How do YOU play the game?
 

Some years ago, on a Civ related forum, someone (sorry, I have zero recollection of said person) said that strategy gamers can be divided into two categories: gamers and sandbox people.

Gamers view the game a challenge to be beat, be it against the AI or other people. They don't care if their units are blank boxes or pink elephants, if the numbers are right, those units will be used. Gamers strive to win and nothing else, and will pursue the most efficient way to achieve the goal.

Sandbox types view the game as more of a simulation, and like to imagine (in the case of Dominions) a whole medieval fantasy kindom working in front of them. To these people, context and style is everything. They like to behave in a manner consistent to their vision of the world and its inhabitants (for example, no angel commanders leading devils into battle). They refrain from doing a lot of "efficient" things because it doesn't suit their vision and seems wrong.

Now, these are the extremes, and most people are probably somewhere in between. Reading these Boards it seems to me that the people here who play MP games are tilted heavily towards the gamer side, and evaluate things from that perpective. Guess that's why its called competetitive MP, huh.

I on the other hand am most definately a sandbox type. I've played roleplaying games for the Last mm... 17 years, and even if I wanted to, I would find it hard to divorce myself from the mindset.

I like to imagine the my nation as a real place with real people, view my commanders as individuals, and so on. I often make choices, both in pretender design and in-game commands that are suboptimal, but fit my vision of my nation. My pretender is a god (or at least a god wannabe)! He behaves like one. If one commander gets a heroic ability, I try to foster it so that he may become a true hero of legends. Troop choices (especially summons) must make sense. And so on...

Now, I'm fully aware that my style handicaps me if I were to play against a gamer. Therefore I play MP with like-minded friends. So no, this isn't a rant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I'd like to hear how you all play.


K.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im sandbox. I think that this is only one scale in what a player is, but it is interesting. The psychology of this might come into play with these balance/not-balanced arguments as far as whether or not something is any big deal. The gamers would consider any small imbalance as a major problem while the sandboxers would be willing to make some allowances if its in theme.

The sandboxers also would have a focus of wanting all nations to balance against all nations, while the sandboxers would be more willing to accept a rock/paper/scissors mode of balance. Very interesting.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

Count me as a sandbox player. I can be a ruthless gamer, but I find it more satisfying to play within the "mindset" of the race I'm playing.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm all about the challenge. I didn't even know people could have a sandbox mentality. I'd still be playing D&D if I wanted to approach gaming from that angle. Although, D&D was more like a alter reality than a game imho.

I look at Dominions like a game of Risk but with the depth of Chess.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I am definitly a sandbox player.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it is the other way around. Gamers are the ones to imagine ways to abuse game mechanics by twisting its original purpose. A sandbox player would propably forge a clam and give it to that special astral mage he wants to leave the capitol so that he does not run out of pearls during his journey, while the gamer builds massive amounts of clams because he can use them to gain insane magical power. A sandbox player would propably play Black Forest Ulm and take a Vampire Queen with lots of blood and Death and maybe a third path if he really has leftover points to spent. The gamer would take as many different paths you would never expect on a vampire just to make her invincible.

Just a small comparison.
Two children play with their sandcastles on the beach. Both are aware of the goal (destroy enemy castle), but they have a very narrow view of how to do this (hurling small rocks against the walls). Then the third child comes, is aware of the goal (destroy the castle), but has no restraints on how to accomplish his goal. It starts to stomp the castle with it's feets. The sandbox children start to complain about him using abusive methods, and it replies that they could have used their own feet to begin with, and that it is a legimate strategy if they are unable to build unstompable castles.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

Another peaceful thread is born...

I certainly fall within the middle of these categories. I don't think one is really any better than the other but they do certainly conflict if they play each other.

I think a better sandcastle analogy would be that the "gamer" figures out the multiple small rocks all thrown together are much more effective than a single rock. Or perhaps a better use of the flatter rocks is to use them as makeshift shovels and tunnel beneath the enemies castle.

Stomping on the castle directly is leaving the confines of the game. Carrying your analogy to dominions would have the "gamer" hacking the game to directly remove rival players. Or sabotaging their computer so they can not fight back. Since the ultimage goal is to be the "Only god remaining".

