Death & Blood a little borked?
 

These two paths SEEM to have some of the best summons in the game at somewhat low research levels.

As examples: Devils, Banes, Wrights.

All exceptional summons for their cost, all at low tech levels.

Now if these paths were the ones that had poor higher levels summons then I would say that makes sense from a balance perspective.

However they also have excellent higher level summons as well, ex: demon lords, ghost riders, tartarus gate.

Finally, even if they had just some of the best summons but had poor combat magic then I would say : "maybe they are balanced."

Now it is true that blood has pretty bad combat magic. But death has excellent combat magic. Eg: Life Drain, Soul Vortex, raise dead. All excellent.

I don't get it. It seems like death and to a lesser extent blood are just better paths than the other magic paths. Is this intended? Perhaps I am missing something?

[ June 02, 2004, 19:06: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

I haven't played a lot of Blood Magic. But I have noticed that most of the powerful Blood summons require significant skill in both blood and some other sort of magic. This seems to be less true for other schools of magic.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

One of the reasons why ERMOR is so strong is because death magic is very powerful. In my multiplayer games we've Banned the ghost riders spell simply because it's way too powerful for its low cost. Many gamers on the forum are using the castling strategy because of spells such as this.

[ June 02, 2004, 19:35: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

Death summons are unusually vulnerable to Dust to Dust, Wither Bones, Solar Rays. Some also suffer from a tendency not to play well with others (cold aura, disease spreading) and this is especially true of death battle magic (area life-draining / disease-spreading / decay-causing tends to be indiscriminate, for instance.)
Death magic also lacks friendly fliers, has few mounted units, provides fairly limited forging, and is very bad at providing other benefits such as countering other magics (no domes or ward spells, say), providing mobility (Stygian Paths is late, hard and dangerous), no troop enhancement spells et al. It's quite strong at what it focuses on, but hopeless at others.

Blood is similar in degree of focus. It's great for summons, especially in winged summons, but lousy at most other tasks.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're absolutely correct, Air is a much weaker and less useful path all around. DOWN WITH DEATH AND BLOOD.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

And Astral ... don't forget about astral .. you may get your path level 5 pretender killed by a lousy shaman !!

oh, wait, does it make it too strong or too weak???

Damn, nerf it anyway. All of them...

[ June 02, 2004, 20:15: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

All the death and blood summons can be banished or destroyed by the many things that bLast the undead.

Against opponents with enough cheap priests or whatever, these things are not so tough.

PvK

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

IMHO:
Death is pretty specific in its combat usefulness. Unless you have undead army, its combat usage is fairly limited. Even its early combat summons are not too great unless cast by a powerful mage - a DD mage can only summon a few skeletons before colapsing; useful, but not too great. Blood is even more specific in combat, as it's very exhausting and require the presence of frail blood slaves (ever had any blood slaves left on Abyssian mage after combat?).

As for the summons, I find most of the early ones to be rather cost-ineffective in mage time, all the way until you get to higher levels of research, when other paths get good summons as well (well, maybe not water apart from sea trolls). I mean, 5 death gems and a DD mage's turn for a single wight is not all that great. I would rather put him to research so I can access the more useful summons sooner (which is a shame, because I almost never get to use the early ones that don't have high-end counterparts, such as the drakes).

The rest of it is fine and balanced IMO. You cannot really cast powerful globals with death unless you're Ermor, so you have to have something that is in favor - and this is where remote summons come into action. High blood rituals are also either risky, or summons. Yes, the late summons are very powerful, but that's the essence of blood anyway. You have flame storms and shimmering fields on one side, and heliophagi on the other.

[ June 02, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah scarcasm. Cute. Yes I understand that Air has a number of very powerful spells. As a matter of fact many people have commented that air combat magics are perhaps too powerful or do use another word abusive.

However the "problem" with air is not that most of the spells are busted, but rather that a few are very efficient (eg: Wrathful Skies, Lighting Orb ). While I think that the problem with Blood and death is more pervasive.

Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

Death summons are strong... until they get banished, which is a cheap, very effective, and common weapon which anyone with holy priests can use, without any research or gem investment.

Blood summons are almost all the same way (a bit more resistant, but less numerous), and having to use masses of blood slaves for everything is a strong limitation.

