Abysya Help Request.
 

I'd like a lot Abysya, default theme.
But I'm not able to play them in a winning manner.

I explain there my problems:

They've expensive HI, 20 gold and about 30 Resources (I know they've superior stats but they're slow, very slow and cumbersome, even if they've a superior strenght they get exausthed soon), and this means that even with Productivity 3 (and you're forced to take Prod 3 unless you don't want to have even less money and to produce almost nothing) you can recruit a few of them/turn. And they're not so superior in taking out Indies, and are common sword fodder for mid-late game ... mmm not very common due to their cost.
Humanbred Militia are useless since they got arrowed and escape even before reaching the enemy.

So I've big expences to buy troops to conquer indies, with a not so successful gain if I compare what can a MI/Xbow Marignon or HI Ulm can do.

Another real problem is the research/blood hunt.
Default Abysya can recruit blood hunters only in Capitol. Abysya can recruit effective researchers only in capitol, since the Anthemats (useful to aid conquering indies, but if you buy them you don't research and/or blood hunt) are very costy for their research income.
Even taking Magic3 you find out-researched when you send a fair amount of Warlock Apprentices to blood hunt. And your researchers aren't sacred (right) so they cost a lot of Unkeep that slow down you more. But Abysya should rely on blood heavily...

Someone told me to use Assassins to take out Indies, but this could work only in maps with chokepoints, and this is a slow way, not very secure, and research penalizing, to take out indies.

Your pretender have to take a good admin castle, to build troops.
You have 120 points from heat scale, but its difficult even with desert sun to have in all provinces Heat 3 (well I have in some games provinces with dominion 8-10 and Heat 1 or 2 ... capitol included in 1 ... and this means 5% or 10% income less!)

The heat aura of the troops isn't a thing you can count on ... rarely I've seen enemy troops set afire by that stuff.
You can't really play on bless effect ... the Lava Warriors are nice, but resource expensive, capitol only, easily arrowable. If you go for battle mages Anthemaths, you can try an earth or air bless ... but usually it doesn't worth the pretender cost.


So on ... who can explain me how to play properly default Abysya.
I've tried many pretenders but all of them not worked very well (I've to retest Virtue however, since in the game I used her even if she killed a Divine Emperor soon she got diseased on turn 6 or 7 around ... crippling her definitively)

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I'm not, by nature, an Abysian player. But I think that Abysia is a blood nation. And that means:

1) Watch Towers in every province that you use for blood hunting
2) Mostly forget about national troops
3) Use sages or similar for research
4) Use summons for troops

But then, I have never really attempted this :-)

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

A few thoughts:

Forget about the Warlock Apprentice, recruit Demonbreds instead. They are much better and have lower upkeep.

The main effect of the heat aura is fatigue, not combustion. In hot lands the enemy soldiers often collapse from fatigue long before the Abysians do if the battle Lasts a while. If a non fire resistant SC or Thug is surrounded by Abysians he will go over 100 fatigue in a few combat rounds, even with 0 encumbrance.

Make Lifelong Protections and give them to Slayers. Keep them in Groups and use them mainly for defense, since that way it's easier to position them in the right place at the right time.

Fire evocations are quite good. Put your mages close to the front line so the low precision doesn't matter so much.

[ June 11, 2004, 13:39: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Yes, you put your finger on some sore points.
What I try to do to counter this is:
Get a low-cost pretender and spend points on Scales. Get Order 3 as a must-have.
Search. Find gems. You need em. Alchemize your fire early on for gold to buy troops. Be aggressive.
Not finding sages sucks. There is no real solution to this. Thus: be aggressive, expand, and hope to find sages.
I still like Abysia's national troops, they are just not particularly flexible. Gateway is a must-have spell for me since it's easy to cast for us and I want Thaumaturgy anyhow.
Well maybe that helps?

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Demonbred initial cost is 260, while the Warlock Apprentice is only 150 ...

110 gold less

Demonbred Unkeep= 8.66
Warlock Apprentice=10

110 / 1.4 = 74 turns

In 74 turns your Warlock Apprentice will be more costly than the demonbred, adding the starting cost to the unkeep.
Well Demonbred is far more effective for research and battle too, but often it costs more and you need gold for troops.

All those tactics I use already, except the one of the lifelong protection, since I prefer to use in other manner the slaves.

I didn't know heat aura exausthed. I believed that it was cold aura however.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Both heat and cold auras cause fatigue. Heat also causes combustion and cold numbness.

