What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Almost all races have a cheap national mage, but obviously not all are equal. Ignoring any synergy that the unit has with other units of it's race and just basing it on pure stats, which do you think is the strongest cheap mage?

Because of space concerns the cantidates were limited to those that met one of the three following criteria:

a) Three (3) levels of magical ability (Siethkona, Seraph, Harab Seraph, Witch Doctor)
b) A random pick (Fortune Teller, Vaetti Hag, Master of the Way)
c) A stealthy ability (Star Child, Illuminated One, Bard)

If you want to vote for another mage, feel free to tick other.

[ June 04, 2004, 08:44: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

My choice as the best mage is the Fortune Teller. At one time I thought these guys sucked, but boy was I wrong. While not as magicly versatile as the Master of the Way, the FT is surprisingly powerful. She comes in four Versions. All of them are good communion slaves and mind deulers, and can use arcane probing to search for astral sites. They can forge the excellent level 1 astral items. Additionally, the four can do a lot of things with their random pick. The double astral ones can cast Paralyse and Mind Burn. They can forge a starshine Skullcap and access the excellent level 3 Astral Line. The Death/Astral mages can search with Dark Knowledge. Nether Darts is a powerful combat spell. The Nature/Astral Versions can use healing light and forge wine skins. And the Blood/Astral mages are the ultimate Communion OR sabbath slave and excellent blood hunters, as their event-predicting abilities are at their strongest when spread all over the map.

The Seraph is a much better combat mage, but nowhere near as versatile. The Master of the Way is a better forger, but can't match the battlefield astral power of the Fortune Tellers. Siethkonas are better researchers and are versitile on the battlefield, but can't blood hunt and don't come in 2 astral Versions.

Taking everything into consideration, I think the Fortune Teller is the clear choice as the best cheap national mage in the game.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Communion slaves? Yes. Mind duellers.....well, not unless you're duelling somebody really important and are prepared to sacrifice scads of capitol-only units that are difficult to replace, and are communioned up for such a task. If you really wanted to perform sacrificial duelling with an S1/2 mage, I'd recommend the more readily available Illuminati. They're easier to replace when they inevitably die trying to duel somebody's hapless S4 pretender to death.

And, of course, capitol-onlyness severely hampers your ability to deploy them.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I was looking more to a pure stats based analysis, but even in the Black Forest context, I don't mind using them to deul. I usually make one every turn throughout the game, so the capitol-only restriction isn't really a problem. It's not like the BF Ulm has any other leaders you are going to want to build before you have a second fort going anyway. As for getting them to the front lines... that's what winged boots are for =).

[ June 04, 2004, 08:42: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not really sure you can divorce Fortune Tellers from their Black Forest context: They're an exclusive national unit: Capitol-only status *IS* a factor that must be considered in a unit as a negative element, since it will severely limit your production bandwidth if you can never produce them outside your home province, especially when the unit in question tends to have relatively poor mobility.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

I voted Other, and I voted for the Daughter of Avalon. If you're looking for a mage, she's hands-down better than the Bard.

An 80g NN Sacred mage is very hard to scoff at. I'm appalled she's not listed.

Scott

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Other: there is no best. It depends on how you are going to play them, and how you play the rest of your forces. So there is no level field upon which they can be compared for "best-ness".

For example, Mictlan Priest is unbeatable as a blood hunter, and serves as an efficient and needed leader of FoD's into battle in Mictlan's early game, and a great sabbath slave, and other purposes, and it is 80 gold and holy.

PvK

[ June 04, 2004, 17:00: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find Bards much more useful. Awesome stealth, spying, can instill unrest, standard effect, better stats. In battle I'd use both of these mages for the same thing: reinvigorate their colleagues with spell songs, or cast Tangle Vines, for which the +3 more precision on the Bard comes handy. All this for less than 3 extra gold in upkeep. When I need powerful nature magic I use Crones.

Besides Daughters of Avalon are capital-only, and I prefer to stick to recruiting Crones here. Although I may recruit a Mother occasionally for her specials skills, it's extremely rare. OTOH I really can't see a use in the Daughter.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As Man's best researcher, they're what I use most of the time in early game - when there's no chance of being able to buy a Crone each turn.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As Man's best researcher, they're what I use most of the time in early game - when there's no chance of being able to buy a Crone each turn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man has cheap temples and cheap stealthy Monks, and thus is an excellent candidate for Ceremonial Faith. So when I can't recruit Crones I recruit Monks instead - and because they're so cheap recruiting one is an excellent way to save gold to buy a Crone the next season.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am fairly sure that those monks will only get the +2 skill bonus when they are preaching in friendly dominion. This is still a fairly large bonus when they are so inexpensive however.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am fairly sure that those monks will only get the +2 skill bonus when they are preaching in friendly dominion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't say otherwise, but friendly dominion isn't necessarily limited to the provinces you control. And unfriendly dominion - even lowly monks can turn a red candle or 2 white, and once it's white the CF bonus kicks in to make sure it'll remain white.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could make a case for a couple of other mages... but she didn't really meet any of the criteria I chose. She's obviously better than a few on this list, but I didn't anticipate anyone strongly considering her for the top spot. She's a pretty mediocre combat mage with limited forging ability... and while her research abilities are excellent, I didn't anticipate that being enough for most.