PvK

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blood is almost entirely a summoning school, so it's not that surprising that it has some of the better summoned units. The various level 4 blood summons are actually quite expensive in both blood slaves and mage time. Each casting requires both a level 2 or greater blood mage to cast, plus another blood mage to find the slaves for every single casting.

The death summons are powerful, but not _that_ powerful when you consider their weaknesses. The commander type summons can defeat many normal troops, but this also requires that you put a very large amount of gems into them.

Nature magic also has very good summons. Lamias, for example, are extremely hard to kill, and can be summoned in very large quantities at a low cost.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tartarian gate is only really useful if the nation is able to cast and keep gift of health, and has a large enough nature gem income to cast gift of reason every turn. If that's the case, then they have about 20+ nature gems per turn, which should be able to cause a fair amount of damage. The various demon lords are powerful, but also require a major expenditure in gems to make it safe enough to actually use them in combat.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Death has excellent offensive combat magic, but almost no defensive capability at all. Most of the death spells only act to overcome the extreme fragility of most undead troops.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well certainly they are entitled to their opinion. If you want to use Abusive for "Extremely Useful for a Wide Variety of Playstyles" then I guess. If you wanted to say that "It's not Castling it's Air Magic that's the problem" or any other number of comments, you may. However, since Air also has a wide variety of uses, Earth, has a wide variety of uses, even Nature, Astral and gasp, Water and Fire have a wide variety of uses. Then I would say that you don't need to take the customary rout of "Need to be nerfed" but "X (insert the one magic path you don't get routinely owned by) might need more versatility/power/spells that make me lose often.

Which combat magics would those be, by the way? Specifically? Or is it only one combat magic that you are thinking of in particular that has, since Dom1, been considered 'abusive'.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IF: there is a problem. HOW: Is it pervasive and DOES: It come at a cost that is equitable to it's power and FINALLY: What nations and how does this impact the balance of those nations who rely on said magics.

Quote:

Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

It is an inevitable course of the game that people will feel ANYTHING needs nerfing because of their own personal reasons. Most of which stem from their inability to use them, cope against them, or abuse of them to win games.

Edit: It seems to me the learning curve hasn't quite hit the "number of gems to feasibly create an 'abusive' enviroment" for a number of people.

[ June 02, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

I do see a number of Posts extolling the virtues of many air combat magics ( orb lighting, wrathful skies, storm to name a few ). I have seen many Posts extolling the virtues of both death combat's summons and their combat magics. I have seen many Posts which explain in mind numbing detail how to gain a blood economy and how to exploit, utilize if you prefer, the very powerful summons in blood.

There are few mentions on this board titled: "How to dominate all with the raw naked power of Nature!11!."

I simply notice a trend on the Boards which is that people comment frequently about spells which are in the death and to a smaller amount in the blood domain. In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics. Thus I began to wonder: is this simply play style ( or post style ) or perhaps is there some fundamental imbalance between the different schools of magic?

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suggest that you might want to ask Piratejam about just how effective fire magic can be.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nature is a support school, and can act as a force multiplier for your troops. It can be an extremely large multiplier under the right circumstances.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is probably because death and blood have more summons than other schools. It's not surprising that you see more of them when there simply _are_ more.

Death is a powerful school of magic, but then, so is nature.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it.

[ June 03, 2004, 00:27: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, just because their are not very many Posts about them, suddenly they are not 'effective'? Perhaps, but I don't see it as so. I rarely see many Posts at all about any school being 'extremely effective' and detailing how and why but more of "What do you think is the Best" Posts, which Blood and Death fall into categories of with certain aspects of their magic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is true but just because something has virtues (Air, yes, having many), does not mean it's overpowered. Storm is extremely effective, I don't think anyone is saying counter to that. Wrathful Skies is extremely effective. Orb Lighting, with the appropriate setup, is extremely effective. It is very well rounded and has one of the most universally useful abilities (Flying). I would say that Air is probably the best of magics taken as a whole. Does that mean I think it should be nerfed? No. Certain things may need to be modified (Wrathful Skies for example) but not the entire school. Death is the same way. It has a unique aspect of having summons that have a universal trait (No Encumberance with Equipment) so it is more versatile what you can and cannot put on their commander summons. It also holds a very useful ability (Immortal). Does Death stack up to Air? No. Does Death have the capability to be abused in the right hands? Definitely.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is because it's a mind numbingly hard concept to grasp for certain Groups of people, and the understanding of having a universal income of "Blood Gems" no matter the sites/provinces (in general). So in order to better help people understand they post ways to use it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Part of it is a fundamental imbalance in the magics and nations that use them. Certain nations must, in order to be competitive, use their Magic to it's fullest potential. Thus relying extremely heavily on one school (Blood for Example, or Death/Air) as the mid/late game progresses.

