New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

New in this release:
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• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Authentic Samurai and Ninja names for commanders.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Major rebalance of Samurai Horsemen and Ninja units, by popular demand.</font>

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You can click the link in my sig to download the latest Version of the Ashikaga Shogunate mod. I will continue to support the mod as long as Illwinter keeps releasing new patches for Dominions II.

I hope the changes to Ninja and Samurai Horsemen will remedy some of the balance issues people have commented on with my mod, it would be awesome to see it get some competitive play.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

thanks...this will be the next nation i play after the game i just started....

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

this looks really cool. I havent tried it yet, just looked through the mod file, but tell me: How come there are no armor-wearing Samurai..? All had prot 0.

Thanks!

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

I have a few questions, Potatoman, about this really well-done and polished mod.

First, why are the Mahotsukai death mages? I would have thought they would be blood mages, instead. Thinking a little farther, what do you think of perhaps a Mystic analog for Blood? 3 random Elemental magic, and 2 Blood? It'd be really quite versatile for the Elemental Blood Summons, in keeping with the Mahotsukai tradition, and suitably priced (200g, perhaps?) wouldn't overshadow Mictlan.

A second question I have is the generally high cost of the mages. The Karasu Tengu seems a little pricey. Granted, it's Sacred, and it has a double-random, but a base encumbrance of 10 is way too high for any kind of combat mage, IMO. The Mahotsukai, OTOH, are even worse (arguably). They get no random picks. The Adept has similar magic rankings to 100g mages, and yet cost 170g. I note their high precision, and high base protection, but it still doesn't seem to be worth that much. The Master has similar issues, but the guaranteed Fire/Water pairing is probably worth it.

Anyway, just a couple of questions. I look forward to a discussion regarding them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

The Mahotsukai are death mages because it seemed more thematic to me, and because at the time I was working on making a second mod of a heavy blood using nation. Unfortunately my hard drive was wiped after it caught a virus and that mod is pretty much dead.

The mages cost so much because of all the people telling me they cost too little earlier. I'm not a competitive Dom 2 player, so I rely on other people for balancing suggestions. They originaly cost 300 for the master and 100 for the adept.

The Karasu Tengu cost so much because 1/3 of them will be able to cast the Ashikaga nation summons, the Aka/Ao-Oni and Obakei Yurei. They need 2n 2f/w/d, as specified in the readme file.

Samurai should be wearing armor. Their 0 prot is probably due to a known bug with the modding system which causes Dom2 to ignore custom armor and weapons after you start a game, exit to the menu, then re-enter the game. Try re-loading dom2.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The 'prot' stat in the .dm file corresponds to the innate, basic protection of that unit; likewise for the other stats. Protection, encumberance, defense penalties et al from the armor (e.g. 'Yoroi') are factored in afterwards.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Look forward to checking out your most excellent mod's newest developments. (I was one of the people who despite loving it found the previous releases "overpowered", hence do not mind the more expensive units now, though I cannot see your newest changes until I get home.)

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, that makes sense. Ah well... it would have been neat to have another Blood nation...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Odd. I'm not exactly sure why people would say that. 110 or 120 for the Adept and twice that for the Master seems good to me. Basically, my biggest problem playing them so far is how to get any real research going.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Guess I should RTFM. Still, they don't really compare to the Celestial Masters of Tien Chi in S&A, and they can get their national summons too. I dunno. Just seems a bit pricey.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seemed okay to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Potatoman,

The Mod looks great. And feels great. My only reservation is that they seem to just get too much diverse magic. Fire, Water, Death, Nature all just sitting on their mages.

It does play fine though, the updated costs are very reasonable as well as appropriate.

My only issue is with the Dragon Hero, he's quite powerful (as Heroes should be), but you can get him on turn 2, (I did with Luck 0, and on turn 5 with Misfortune 1). Don't know if there is anything you could do as far as toning down his base stats and adding in a few more slots to upgrade later so he's not an instant killing machine.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know this is off-topic, but ARE YOU KIDDING? The only more prevalent magic than blood is death. Already you have the nations Abysia (several themes), Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea (base theme), Black Forest Ulm, and Vanheim with blood capability. I think there are *plenty* of blood nations - if there's any path that needs another nation it's earth, which only has Vanheim and Ulm (and a little in Machaka & Pangaea)

Not saying this to try to be an *** - I just honestly don't understand how anyone can think we need another blood nation.

[ June 09, 2004, 17:04: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

I think we need more Earth/Water/Astral Nations!

I also wouldn't mind a Earth/Blood nation.

