Forgive me... Noob question
 

Sorry guys, but I couldn't find this in the "Noobs Look Here" post.

How the heck does the communion/slave spell work, and what are the advantages? I saw the crystal slave magic items, and assume they perform the spell as well.

Thanks everyone. LOVE the newer fan maps.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Communion/Sabbath Works as such.

Communion Master's are boosted in ALL magical paths (including Holy/Unholy) based on the number of Communion Slave's are on the battlefield.

The Modifier for this is:
2 Slaves = +1 Path
4 Slaves = +2 Path
8 Slaves = +3 Path
16 Slaves = +4 Path
etc.

Also, all spells cast by the Master have their fatigue attributed evenly among the slaves. So a Master casts a 100 Fatigue Spell, and they have 4 Slaves. The Slaves each get 25 Fatigue and the Master does not gain any.

Any single Buff type spells cast by a Master affect current Slaves. So if you cast Quickness as a Communion Master, the Master + all Communion Slaves would be buffed with Quickness, even though it is a single self-target buff.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought that the master also gained a share of the fatigue, but modified by his skill in the relevant path. Does he actually only gain the fatigue from his spellcasting encumbrance?

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Last I checked (Nearly a week ago) when I was looking specifically at it. The Master seemed to only gain the fatigue from enc. But this may be an error and the fatigue is distributed with the Master. And it may not have been an incredibly accurate test, because I was watching it with spells that were dramatically overpathed so the fatigue was minimal.

If I was at a computer I could check I would double check.

Edit. It is innacurrate. The Master takes a share of the fatigue, but the rounding seems somewhat hokey.

Where the confusion may lie, is if the Fatigue he is alloted is taken off only his 'share' or from the initial casting of the spell. I believe it's off the initial casting then is distributed with applied enc. It would be logical to me if the Path Fatigue for casting the spell would be applied first then distributed among both master and slave. But I will need to test it when I get home then sticky it to the newbie FAQ.

[ June 03, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought that the master also gained a share of the fatigue, but modified by his skill in the relevant path. Does he actually only gain the fatigue from his spellcasting encumbrance? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, that was my understanding as well.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Hi,

I'm a newbie too and have been frankly too intimidated by the (possibly imagined) complexities of communion spell to try it yet so this discussion is a great help. I have other questions.

What happens if there are two slaves and one passes out? Does master lose empowerment? Does all fatigue go to the "awake" one and the "sleeping" one gets none?

What happens if there are two slaves and both pass out? Does master lose +1 path empowerment?

What happens if 4 mages cast communion slave and 2 cast communion master? are both masters empowered by +2 path?


Thanks,
John

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Passing out doesn't matter, they stay as a part of the communion until they die, that happens soon after 200 fatique. Take care of the fatique removal for your slaves!
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">noup, only after they die.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but it is likely that your masters will kill the slaves due to too high fatique. Casting earth power is a good idea, it gives fatique removal to the master and all of the slaves. In big battles casting some self-defence buffs with a master is also a good idea, to protect the usually very fragile slaves.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is complex, especially the fatigue portion of it. But these questions I can answer.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If one slave passes out and the other does not, nothing happens. The point at which something does happen with the distribution is one dies. (At 200 Fatigue, a unit will start to take damage and afflictions, too much fatigue after 200 that unit will die). When one dies, all the fatigue would then be distributed between just the Master and 1 Slave, though the exact #'s are hard to say right now when I can't do a test run.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Slaves that are passed out, still apply their Empowerment bonus. Slaves that die, do not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both Masters are empowered to +2 Path. But the Fatigue from 2 sets of spells (Cast from the Master) apply to the Slaves. This can be done by any number of Master/Slaves. So you could have 10 Masters/ 2 Slaves, each Master getting +1 Path and splitting their fatigue between the 2 Slaves (They will die early).