Astral is the only school that this might not be the obvious case. Only because the Summons are not price-friendly but the Item Forging and Combat Spells are extremely powerful.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

I'm with Zen.

The latest thread popularity is a really bad indicator of what is good, bad, useless, overpowered or broken in the game. This game is full of tons of stuff. Some of it is very powerful in the right circumstances, but not without costs and trade-offs. I've been playing Dominions since months before D2 came out (playing D1:PPP), and there is still tons of stuff I haven't seen, let alone used or figured out strategies for.

Some stuff can be hugely effective without being flashy. Death and blood magic tends to be flashy and dramatic. When expected, it also tends to evaporate in a cascade of cheap banishment attacks. Nature magic can win battles and wars without even being noticed. For example, getting steamrollered by a huge army... because there were some commanders with nature items allowing many more living/eating units to exist in a single location without starving, perhaps even marching straight through dead Ermorian provinces with no supply problems.

No strong water magic? Hmm... got strong underwater units? Got clams? Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness and boots of quickness?

PvK

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

I'm sure that you have played a number of on line games. Usually it starts with one or two Posts about something being "darn good." Then perhaps a discussion about it being "overpowered." This claim is almost always followed by counter claims supported by the assertion "with more experience you will understand." Sometimes the clamour dies down for a while. Then after some more time there are further Posts about how it is "imbalanced" this time more vocal. This is followed by even more people ( perhaps the very people that are exploiting the imbalance ) posting that "you simply do not see the counters" and perhaps illustrating a few ( difficult to implement or fraught with their own perils ) counters. The clamour dies down then. Then finally a good percentage of the gaming population starts doing this "abusive" strategy, and people come to the Boards en mass to say it is broken at which point the developers start to take a look.

It's a pretty classic cycle. Now to be sure there are plenty of people who yell "nerf" without proper justification. However I would say that, in most games ( perhaps dominions2 is the execption, time will tell ), the claims are justified more often than not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps too effecive given it low research and casting requirements given that it is a battlefield effect spell that Lasts the duration of the battle. But I don't know if I want to get into specifics.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again some may argue that it is too effective.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Note this is exactly what I said about air. I see only a few problematic spells in air.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certianly only SOME spells seem to be out of wack. However the number of spells which seem out of wack seems great to me. I could be mistaken.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are astral's combat spells really that superior to death? Is Slay Living/Enslave Mind for example superior to life drain? I don't know. In some cases yes, in some cases no. I would call it a push to be honest. The astral magic seems superior against normal troops, while life drain seems superior against SC's. Some would argue that normal troops are useless hence anti-normal troops spells are useless. To those people life drain is far superior.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clearly Borked! Moderatly easy access to exponential growth == bad IMO!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a common misconception. Sort of like how unsung heroes are still heroes, even if people don't know or not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sheep are vocal, does that mean they are right?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it is classic that the most vocal try to initiate change, but is more often unjustified than justified.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Evocation 6 is Hardly "Low". If you don't want to get into specifics, then don't say things are unbalanced. Especially when it was my Example of an obviously superior path of magic that wasn't as you claim 'borked'.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These people would be uninformed and aruging without basis. If Orb Lightning is too effective Fire Darts should be looked at prior to Orb Lightning.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt you see is what can be termed as 'problematic'.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed you could, especially if you can't point out any one spell. At least NTJedi pointed at the one really abusable, low cost spell in the Death Path that may be an issue if it needs to be changed. Previous to the Last patches, you could also have said Tartarians, but as it stands now, there is nothing in Death that gives it any sort of advantage over 5-6 other Paths. You seem to not be able to see or choose not to see the very real limitations of Death.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let me give you a list of what half are called TIDE TURNERS for Battlefield spells and the other half are the near creme of the crop individual buffs (Only a few others take priority).