[ June 04, 2004, 16:12: Message edited by: Maltrease ]

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

It's definitely not a matter of two distinct categories. I'm not sure it's even a spectrum between two poles. More like, players have a different degree of interest in each type of play.

Personally, I'm more interested in what you called the "sandbox" aspect, but I also enjoy the balance issues and friendly competition.

I very much enjoy playing leisurely single-player games, where I only resort to hunting for the most effective techniques when I'm about to get wiped out, and otherwise follow the careers of my warriors, try to keep them alive, explore things I haven't tried before, and so on. Tons of fun to be had there, for "sandbox" players.

I also very much like playing PBEM games against other players, with only partial in-character roleplaying aspects.

I even get tempted to want to play games such as Asynja versus munchkin-wannabes trying to exploit what they think are the latest "abusive" tricks.

PvK

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you got that mixed up. Sandbox = thematic roleplayer = don't care much about balance = does not particularly want to balance all nations = more likely to be bored by rock/paper/scissors. I think you meant "gamers", from the original post context. (Though, I don't really think those terms exactly mean what the original post suggested they do, in general.)

PvK

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My sample was not meant to be perfect. Indeed I do not see the gamer as the bad guy. I think gamers have much fun playing against other gamers, as well as sandboxers have fun against sandboxers. But they dont mix very well.

But of course, noone here is truly black or white.

[ June 04, 2004, 17:03: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm a sandbox at first, then a gamer after a month or so. I was in a fantasy cream dream with warcraft 3 and thought the unit designs were just awesome, now I don't care if they are little chits on a hexboard as long as my Night Elves beat you again and again and again in the most efficient manner possible saying GG after 5 minutes.

King of Fighters, Last Blade, Samurai Shodown, Shadowfist all the same, loved the fluff (what if the Korean Team was joined by Yagami rather than Kim! Would they revert to crime again?) but then it's the 9-hit cross-up combos buffered into super despiration moves that thrill me.

It's when the fluff sucks (CIV, Age of Empires) that I can't get into the game enough to enjoy the mechanics.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

If sandbox players are thematic roleplayers then I'm the fourth kid in Prince Megahertz example. The one hiding behind a rock out of fear that his carefully decorated sandcastle might get ruined by hurled rocks and stomping feet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For some reason I have very little drive to actually win games. I just want to create something I find interesting and see if it works. If it's really competitive I tend to go for the quickest win possible just to get back to empire building. I think I'm running about 22 mods on Dominions now for the sole purpose that I want the game to reflect my vision on how the factions ougtho behave. If they ever make a Civilization spinoff from this game consider one copy sold already.

It's greatly annoying that noone seems to be interested in creating the ultimate game for a player like me. It would be something like a Dominions/Master of magic/Alpha Centauri hybrid. But the future seems to be all realtime 3D hackfest were the fastest and most focused tactics win all the time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, such a game would be sadistically massive, and playable only in single-player, as most multiplayer folks can't stomach that kind of enormous slog. As such, the AI had better be pretty awesome, and this ain't easy to do, as computers, by their nature, are inherently stupid.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. I wouldn't go so far as to say THAT. I wouldn't exactly say that the "fastest" tactics win all the time, either: My tactics are widely regarded as being a slow, grinding, slogfest. Although certainly focus is important: It's kind of hard to win a game if you're stumbling around aimlessly with no plan or objective beyond "look at the pretty lights". Depending on the game settings and general aggressiveness level and crowding, it's certainly possible to maintain and hold an empire of reasonable size just kinda plodding along trying to stay alive into the end game, though: Inevitably, however, a lack of any plan will not bring you to ultimate victory, no matter what the game is: Any game where somebody can win without an objective or plan is one which requires absolutely no skills and is functionally indistinguishable from playing Rock, Paper, Scissors over the Internet.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

My only small wish for the game is that there would be more "Builder" style stuff.

I like to make long term investments in the economy and infrastructure of my empire. You can do a little of that now by picking a high admin to cost fortress (such as wizard tower, castle) and plopping it down in a rich province. Or by collecting clams and other gem producing items. Early site searching, Archaic Record, represent this as well.