Take for example, the Master of the Way. Here we have a hasted banisher who can forge clam of pearls and jade armor. He can search for water, astral, and death sites. He can blood hunt sometimes. He can communion slave sometimes. He's just a better unit than the Daughter of Avalon for a bit more gold.

Or how about the seraph? She flies, she lightning bolts. She can cloud trapeeze. She can haste herself. Under the right circumstances, she can use summon storm power to lightning bLast the heck out of people. She's also a FASTER researcher at level 3 magic. Frankly I'm surprised she wasn't the runaway leader in this poll.

The seithkona is also a faster researcher than the daughter, and she can forge tons of great stuff and cast search spells for astral and death sites (arguably the most important). In combat she can cast both neither darts and healing light, plus body erthreal. Power of the spheres gives her access to a ton more spells, and of course she's a nice communion slave.

None of these three are my first choice (Fortune Teller was), and I think you would have a hard time arguing that the DOA is anywhere close to them in any area aside from cost. She's not a GREAT researcher... she's an efficient researcher. Given the choice of a 90 gold 5 research unit that can do a ton of other stuff or a straight 65 gold 4 research unit that is really quite limited outside the lab, I take the faster researcher and better unit over the econo mage.

What's the DOA's combat contribution anyway? Breath of the Dragon? Relief with a gem? Anything she can do the Seithkona does better, and for only 25 more gold.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

I'm quite surprised at the votes the Witch Doctor has garnered. Perhaps a few of the people who voted for him could explain their reasoning. I'm not a Machaka player, and when I do occasionally play with them I don't use him much. What's the appeal here?

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Machaka has Blindness as a pre-researched national spell, which the Witch Doctor can cast. Takes out many tough things awfully easily.

Daughter of Avalon can do some things that Master of the Way and Seithkona can't, since she is Nature 2 and they never are, without help. For example, she can make her own Thistle Mace early on and so become Nature 3. Another example is she can be part of a cheap Vine Ogre industry. Per my answer to the whole poll, I won't argue any of them are absolutely better than any others. In fact, I tend to argue that the question can't fairly be answered. Each offers unique things to unique nations.

PvK

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Daughters can cast spells such as Sleep, Panic, Haruspex and Sleep Cloud. All useful, though being capitol only is a big hindrance.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Well, since I'm an Abysyan player, my vote goes to the Sanguine Acolyte, for 100 gold I've a sacred 1B blood hunter, that can make of its own lab, temple and rod too, if the situation needs it.
He can sacrifice the blood svales too, even if he's not very good at it.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Regarding the Sanguine Acolyte of Abysia, he's nice... but the small Mictlan priest is almost exactly the same for 20g less...

As for the Daughter of Avalon, I think something that a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that she's sacred. Meaning, upkeep halved. When you consider that a Seithkona is 90g+6g each additional turn, while the Daughter of Avalon is 80g+just under 3g per turn... the differences between the prices just keep getting higher. Another use for the Daughter is casting Haruspex, which most cheap mages can't do (use their searching spell). The Seithkona can, for Death and Astral, but I find that an aberration of Astral and Death magic, more than a point in favor of the Seithkona. (IOW, I see no reason why Death and Astral should get their site-searching spell for only D or S.)

Further on the economic front, the 'normal' national troops for the Seithkona cost more than the equivalent for the Daughter, which means the long-range concerns about the upkeep of your mages is more important.

Scott

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

daughters of Avalon rock - equipped with a thistle mace she can cast pretty much most battlefield nature spells out there, including the really important ones: mass protection, relief, charm, poison cloud. At the same time at 80 gold she is much more expendable than the 230 gold crone, so it's not the end of the world if you lose a few. She's a cheap researcher, and later on when you discover sages or something better she can be sent out with your armies to cast support spells while the crones are doing the really important stuff.

The Bard is pretty good too, but his more limited magic does mean that he isn't as useful when it comes to casting spells. However, as has been mentioned, he's got good precision, and is a great spy, and is useful in battle as a standard, so he's got a lot of non-mage type things going for him.

I don't know that either of the above are 'the best 100 gold mage' but they are for sure both really useful in context of their nation.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few what? Mace-wielding DoAs? How much is a Thistle Mace worth? If you, like me, assume a gem is worth 10 gold, it raises the DoA + TM combo to 180 gold, only 50 gold short to a Crone who gets 3 extra magic skills for the difference. I wouldn't say this combination is so expendable.