My most used fashion of playing with Communion is Groups of 4 Slaves (+2 Path) and 2 (4 If Pythium) Masters.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Thanks for the answers. Another question. I have read about the "relief" spell which removes fatigue. I also know about a few magic items (a belt I think, and some boots) that help remove fatigue. Are there any other good/commonly used options to remove fatigue?

Thx,
John

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Relief. A 3Nature spell that is Enchantment 6. It removes fatigue across the entire battlefield. Including all your mages and slaves. Note: This doesn't use any gems.

Reinvigoration (the spell) is a little broken right now, but it does remove fatigue from the caster. It's a 1Blood spell that requires a Blood Slave to cast.

Anything with the REINVIGORATION ability will let you recuperate fatigue. The Reinvigoration value is the amount of fatigue that is 'removed' per round.

Some items that have Reinvigoration are detailed in the MIQR. I can't remember some of the names off hand, but a Girdle of Might, Boots of the Messenger, Amulet of Resilience are a few.

[ June 04, 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yikes... I thought that was fixed with 2.11 patch. Time to change some battle commands.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reinvigoration spell does work at least partially, as the mage will have zero fatigue after casting it. I imagine that he will also currently waste several blood slaves on the spell to reduce its fatigue cost.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

Lifedraining a living enemy also works to reduce your fatigue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Summon Earthpower gives you 4 reinvigoration/turn. Very nice if you have an earth-aware communion master.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reinvigoration spell does work at least partially, as the mage will have zero fatigue after casting it. I imagine that he will also currently waste several blood slaves on the spell to reduce its fatigue cost. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not according to my observations.

I've tried reinvigoration at least 5 times in my Last game as Vanheim. It didn't reduced the total fatique on my vans at all, much less reset it to zero.

Few times the fatique level stay the same after the Reinvigoration as it did before casting, and few times it went slihtly higher than before (by 2-5 fatique points). The initial level of fatique on my fans was 30-70 (Reinvigoration was obviosly scripted to be 5th spell).

I am sorry if it conradict your or Zen's understanding, but I was very careful with my observations. The only reason I didn't posted about this before is that I assumed that this bug is a common knowledge and that public and devs are well aware of it. (I've asked in IRC channel some regulars, and got an answer along this lines).


Reinvigoration is broken. If your expreience with reinvigoration is different and it did reset your mages to zero or close to zero, that just means that it is is not consistent, sometimes working as it shoud and sometimes not working at all. As I said I've tested it 5 times in different battles, after that I've stoped trying.

[ June 04, 2004, 03:31: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what you hope to gain by insinuating that I'm not being honest about what I've seen?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have seen it work multiple times with a demonbred.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure about the rounding either.

I tested it using a group of Shaman in a province with a heat scale that gave them a spell casting encumbrance of 5. The data is listed below:

The first test was with three shamen. Two cast communion slave, the other cast communion master. The slaves were set on {Communion Slave)(hold)(hold)(hold)(hold)(Stay Behind Troops) to keep them from casting spells for a few turns. The master was scripted to (Communion Master)(Star Fires)(Star Fires)(Star Fires)(Star Fires).

The fatigue after the first turn was 25 for each mage. After the second turn, where only the master cast anything, the fatigue was 32 in each mage. With four slaves and a single master, the fatigue after a single casting of star fires was 27. With 5 slaves, the fatigue after a single casting was 26. With 6 slaves, the fatigue on each mage after a single casting of star fires was 26. In a dominion that raised the spellcasting encumbrance to 8, the fatigue with 6 slaves for star fires was 30 (28 after communion, +2 each casting). In a heat 1 dominion, with encumbrance of 4, the fatigue after star fires was 25 all around. For the Last test, the master cast mind burn with 6 slaves, the fatigue on each mage was 27 at that point. I'm not sure exactly how the rounding works, as there's quite a few ways that the data could work out with those numbers.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try testing with things other than just Van's.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I just did a test run to check speficially Vanjarls. Conclusions are as follows:

2 out 6 Van's Recovered Fatigue (44 to 32)
3 out of 6 Van's Gained Fatigue (44 to 48) /Cost of Enc, I believe/
1 out of 6 Van's had no change (44 to 44)