The Builder vs Momentum (conqueror) play style is yet another control bar for the strategy game player.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm also a sandbox player, so to speak, although I do enjoy the challenge that the AI can present. I don't like to play vs. people, as that's too stressful and I play the games to relax from the real world stresses. I like to lay back and try out things for the sake of trying them out, and without any competitive drive behind it. If I were to approach the game in any other way, it would lose it's charm, and instead of having a beautiful toy that I can enjoy with a (somewhat naive) fascination of a child, I would have to reduce it to a cookbook with recipes on how to win it as efficiently as possible. And I don't like cooking, so.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 04, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

On a sandbox/gamer scale I am at sandbox+2.

I wouldn't like Dominions at all if it featured modern military units like tanks or fighterplanes, even with the same game mechanics, the game context is always very important to me. The only 3D-Shooter featuring pre-WorldWarII-units I really really like isn't Wolfenstein but BloodRayne - not because of the mechanics, but because of the setting. There is something about being a rogue vampire lady secret agent. That's about the same feeling when I Gift Of Reason a Doom Horror or Abomination (though I admittedly haven't managed to summon an Abomination in DomII yet), and that's the major part of why DomII will survive on my harddisk until physical failure.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm definitely a sandboxer, but occasionally I have gamist tendencies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm definitely a sandboxer, but one with a strange predilection for role-playing the eccentric, impractical or downright insane. Why yes, the gods must indeed be crazy!

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm a gamer! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

My style defies classification. I play for survival, thus my noteworthy slow, grinding combat style: I'm not actually trying to win, it just happens as a kind of side effect of outLasting everyone else. While a gamer would likely commit himself to crushing the other opponent, I tend to be less concerned with that and would rather keep a sizeable reserve to defend against surprises....although I guess they're not really surprises when they're expected.

Many think that I'll use anything to win....but that's not truly my goal. This has resulted in some confusion.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I actually think this is the greatest strength of the Dom II universe- it's so big, there's room for everybody. I could play forever sandboxing against the AI- experimenting and playing with all of the possible spell/hero/event possiblilities- and those people out there who love to match wits against their brethen can play the exact same game and get just as much satisfaction out of playing for keeps and trying to maximize the massive amounts of variables towards the desired results.

I actually think one of the marks of genius of this game is how almost any strategy will work at least a little bit, sometimes. I mean, imagine one player gets beat by another player, so perfectly and completely, that the only damage the losing player does to the winning player is to injure one of his archers slightly, putting out one of the poor fellow's eyes. Imagine if the winning player doesn't notice the injury and then moves the same archer into a pitched battle against another player of equal strength. Imagine that the resulting battle is perfectly balanced- the results of said battle could very well balance on weither or not a single arrow hits or misses its target. Suddenly, the "token" resistance of the first player becomes important!

An extreme and rather silly example, I know, but the point is simply that the game is so big, small things matter. This game has it's own mini Version of chaos theory, y'know? The butterfly flaps his wings, and the whole landscape changes...

Which means sandboxing isn't always useless, and no amount of power gaming can assure victory, simply because little things matter...

Anyway, just rambling. The main point of this speil is that this is a game so wide and deep that it can be played like Chess or like D&D, and I think that's just plain awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

Sandboxers are actually a kind of "foil" element in a multiplayer dynamic: While their lack of competitiveness basically assures that they won't win the ultimate victory, they exist, they can still potentially cause a lot of damage, and if you're in a game with other cutthroat players, the presence of these other people actually serves as a kind of foil: Launching an attack on them outright can be a mistake, since it leaves you open for attack by one of the other players, but ignoring them isn't necessarily a sound plan either, since they *DO* take up space, and could be potentially manipulated into opposing you directly or indirectly. As such, while unlikely to be the ultimate winner, they still play an important role in the game.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