And a few more Fire/Death spells.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certainly there are a lot of Blood nations, but I don't like almost any of them. Mictlan is a MM nightmare that even in small games gets too involved for me. Also, they're SLOW. Of the rest of the themes, you have Abysia, who in base has no good blood-searcher and in BoH has rather underwhelming nat'l troops. Jotunheim suffers from the base Abysia issue, and Vanheim has actually very little blood capability. BF Ulm suffers from an enforced Death scale.

Something else I've noticed is that Blood tends to de-randomize your picks in your mages, the Jotun Gygja being the only exception. As I've said in the Ashikaga thread, I'd love to have a 'Blood Mystic'.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's also Golden Era Arco for certain, and base Arco can definitely get their hands on Earth mages. IIRC, Tien Chi might get some Earth gems as well.

What I find lacking is not so much this path or that path, but the combinations, ESPECIALLY on Pretenders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't offended. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif My concern with the 'blood nations' currently out there is that they are too focused on 'one aspect' of Blood Magic. Abysia can get Devils and Archdevils, but not Frost Fiends or anything but the Fire Devils. Jotunheim is the reverse. Mictlan is the exception here, but the cost involved is far too high in a playstyle way.

But then, I'm a big proponent of high random picks on mages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*chuckles* The Lunar part of the Exalted mod will be Earth/Air/Astral... close enough for you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sort of odd that BF Ulm totally loses its Earth... best people for it now I guess are IF Ulm and Vanheim...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the ones that are out there are quality, IMO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

I'd love to see a nation/theme with cheap (180 gold, like Sauromancers, for example) Earth 3 mages recruitable everywhere.

[ June 09, 2004, 17:54: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">3 random elemental plus 2 blood for 200g wouldn't overshadown Mictlan?

Without much deep thought, it seems like it would, to me.

Mictlan has no random picks on any of its mages, and the mages it does have are expensive. Compare their most powerful: 2 Fire, 3 Blood, 4 Holy, for 390 gold. No versatility, and nearly twice the cost you proposed.

Moreover, Mictlan national troops are something many players have a hard time using effectively. Norfleet suggests playing Mictlan without taking any national troops at all. Ashikaga has Samurai, which from what I've seen in these threads are (naturally) quite good troops.

PvK

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's annoying that the only nation that can really make easy use of crystal coins and golems is Arcoscephale.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What exists there is pretty nice, but also suffers from being both high level in both research and death magic.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, they are. OTOH, That's 3 Blood (the minimum needed to increase your Blood magic, a plus), 4 Holy (over 0 Holy, a plus), and Sacred (meaning less upkeep). Further, Mictlan's 'lack of versatility' has a plus side, that of knowing you get exactly what you pay for. If you want to summon, say, Devils, their Sun Priest is a one-stop answer. You could buy any number of 'Blood Mystics' before you get one capable of summoning Devils. Similar arguments can be made for Crossbreeding, Frost Fiends, and Horrors. As a final note, without a cheap Blood mage, bloodhunting would be very costly for such a nation.

So, to me, if you added a 'Blood Mystic' to a non-Blood nation, that nation would not overshadow Mictlan in Blood magic, per se.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These are also true, and should certainly be evaluated as part of 'the picture', but the samurai in Ashikaga have a disturbing weakness to missile fire. 10-12 Prot and no Shield vs. Missile fire is not very good, IMO. Luckily, their morale is high enough not to rout from such fire, but they DO take high casualties where other troops might take less.

In any event, that is my take on the situation. Maybe wrong, but time will tell, I guess.

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You need 2 of the 3 elemental picks to come up as fire for devils, which basically means that they will show up quite often.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not much more expensive than Abysia, where a warlock apprentice is 170 gold, capital only, and non-sacred.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, let's see the probability. I count 20 different combinations of FAWE in a configuration of 3: FEW/FAW/FAE/AWE/FFW/FFE/FFA/AAF/AAW/AAE/WWF/WWA/WWE/EEF/EEA/EEW/FFF/AAA/EEE/WWW

Of those, 4 of them have FF. That leads to a .2 probability of getting a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic'. Not _too_ often. You can expect to get a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic' every 3rd or 4th Mystic you buy. That's not 'quite often' to me. Certainly, you can expect it before too long. OTOH, there is a .327 probability that you can hire 5 and not get one. If you think a .2 probability is 'quite often', then you have to agree that a .308 probability is more than 'quite often'.

