? 50 turns?

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Raynor said:
Any ideas why the Sergetti would require a greater than 10x score?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sergetti and the Amon'krie have their politics file set so that they will only surrender if you have 50x their score instead of 10x.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A large component of the domino surrender is the ease with which you can 'blockade' the AI homeworld.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question about blockading is, if they only have one planet, and you blockade it, why do they immediately lose all of their resource production?

I can understand that if you blockade other colonies not being able to get the resources to the homeworld, but so what if you blockade their homeworld. All of the resources and space yards are right there together. Shouldn't they be able to use them.

After a few turns of being blockaded their population happiness should drop to the point they are rioting and then production should stop, but not immediately.

Can they not build any ships because the accountant can't get to the galactic bank and back? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

IMHO, blockading the Homeworld should have no effect on resource production, only on happiness.

As it is now you can conquer the ai about as fast as you can get from one end of the quadrant to the other.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

Well, I think that blockading ought to be a bit more detailed than it currently is. Blockade running would be a joke if there was only one ship in orbit of the whole planet. Especially if it was a slow ship with no weapons. A blockade should be a percentage penalty based on the size, speed, and firepower of the orbiting fleet. And I agree, if a race has only one planet a blockade should do nothing at all.

As for shipyards, if the planet with a shipyard is blockaded, why can the shipyard draw on empire-wide resource storage and harvesting to construct ships? Shouldn't a blockaded world be limited to using only its own resources for construction?

But the biggest problem is that the score is calculated in a rather poor manner, so the AI thinks it's way weaker than it really is, and rolls over and plays dead too fast.

It also doesn't defend itself very well. I don't think you should be able to sail up to a homeworld and blockade it without the AI putting up a decent fight. Maybe giving out fighters as a starting tech.

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

You guys have made some good points on the current problem, which could be alleviated by fixing any one of the following areas.

1. Blockading a planet when an empire only has that planet shouldn't have any affect on its production.

2. AI should fight better in tactical combat, or build missile ships earlier, or both. Basically, you shouldn't be able to take out a frigate and escort with just an escort with one missile weapon.

3. Have a local reservoir of resources to draw off on during the blockade based on production at the planet - when the bloackade is removed, the total should be added to the global total.

(whoops, more later, back to work) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

My mod fixes this, so it makes it a lot harder for an ai race to surrender. You can also set in the ai_politics file, whether the race surrenders by the true/false line, and also the score line underneath.

By the default values, the whole ai_politics file is pretty generic and has a lot of problems.

I will continue to update my mod, but I would appreciate it if, some of you guys could try it and tell me what you think. Thanks.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

I have decided I don't think making the ai use missle ships will help eliminate this problem. I can still beat any ai with equal CSM tech level by simply timing my shots right.

A better solution would be to go back to the way SEIII made you research to get CSMI. If it was not a default tech then I wouldn't be able to use it so early. No matter how good I am I am going to take damage in a DUC to DUC combat. Sometimes will even lose if the ships are equal.

This would allow the ai some time to build up more colonies and or research CSM and PD weapons. At the very least he could build more ships. Then when I do come at him with CSM's he won't crumble to the weight of my mighty CSMI single escort blockade fleet. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

When you blockaded the AI homeworlds, how many battles did you end up fighting with your CSM1 equipped escorts?

I only fought, perhaps, two battles. The rest of the time, I moved my ship into orbit around homeworlds with NO ships defending. If I had to go up against the planetary defenses, I would surely have lost. But by simply pressing 'End turn' thirty times in a row, Voila! I was blockading their planet.

So, I don't think it would matter if everyone had to first research missiles before they could use them or not, I think the root problem is that you shouldn't be allowed to blockade the planet until you've won a battle in that sector--i.e. defeat the planetary defences.

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

I wasn't saing that making CSM a non-default tech would eliminate the problem, only that making the ai use CSM would not help.

Usually I had faced at least one ship on the way to their homeworld. If it were DUC to DUC and I were damaged or destroyed before getting to blockade them it would be a moot point.

I don't think anything we do short of eliminating surrender completely is going to help the races unlucky enough to start out right next to me. But if we make things more difficult at the start, just slow me down some, the races on the other side of the quadrant should be able to build up economically enough to give me a challange.

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 20 February 2001).]

Re: Preventing Domino Surrender?
 

Increasing their use of CSM early AND making them smarter in tactical would help somewhat. There's just no way I should be able to take out a frigate and an escort with just an escort and not take a hit.

I'd also like to see the AI ram with non-combat ships when they can't get out of range of the attacker's weaponry, and the attacker is a smaller ship. I do this all the time when it attacks my colony ships with an escort. The odds aren't good, but they're better than sitting in the corner and doing nothing.

Well, the patch info mentions some improvement in tactical combat for the AI. I'll be interested in seeing if the fix resolves some of the issues we're having.