The Demonbreds are good for many things. They can serve as combat mages, and since they fly traveling to the front lines is quick. They can summon & lead devils. They are the best researchers Abysia has. Though cheaper the Warlock Apprentice is far less useful, and has higher upkeep. IMO, choosing the DB over the WA is a no-brainer.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I certainly dont think it's a "no-brainer".
The DB doesnt research that much better (in fact: 1 point), and I usually have at least 1 or 2 magic scales with Abysia; for the money, I find that 3 non-sacred WAs research much better than 2 sacred DBs.

You may like DBs more; and surely they are a fine unit, and I like them as well.
But I doubt that the choice between the DB and the WA (like almost ANY choice in Dom2) is a "no-brainer".

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure the WA has it's place in some strategies and play styles. I was merely explaining why, in my opinion, one is better off recruiting DBs instead of WAs.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I usually recruit WA's for Blood Duty more than Research Duty (though, they provide that function as well).

Often with Abysia, you are early game pounding with Troops and then at some point (usually turn 15ish) have to do a massive switch to blood to either field an immediate Devil Army (which your 4+ DB's can summon), Ice Devil or begin production of Soul Contracts. You can field quite a few more WA's than DB's when doing this because of the mandatory use of high gold troops that will allow you to win against nearby neighbors. And while mobility is a factor, I find it more important in those situations to have quantity of hunters over a highly mobile fewer.

[ June 11, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Well, I'm probably pretty slower since my blood hunt starts on turn 20 if not 30 ...

The real problem is that I can't keep the pace of enemy research when I turn my guys blood hunting! Even with magic-3 scale.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Just some thoughts:

On small and crowded maps,Abysia is able to compete with the other nations even with bad research,because you can field nice armies via Blood Magic without the need to research a lot in this area.Every Demonbred is able to summon a Devil per turn for example.Of course you have to play very aggressively and maybe with a 9er Fire or Earth Blessing (for Lava Warriors) to get strong armies very fast.I have had great success with a Magic Scale of 0 in this type of games.

On big games,research is without a doubt very important.
Of course its all a matter of prefered playing style,but IMO you have to find a tactic with Abyisa that allows for a very good early expansion AND strong scales(Order 3/Productivity 3/Magic at least 2).
The first turns ,I always build Warlock Apprentices and all Heavy Infantries I can afford with the help of alchemzing the Fire Gems.If I have money left,I build a Demonbred instead of the Warlock Apprentices until I have 2 to search the newly conquered provinces immideately for Fire/Holy/Blood Sites.Afterwards I build the expensive Warlocks to get some important random picks,like 3 Astral,4 Blood or 1 Earth(to be able to summon Demon knights with help of Blood Stone).
I always make sure to produce a capital only mage every turn,If you cant do it,you did something wrong,mostly that means you did expand too slow or you didnt concentrate your efforts on the income rich provinces:)
I find conquering Indie provinces with Abyisa quite easy.
A bunch of Heavy Infantries+your starting Infantries+Anathemant Salamander(for Fanatism/Flare)+ a Pretender that is able to cast Flare will conquer most provinces with few,if any,losses.
Strong Crossbowmen provinces I leave for Slayers to assassinate the leaders,which I produce as soon as I have a second castle,and scouts to take afterwards.
Strong Knight Provinces I leave,until I can use my 1-2 Demonbreds also for battle ,i.e.until I have researched Fireball.

Research Construction 4 first.Afterwards Evocation for Fireball and then Blood.
Fireball is quite important for my playing style regarding initial expansion.
If there is a very strong indie province,I can use Demonbreds to cast several Fireballs and thus to support my army.Fireball causes much less Fatigue and as such is the better spell for Fire 2 and also Fire 3 Mages than Flare.
Because your mages have very bad precision,I prefer to be able to cast 4-5 times Fireball with every mage per Battle than 2 times Flare with Anathemants only.
Generally,as soon as I have 2 armies going,a second castle and a Slayer pack(effectively resulting in 3 armies that can conquer indie provinces) i send 2 aprrentices on blood hunt to get slaves for dousing rods.
Now that you begin building up a blood economy(depending on the strength of your surrounding indie provinces and income they give you,this is always doable by turn 10-15) you desperately need another province to produce mages for research.
If you dont have at least 1 library yet,search for magic sites more deeply,with 1 or 2 warlocks,preferable with Nature or Earth random pick, and 2 demonbreds.Sometimes you find a site which gives you indie mages.If you still have bad luck,prepare to attack one of your human neighbours.
Its a simple thought:If I cant compete in research ,I need more provinces/Income/gems than the research strong nations to be able to compete.
As soon as I get good research up,I try to make peace and concentrate on higher Blood magic summons.At this time I only produce mages,no normal troops anymore.