Mind Duel (Limited but incredibly effective)
Stellar Cascades
Astral Fire (Includes Fire)
Nether Darts (Includes Death)
Astral Tempest (Army Killer Use Returning)
Body Ethereal
Luck
Battle Fortune (Realistic in most Games)
Doom (Army Killer)
Will of the Fates (In line with "Best Buffs of the Game")
Resist Magic
Astral Weapon (Like to kill SC's?)
Astral Shield (Like to be a SC?)
Astral Healing (The Unsung Hero for Living Armies)
Antimagic (Never leave home without it)
Communion (This is totally useless, don't do this, right?)
Paralyze (Neutered, but still extremely effective)
Soul Slay (Kill's dead, remember your Penetration Items)
Vortex of Returning (Game Winner)

Also the only Battlefield wide "Life Drain" spell is Soul Drain, all others are single target, no area effect spells. I'll leave you to guess what paths Soul Drain is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And watch those Lifeless units eat you up. You need to get out more.

To sum up: Seems you've been playing with too many people who only use Lifedraining SC's. This is absolutely no surprise to me as it is the easiest way to make a SC and make them effective. But they have very real weaknesses, not the least of which is an entire class of units that cannot be life drained. And for every Wraith Sword or Blood Thorn on a SC, you're going to see a Antimagic Amulet and a Luck Pendant/Luck Coin with it. If not; then that is a disregard for their gems and they're planning on having a very real loss of gems by doing so.

[ June 03, 2004, 04:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

Don't forget Air buffing spells!
Mistform and Mirror Images (which usually in combo with the +3 Def of Quickness become very deadly, in fact I believe Mirror Images should be easier to break, perhaps removing one mirror image each time it's struck since the warrior realizes he's hit an illusion, and all mirror images if the real unit is struck). Air Queen are the strongest of Elemental Lords, ethereal, flying, mirror images by default (2 out of 3 iirc), can trapeze.

Death is superior to Astral in direct combat magic, since Death spells can't be stopped, while astrals are countered by magic resistance (easily improved by amulet of antimagic).

Astral however is a little more versatile, cause covers all aspects, but it most is beaten by others.

Blood is good for summons, Astral Corruption could be nice, but most of the battle spells require blood slaves in battle that can be easily arrowed, killed, or even burned by your heat in case of Abysya (very sad this aspect ...)

Nature is good too, except for their unique summons, that I believe should be a little "stronger" ... I mean, their problem is = move, and they cannot teleport, only Faerie Trod which is expensive. They can't too raise a lot their magic skill since they've 2 misc slot, so a Druid with a treelord staff can easily get 4N and having too the summoning vinethings bonus.

Water I believe is very nice, but only for a strict selection of Nations, water nations especially.

Fire I believe it's too strict, and not very well working. It should be the best battle magic, for direct damage, but it isn't since it could be resisted, while Death can't. Holy Pyre shouldn't be resisted by FR, if we consider the damage is HOLY and not FIERY, or however it should be affected at maximum by a 50% FR. It lacks of a generic good global. Everyone has the "gem creation global", and fire has 2 specific global, a hot increaser (specific for hot nations), and an anti undead.

Earth path is the best defence by "common" damage. Not very good IMO, except some cranking spells like Forge of the Ancients or Wizard Tower!. E bless isn't very good too ...


Summary of my mind:
Well obviously I believe Air is the most powerful, followed by Death.
Blood is fine, with his strenght and weaknesses.
Nature and Astral are fine too.
Water ... is nice too, quickness + breath of winter are very very good.
Fire is fine except for Holy Pyre as I told.
Earth should have 1 or 2 more defensive buffs, one that could be nice is a MagmaSkin, combined with 1 or 2 ranks of fire, a sort of hot breathe of winter. Or a whirlwind of sharp stones swirling around the caster.