Now, if you want to talk about having a 'Blood Mystic' that has one Elemental property at 2, that's far more likely. IIRC, that gives a much better chance of summoning _some_ Elemental Demon, but that's not much different than what Mictlan can do, and Mictlan's summoners are 1) sacred, and 2) guaranteed.

There's also the question of increasing your Blood magic with 'Blood Mystics', which would require either 1) Empowerment, or 2) Your Pretender.

I still stand by my original belief that 'Blood Mystics' per se would not overshadow Mictlan.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Warlock Apprentice is 150, not 170. He also has Astral magic, which is unavailable to a 'Blood Mystic'. I think you might have been conflating the Warlock Apprentice's cost with that of the Warlock, which is 270.

Besides, while Abysia is supposed to be a 'Blood nation', they certainly don't do it as well as Mictlan, and if you make a mod that has a Blood nation that is on par with base Abysia, that would tend to support my belief that it wouldn't overshadow Mictlan.

Scott

[ June 09, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Bayushi Tasogare ]

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pangaea (regular theme) could be stretched into being a earth/blood nation - it at least has mages with both picks (not at the same time though).

[ June 09, 2004, 20:50: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I think Zen's point is having Earth and Blood on the same person. This could lead to Demon Knights and that Earth-gem producer. It's certainly a niche that no one fills well at present.

Ah well. Back to modding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Yes. Unfortunately. ;/ I don't see enough Demon Knights I say! Also Earth and Blood would be very synergetic. Of course this may be because Devils outclass Demon Knights in terms of combat.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Going over the available units in the mod, they seem fine, with one exception. The genin count for 5 men in sieges, have magical weapons (knife hand) and cost 3 ressources! No price in gold and/or ressources would be high enough for a normal recruitable unit wielding magical weapons and having x5 siege combine with the other powerful abilities (+25 stealth, survival skills).

I suggest reducing the siege modifier for genin to x2, and replacing the knife hand with a non-magic weapon. Up the defence value 1 or 2 points (to 13 or 14) to compensate, and slightly increase the ressource cost.

/Rainbow

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Er, siege bonuses aren't actually granted yet -- probably there's not yet a modding command which allows it.

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Well apart from any sort of Siege issue, though, the Genin are quite powerful. Trying it out again (for the summons; very good, thanks!), I started to recruit Genin...

and oh dear, they're good. 25 of them can easily deal with 25 of most independent troops without losing a guy.

The problem they have (and the problem Ashikaga has in general) is everything is so terribly expensive. You're paying through the nose for your researchers, the Genin are expensive, and the Cavalry are expensive as well. About the only thing that isn't expensive are the samurai, and with 10 Prot and no shield, they almost have to be relegated to LI status.

Tied all together, Ashikaga seems almost entirely dependent on their summons... that they're not even guaranteed of being able to summon.

Something that would be really useful would be some unit that could give an area 'Air Shield' effect (like a Shield Wall). I don't think that's moddable, though.

Another thing that I want to try is a Bless strategy with the Yamabushi monks, but they need both more damage and protection from missiles. Maybe you could give them some innate air shield, to sort of symbolize arrow-catching stuff?

I don't know. I just don't see how they're supposed to work.

Potatoman, can you maybe explain to me how you use them, to give me some sort of idea?

Scott

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You need 2 of the 3 elemental picks to come up as fire for devils, which basically means that they will show up quite often.
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Reply from Bayush:-

"Well, let's see the probability. I count 20 different combinations of FAWE in a configuration of 3: FEW/FAW/FAE/AWE/FFW/FFE/FFA/AAF/AAW/AAE/WWF/WWA/WWE/EEF/EEA/EEW/FFF/AAA/EEE/WWW

Of those, 4 of them have FF. That leads to a .2 probability of getting a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic'. Not _too_ often. You can expect to get a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic' every 3rd or 4th Mystic you buy. That's not 'quite often' to me. Certainly, you can expect it before too long. OTOH, there is a .327 probability that you can hire 5 and not get one. If you think a .2 probability is 'quite often', then you have to agree that a .308 probability is more than 'quite often'."


Actually there are 64 possible picks of which 10 feature "FF" FFF FFW FFE FFA FEF FWF FAF AFF WFF EFF so the probability is < 1 in 6.
There is a 57% chance of not getting one after 5 picks.

You have a 90% chance of getting one after 14 picks.

Of course this just reinforces your argument

Pickles

Re: New Version of Ashikaga Here
 

Oh, you're right, Pickles. *sigh* I was considering the different outcomes, but not the probability of each outcome. Your way is probably more accurate as far as how the game actually does it.

Still, though, thanks. You gotta be careful with probability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Scott