Re Mass Protection - you only need one per battle, so no reason to recruit DoA en masse, if at all IMO.

Re Relief - Man doesn't need it as dearly as other nations, it has access to spell songs as soon as turn #1. Actually I prefer to use Bards and Soothing Song, since Relief casters often 'forget' to cast what you want them to cast. OTOH, if you have Mass Protection up, mix Bards in your mage Groups and they won't have anything to cast but Soothing Song while the enemy is far, and they'll protect your other mages with Tangle Vines when he comes close.

There's another reason that makes me prefer Bards to DoAs: there's a great synergy between their Stealth +30 and mages who can cast Cloud Trapeze, since both type of attacks (unsneak/magical movement) will link in surprise raids.

[ June 07, 2004, 19:58: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few what? Mace-wielding DoAs? How much is a Thistle Mace worth? If you, like me, assume a gem is worth 10 gold, it raises the DoA + TM combo to 180 gold, only 50 gold short to a Crone who gets 3 extra magic skills for the difference. I wouldn't say this combination is so expendable.

Re Mass Protection - you only need one per battle, so no reason to recruit DoA en masse, if at all IMO.

Re Relief - Man doesn't need it as dearly as other nations, it has access to spell songs as soon as turn #1. Actually I prefer to use Bards and Soothing Song, since Relief casters often 'forget' to cast what you want them to cast. OTOH, if you have Mass Protection up, mix Bards in your mage Groups and they won't have anything to cast but Soothing Song while the enemy is far, and they'll protect your other mages with Tangle Vines when he comes close.

There's another reason that makes me prefer Bards to DoAs: there's a great synergy between their Stealth +30 and mages who can cast Cloud Trapeze, since both type of attacks (unsneak/magical movement) will link in surprise raids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well if you're comparing them 'out of the box' you're right - but I think the potential the DoA has to meet most all of your nature battlefield magic needs counts for something when you stack them against one another: potential does count for something.

Plus which, magic resources sometimes are plentiful when money is short, in which case mace-wielding daughters are a much better idea than non-mace-wielding crones for those nature spells.

As far as Mass Protection goes, you're right of course, it's a one shot spell. Relief I would argue is valuable even with soothing song available, since it provides more reinvigoration, and to a larger group (i.e. everybody).

If you're using a poison strategy much, poison cloud is a worthy use of DoA, and Charm is a pretty fun thing to have multiple mages casting at the same time.

In other words, what I'm saying is that Daughters are the nature magic workhorse of Man, and they do the job great IMO.

[ June 07, 2004, 20:57: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

i just like the marignon & abysian 1 B mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few what? Mace-wielding DoAs? How much is a Thistle Mace worth? If you, like me, assume a gem is worth 10 gold, it raises the DoA + TM combo to 180 gold, only 50 gold short to a Crone who gets 3 extra magic skills for the difference. I wouldn't say this combination is so expendable.
... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An important consideration, but not entirely accurate, since the "virtual gold" of gem investment in items does not have any maintenance cost, while the actual gold cost of crones does. Also, if you win but lost someone carrying an item, there's a chance worth considering that you can recover the item intact. On the other hand, you could be handing it to the enemy if they win, although the value of that depends on who they are. I once had an Ettin mercenary who took a Thistle Mace as a war trophy and wouldn't let go of it, using it in place of his giant club... another classic pricelessly comical yet believable Dom II moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Anyway, good points on both sides. It boils down to play style - each approach has its merits and costs.

PvK

[ June 07, 2004, 23:12: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

hey, where's the lizard love?

110 bucks, sacred, communionable, and able, as such, to cast relief et. al.

maybe not the best the best, but damn useful all around.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

I save my lizard love for the Sauromancer and the Empoisoner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Recruiting a Shaman is no fun since any time you could recruit one you can choose one of the other two instead.

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

But the other two can't curse that nasty icedevil rampaging your provinces. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

Teraswaerto,

If you're talking about C'tis, sure. Though the fact that the Shaman is sacred should count for something. Also the fact that he can cast the Astral site-searching spell and, later, Summon Couatls shouldn't be overlooked. Finally, for C'tis, it offers the only easy Communion possibility.

Another consideration is that you can also find Shamen in Independent provinces.

I like the 'alternate' Shaman for Desert Tombs now, though. One Skull Staff (which the Sauromancers can forge), and he can summon Banefire Archers. I do like how IW tied Desert Tombs so much to Banefire.

Scott

Re: What\'s the best 100 gold National mage?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's a lot of good mages at 110-120 that weren't included... maybe a new poll for the under 150 crew?

As for the Shaman... great unit, but the Seithkona is 20 gold cheaper and comes with death magic too.