I'd like to see in next patches some new spells with mixed paths.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Little Hint. There is only one spell in Death that can't be resisted. And it's a single target, 100 precision spell with 14+ Damage that requires 4D to cast. It is also Alteration 5. A more damaging spell Bone Grinding is actually a better use unless you are dealing only with a Life Draining SC that has no defense. And an AMA will only protect you from some things. You can still be Soul Slayed, and Paralyzed if you are playing someone who knows what they are doing, quite easily.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong, actually Astral is usually second in EVERYTHING with the exception of summons (which if Golems didn't require Earth 2 to cast, they would not be). I don't know how often you use Stygian Paths to have an instant react force, but I'm willing to bet quite a bit Teleport and Gateway are used infinitely more. (Not to mention the Gate Stone and Boots of the Planes).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Treelord's suck. No question there, but Faerie Queens and Couatl's are extremely potent. Not to mention Lamia Queens.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No clue what this means, but most of the summons for Nature come with great nature skills. Also you seem to be forgetting Mandragora's.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water is good for everyone. Though you don't need to have high levels of it to make it work for you.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Death has only one spell. And it does have the best battle magic for direct damage. If you don't believe so, try using a 9F Moloch throughout the course of a game to lay down some punishment.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Witches still burned by fire. It was only Holy in the minds of those who burned them. Maybe you are putting to much emphasis on the "Holy" and less on the "Pyre".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If Purgatory was not limited to Dominion Only it would be a fantastic global. Second Sun is only good for heat nations, but guess what types of nations have fire magic? With the exception of Marignon they all have a heat preference.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hrm. Defense for "Common" Damage? You mean increasing Protection to 30 with one 3E spell? Or Iron Will for MR? How about combat magic? Blade Wind? Petrify? Earthquake? Magma Eruption? Destruction? Marble Warriors? Weapons of Sharpness?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hrm. Isn't very good? Okay.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have to disagree. The earth blessing is probably one of the best for nations with strong sacred mages. This is especially true for those that use communion a lot. Earth 10 gives the mages 5 reinvigoration per turn. Add in 4 on every communicant from earthpower, and 5 from being unconscious, and the mages will regain 14 fatigue per turn. That's a huge amount.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

If you use communion probably you won't go for a E blessing ...
_________________________________________________

Yes I put enphasis on HOLY because it does triple damage on undeads and daemons. If it should be fire only, well or *3 should be forgotten, or even a fireball should be *3 against undeads and demons ^^.

Death has many other combat spells, especially vs Undeads, like Dust to Dust or Wither Bones or generic ones like Shadow Bolts ...
A Wraith Lord with elemental armor can't be stopped easily without another SCs if you haven't death mages or astral (with spell focus and other mr piercing items).

However everyone has its own mind and experiences.
I'm awaiting for next patch to see some changes ... if any will occur.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why not? It greatly increases the amount of spells you can cast, and reduces the possibility that your communion slaves will be killed by the master. It also gives you access to a powerful earth mage, which is always a great thing to have.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Giggle. Always the same with you zen. It's quite comical. No, really. It is. LOL.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, you are always comical.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh but if only you read the rest of the sentence instead of just flying off trying to make your "point". Note it said : "for a spell that affects the whole battle feild".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire darts is indeed a great spell for it's research level. Orb lighting is, however, in another class. It is one of the best evocation spells around given it's casting requirements and effects. It does have a weakness, units which are resistant to it's particular damage type, but other than that it's quite amazing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok... whatever.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed I went over a number of summons which seem to be exceptionally cost effective. NTJedi added the current spell-du-jour.

Well Zen I guess I'm through playing with you and your continual insults and random jabs. It's is funny though.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey that's a good one. However not all of the communion nations can go for earth power. However, just 10 fatigue per turn is very nice and could really save a good number of lives. I would guess that with a 2:1 ratio of slaves to masters you would have a good chance of everyone living though even long combats.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, for the peace enforcing moderator you tend to get nasty very easly Zen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif I've said "correct me if I am wrong", did I? No need for the insults.

I have no problem with memory, thank you very much. And I remeber what you told me about VQ and Liches. However I am surprised that you are saying that priceworthness have nothing to do with combat effectivness, when in fact they are clearly related.

If you take any strong SC chassis and give it 0 base chassis and 10 new path price, you'll make it more priceworthy. And the same time you will increase its combat effectiveness, since now for the same price you can make more powerfull pretender (relatively to any other pretender for the same price).


In reality they are two sides of the same coin. Of course the cost is not the only thing that affrcts combat effectivness, but it is one of the factors.


Anyway I am not really interested in the main subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify your position on the VQ issue after it was mentioned here, since it was not clear to me from your "for and against" post, which you now did, thanks.