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is common knowledge, but not the full story. I did a test run with Demonbred(2 Blood), Warlock (3 Blood), Pretender (4 Blood) and they all went to 0 Fatigue. I did a test run with Mictlan Priests of the Sun (3 Blood) and they went to 0 Fatigue. And I just did a test with a Vanjarl (2 Blood, +1 Brazen) and it went to 0 Fatigue.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is wrong, unfortunately. It may not be 'consistant' with Van's, which it is not. But it is consistant with a large number of other units. That's why I said it was "Slightly Broken". When you do future tests and before you 'stop testing' you might want to try it with a few other units to see if it's the behavior of just one unit before making declarations of generalizations.

Edit; I just tried to test Mictlan Priests (1Blood) but it was extraordinarily hard to get the proper amount of blood slaves for them to cast reinvigoration. If someone wants to do a test with them casting Imps and such, please do, I am curious to the results if it is a 1 Blood only issue.

[ June 04, 2004, 14:26: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what you hope to gain by insinuating that I'm not being honest about what I've seen?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We all need to be really careful with what we're throwing around on this forum. The paranoia and attacks are getting ridiculous. He did not insinuate you were being dishonest; read what he said.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course he did. He stated that his observations were right, and that ours were wrong. That's no different from saying that we weren't telling the truth when we report what we saw.

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course he did. He stated that his observations were right, and that ours were wrong. That's no different from saying that we weren't telling the truth when we report what we saw. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arrgh.

What are you talking about? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I accursed you or Zen of lying? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I said that according to my observation on Vans (which Zen confirmed with 6 tests below) the reinvigoration is broken. I also specifically said that if it is contrary to your and Zen's observation, it means that
"reinvigoration sometimes working as it should and sometimes not working at all. " (quote)

Which turned out to be exactly the case here, as Zen confirmed with his recent tests.


I never had a sligtest intention of accursng you or Zen of lying and I never did. First I have no reason whatsoever to believe in your or Zen's dishonesty. Second regardless of that, I know much better than accurse anyone of lying in such things, being programmer with 15 + years of expereince, because bugs in the program can easely appear in some situations and dissapear in others.


All I said is that in all my attempts with vans to use Reinvigoration (5 attempts) has failed. Zen just confirmed the same thing with his testing. Based upon his future expereiments bug with Reinvigoration appeares to be limited to either:
(a) Vanheim only or
(b) any level 1 blood mages


Frankly Graeme I rather expected "thank you" when I pointed into the bug in the program that people appeared to be unaware off, based upon your and Zen's Posts, instead of angry reaction that I got from you, and to the lesser degree from Zen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif


To Zen:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I beg your pardon but you have said that <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You never said anything about removing fatique from some races (or for bloodmages higher than level 1) but not others.


Does it means you were lying? No, it does not. Does it mean your were mistaken? Yes, it does.


Why the hell some people hate so much to admit when they are wrong?!?

Regards,
very frustrated Stormbinder

[ June 04, 2004, 17:12: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Forgive me... Noob question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I didn't say that, but I said it does remove fatigue and it does remove Fatigue from Vans and Mictlan Priests, just in a bizzare way and not every time. Perhaps there is a modifier that is missing with Blood 1 so that it won't put fatigue down to 0, or any other number of reasons. But as I said, it does remove fatigue, even on Vans. Just not reliably for whatever reasons.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I wasn't mistaken. It was exactly as I said. Just like saying that "The Master shares the fatgiue but the rounding is hokey". It does remove the fatigue, but for whatever reason only a portion of the time and not in a manner that I can tell is a part of a pattern. And certainly not like it does for anything above Blood 2, which works perfectly, every time I've played and in tests.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. If you bothered to look at your post and the tests I did with other than Vans it works exactly as it is supposed to. Why is it so hard to admit you are wrong? Don't give people the impression that you tried everything you could with Reinvigoration and it is just broke and not usable, because, you didn't.