My prefered Pretender for this is a Scorpion King with 4Fire/4 Earth.
He is an ok battle mage right from the start via Flare and later Legions of Steel+the ideal magic site searcher for the start especially in mountain provinces.
Also he can produce some items for you to get your Earth 1 random Warlocks to produce Dwarfen hammers.Later he can forge Elemental armors for you and can cast some good ritual spells with help of magic boosting items.
I rarely build him up as an SC,because as a blood nation you normally can field lots of strong other SC`s.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I now have a good experience with Abysia (several MP games), here're my views :
HI : quite good, with Fire Res being a great power cause it allows Anathemants to fire astray without collateral damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ! They are somewhere between a human warrior and a Jotun one. But their morale is only so-so, so SoC or Fanaticism are really needed in support.
Forget about the LW though, they're too costly to make them good for a Bless strategy and their unbearable enc (14 !!!) makes them sitting ducks after 5 combat rounds..
Mages : I don't agree with the fact that WA are "useless" : they're cheaper than DB, better researchers, and have Astral Magic. This is a very serious point, because in early game, after getting Alt3, you have a pretty effective force with say 25 HI, 3 WA casting B.Ether*3, and a couple Anathemants for Fireballs and SoC.
WA are also your best Blood Hunters.
So DBs are mainly my Demon armies leaders, with WA doing housekeeping ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Abysian strength lies in Blood, so Cons4 should be researched asap to get the (in)famous Soul Contract (use a Warlock with Armor of Blood and Brazen vessel). Then Blood Magic to 5 for Horde from Hell, second only to Ghost Riders in term of usefulness vs cost in the genre.
Abysia is stronger in "mid game", but you'll soon have a problem with Research unless you've found some indy Library... In this case go to Cons6, build Lanterns and focus on Blood only.

I agree with the proposal of a Scorpion Pretender, but I rather give him Fire2/Earth3/Air3. Fire isn't really needed, Earth gives Dw Hammer, Legion of Steel, Ironskin and Blade Wind, Air allows with Earth to make Elem Staff, Eyes of Prec,Quills, Staff of Storms, cast Seeking Arrows... very complementary to Abysia.

Overall Abysia is quite powerful but needs some "focus", more than say Man or Arco IMHO.
BoH theme is another beast : more Blood, less Fire, human troops...

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I prefer Fire 4 with the Scorpion because I want my Pretender to make good use of starting spell Flare to expand quickly.
To do this you need Fire 4,because with 3 you get exhausted to quickly.
Earth 4 to get to some good globals without empowerment and to cast Legions of Steel.
IMO Earth Magic is very important for Abysia.

If I want then ,lets say,a castle, Order 3,Productivitiy 3,Magic 2,Growth 0,Luck 0(or Growth 1,Luck -1 ),Dominion 6 ,there are no points left for Air.

[ June 12, 2004, 21:31: Message edited by: Mardagg ]

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire : vs weak indies you don't need Flare, or at worst get a Dragon for that.
Earth : Scorpion can't wear Boots, and it's hard for Abysia to get Blood Stone (1 in 8 random path for Warlock...). The Elem Staff is a surer bet.
Anyway high level Earth isn't needed either IMHO.
Scales : take Death3, and you'll get plenty of points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . And why Dom6 ? 5 is enough for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Actually, I prefer a high dominion as well. I personally feel I need a high dominion, especially in MP; I want my dominion high because of heat (we need it bad), as well as order, and I take other positive scales as well.

The problem with LWs is not only their enc (and here, PDF, an earth blessing can be ok), it's their defense, which I think is 3 or something silly like that. Really a shame. But I still use them often early game, because I have a much different build with a blessing which is nice for Indy conquering, and pleeeenty of points left over for 3 order, 3 productivity, 3 heat (of course), 3 luck, 3 magic, and a castle, with 7 dominion (of course I take death here to afford that).