[ June 03, 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
It does have a weakness, units which are resistant to it's particular damage type, but other than that it's quite amazing.[/QUOTE}

It has another weakness, which is that it requires your mage to stand at the very front of the battlefield.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd be better off if you tried to deal with his points, instead of just brushing him off.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did correct you. Forgive me if I have to seem to hammer points home with you, from your Posts in the past you have a distinct lack of understanding of other peoples PoV.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you say so. I believe it's what is called "Selective Memory" and it affects us all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Related how? A "Comparison of Lich vs VQ" and a change based on points may be construed as combat effectiveness. But the reason it was changed was not because of it's combat effectiveness, which ultimately will not change for the VQ itself. But rather it was a clear "No-brainer" that for every instance where you would consider a Lich, the VQ always won because of it's price/ability ratio. True, you don't see many Liches going toe-to-toe in a SC role (I believe this is an issue with the Liches, not the VQ being better) but now the Liches are less 'outclassed' by a factor of points for any number of Pretender Builds (Rainbows, Blessings, etc).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To a degree you are correct in the fact that it's more 'powerful' but not more combat effective. If you've ever used a lich, I doubt it's been a hand to face type of Pretender (his strengths fall in another Category). Whereas I can tell that you've used a VQ for exactly that. A Pretender with 3 Death and 1 Water is much more combat effective than a Pretender with 3 Death, 3 Blood, and 1 Astral. One is obviously more magically powerful, but the other is less 'combat effective'.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No Problem.

[ June 03, 2004, 14:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
...

Quote:

Got clams?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clearly Borked! Moderatly easy access to exponential growth == bad IMO!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, for those who can and do abuse them, but isn't that objection irrelevant in this thread? The thread suggests death and blood may be too powerful, and that water is weak. But clams are just one example of how water is strong. If they get reduced, presumably they may get something improved for balance, as well. Until then, they are a notable strength.

Quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please do. Your sword is a two-hander that does only the same damage as mine, if it hits. My sword is a one-hander that attacks twice per turn. Your sword offers +2 to attack and +3 to defend. Mine offers +1 to each of my two attacks, and +4 to defend, plus I will be using my other hand for a magic shield, so if we have the same skill, you are going to have a hard time hitting me. I'd say your choice is sub-optimal except for beating up on lesser, living targets.

PvK

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

The various paths of magic seemed damned well balanced to me. Some are better at certain things than others. That's the whole fricking point! If they all had great globals, summons, battle magic, and items, than the game would be more boring!

However, if you still think death is overpowered, then choose death magic. It's the easiest path for anyone to get into. Dark Knowledge is a D1 spell. You can create TWO easy +1 D items with D2 (skull staff and crown). You can summon revenants with D1 mage with a skull staff. A revenant can cast Dark Knowledge. A revenant with a skull staff can summon more revenants. A revenant with a skull staff and crown can summon a spectre (D1, 2?). A D2 spectre can take the staff and crown from the revenant and summon a Mound Fiend (D3, unholy 3). The Mound Fiend with the staff and crown is D5 and can do pretty much anything you want death-wise. So if you like death, go for it.

As a final point, I would say that Posts on an open forum whining about things being overpowered without any sort of clear argument backed up by specifics is a really bad barometer about real game balance.

Re: Death & Blood a little borked?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a common misconception. Sort of like how unsung heroes are still heroes, even if people don't know or not.

... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To which Huzurdaddi replied:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Zen is quite right here, so if he's always the same about it, then good for him!

Designs where anything "effective" is broken tend to be annoying mis-applications of rock-paper-scissors game balance, a "principle" based on one of the most pointless games ever conceived, often with equally-pointless (and anti-"thematic") results.

Dominions offers many effective, and later, more and more powerful spells. That's one of its many charms, and not at all a problem. It does this on purpose, and it's able to do this without being unfair or imbalanced, because there are so many other effective alternatives available to everyone, and practically everything has some kind of counter-move.

High-powered magic is supposed to be effective in this game, and it is, without being unfair. There are many effective strategies and techniques for every path. There are also many ways to squander points and be ineffective with the things a player has chosen to acquire. Some things may also be more obvious or overt or less tricky than others, particularly when they are explained on a forum to players who haven't yet found equally effective techniques, or who don't have a clear plan for play except for a few tricks.

Moreover, the whole suggestion that certain paths are "borked" would be somewhat impractical, even if it were true, because there is rarely any direct contest between one path and another. In play there is never a simple contest of one flavor of magic versus another, and research is not even down a single magic flavor.

PvK