On the one hand, I'm ALL sandbox, with a pail and little pLastic stars and lego blocks, awwwww yeah.
On the other hand, my IC pretender USUALLY plays to win. Consequently, I'm functionally identical to a gamer, but instead of seeing myself constantly selecting Groups of blood hunters and pressing Shift-Z, I envision the sci-fi/fantasy cliche of a bunch of haggard, world-weary, melodramatic politicians and generals sitting around a table, arguing about precisely how and why they are doomed, why they will not condone a course of action that will lead our people to war, and why the hobbit can't bloody well take the ring until he gains a few levels. Ah, good times.
On a related note, my favorite bit of the Last LARP I was at was near the endgame, when everyone was going to war, the Apocalypse was at hand, history was being made, and myself and the ruling class of my quasi-Italian mercantile faction convened and had A COMMITTEE, which Lasted well into the Final Battle and ended a few minutes before the world did.
I'm bringing this up because I have the sudden urge to let three or four idle turns pass each time something monumental happens and distracts the senate in my Pythium games. So, basically, I've just persuaded myself to disregard everything I said at the start of this post, about my IC Pretender playing to win. Solid.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

ROTFL - fantastic post there, Vicious L.

You just earned yourself a few rating stars. ;-)


von Schmidt

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

Given that there are only two ways to ultimately survive the ascension wars

1) Don't be a pretender, and get lucky.
2) Be a pretender and win.

And that you are forced to play a pretender, playing for survival is the same as playing for victory.

I am Gamer +1. This is somewhat misleading, as I love the roleplaying side of things, and would also rate myself as Roleplayer +2 (in Dominions) but am competitive enough that I like playing to win.

I am not +2 or +3, as I will purposefully ignore certain strategies if I believe they will spoil the game for me or others.

Strangely, in traditional RPGs I am roleplayer +3. My character is more important than my stats, and than any viscereal (sp?) success I enjoy through his deeds.

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

hm, I'm unsure about these categories. I'm definitely a sandbox player in the sense that I don't like the 'feel' of certain nations/pretenders and thus don't tend to play them - for example, I wasn't particularly tempted (pre 2.12) to use a VQ pretender, even though I can see the game-play advantages, because I'm not that interested in playing a Vampire Queen.

On the other hand, enjoying the neat little things about each nation has only so much entertainment value. I won't really enjoy a SP game beyond the first few turns, because it's not an interesting challenge (it can be a challenge without being an interesting challenge). Seeing my archers mow down the hapless enemy troops who don't even try to change their strategy is only so satisfying.

I am interested in winning, and love the challenge of utilizing my forces in the most creative way I can (which isn't necessarily very creative) to try to beat the enemy. But on the other hand, I don't necessarily have much interest in certain "winning" strategies/combinations that I don't feel are in theme.

So I'm not a sandbox builder and not a gamer, rather someone who wants to win, but in the confines I choose for myself. And that's the challenging and fun part (at least for me).

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

I'm not sure I fit on that gamer/sandboxer scale at all.

While I like challenge, and I want to win, neither of those is my absolute primary goal. (I only play SP). On the other hand, I don't really have a strong need to roleplay or stick to a theme.

Probably Wauthan's 4th kids is most similar to mine, though perhaps I'd be a 5th kid: He avoids the others as long as possible, building up a massive elaborate castle with every possible weapon and defense, up to and including strategic nukes. Only when provoked or there are no new "toys" left to research/build does he launch his attack and utterly decimate the other kids castles.

So my ultimate game fun is to expand and tech up to be able to access the coolest spells/items/summons/etc, and then unleash these against my opponents.

Usually, it's possible to win the game well before those top techs become available, but I don't push to win, so that I can get to play with all the cool toys. That's also why I never go for dpilomatic victories or vitory-point victories in games that allow those types of options. Winning with iron dragons are so much more fun than with trolls...

So I guess I'm one part sandboxer, one part gamer, and one part munchkin. Or maybe I'm all munchkin/min-maxer, depending on how you look at it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that sounds exactly like me. I was also the kid, who, as a child in said sand-castle wars, came up with the idea of embedding seashells and twigs as internal supports inside my castle to provide it with increased structural integrity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The resulting castle ended bearing little resemblance to a traditional castle, as I incorporated advanced features at the time such as sloped armor.

Clearly, my defensive mindset was already firmly in place as a child. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 07, 2004, 20:20: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: How do YOU play the game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could consider two copies of that hypothetical game sold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I've been waiting for something like MoM2 for ages.

Btw, I'm a sandbox player too.