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

PDF,I remembered myself that Scorpion King cant wear boots,you answered too fast http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Other than that,the little bit extra reinvogiration because of Earth 4 is also a thing to consider,indeed.

I know that Abysia could take a Death Scale...I would never do it though,If I plan to go heavy on Blood Magic and research.I want options,on how to play it.With a high Death Scale,you are forced to play Abysia very aggressive throughout the game and,more important,its difficult to get a very strong blood economy going because your neighbours now not only dislike your Heat Scale but also your Death Scale,making peace more difficult,resulting in wars all the time:)
On big maps,with lots of opponents,I dont recommend this.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

...which is why you choose an Earth-9 Cyclops for Abysia. +4 armor and 4 reinvigoration. Also can cast that magic armor on them if he's around. Touch him! Love him! Liebe meine abst-monkey!

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

I tried a E9 Cyclop ...

Woah ... +4 Armor for my Lava Warriors, and renvigoration for my mages ... let's take it.

About before the tenth turn of the game my cyclop was kille thrice and lost his Last eye.
He was killed too by Indies due to exausthion since he don't recover from fatigue.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

do a supah pretender, POD + EE & BB
with 3 order , -3 prod, 3 heat, 3 death , 3 luck and 3 magic

and you got some points over you could reverse prod if you'd want too even or make your pod more rainbowish.

start making assassins to take out indies and build another tower as soon as you got another territory then when you've researched con 2 you can make a horror helmet and conquer indies with your POD

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Cohen,try a Fire 9 Moloch first,this is a much easier approach.Nearly unlimited Flare,some Imps as support for every battle and Fire Darts if your are facing a lot enemies with not too high protection.

To play a Cyclops correctly with Abysia,you need to know exactly what to do.This requires more than just one test game.
Basically you have to move him around with an army and to avoid diffcult melee battles until you get some cheap items,like Boots of Behemoth, and body Etheral(with an WA casting it on the cyclops every battle).
After this,your Cyclops starts climbing up the Hall of Fame quite easy .
Later on,with better equipment ,you skip Body Ethereal and start conquering provinces alone.

Again,if you dont like SC`s try the Moloch instead.You can use him as Battle mage only.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Moloch isn't very good really, I tried it. Blessing it's nice but not so strong considering you can recruit only few Lava Warriors.

I found interesting playing with an Air9 Virtue (60 pts Fortress, 3 Order Prod Magic Heat, -2 Misfortune, -3 Death).

Dominion 8
Desert Sun

6 Pts in advance.

Virtue can do a nice job dealing with common indies. Even HC. She can Air Shield, Mirror Image, Mistform and go. She's mobile to react quickly to enemy attacks, she can trapeze if necessary and have a great aim for thunderstrike or orb lightning. She can wrathful skies too without even scare the effect or waste an item slot to be protected. Sadly she's very frail even in her own dominion and have slow stats ... I believe a such angelic being should be with moloch like stats.
The bless make your mages protected by arrows and 75% lightning.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Every time I hear this, I start to wonder. There is NO WAY the Virtue should have similar stats to the Moloch. The Moloch is one of the best fighters, stat-wise, in the game. The only thing preventing him from SC-dom is his Imp posse. If you made the Virtue as good as the Moloch... she'd be first choice as Pretender.

The Virtue has many bonuses over the Moloch already. She has a one higher starting Dominion. She has a better path. She has Awe(+6). But she's not meant to be a SC. Like the Phoenix, she's much more of a combat mage. As you point out, she can cast Wrathful Skies and not care. All this, and IIRC she costs less than the Moloch.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It also extends the same benefits to your Lava Warriors, which become quite a bit better once they're virtually immune to crossbows.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Screw production. Hell you can even take a sloth scale. Think about going blood of humans, since they have MUCH cheaper bloodhunters. Really all I ever used the abyssan infantry for were for expanding and to guard my mages.

Couple of things to remember... your best combat mage is also your priest. 2-3 Anathemant Dragons in every army is a good idea. Research up alteration for combustion. It's precision 100, so you don't have to sweat the misfires. Eye of aiming on these guys isn't a bad idea either, for when they start with the falling fires.

If you go with a SC pretender (and thus have earth 3), then consider going the dwarven hammer/lifelong protection/soul contract route. Don't take blood on your pretender. It's a snap to forge a few items with your first blood 3 mage and get those items forged. This way you don't even have to research blood magic until the midgame.

One of the nice things about Abyssa is that they have mages in Fire/Astral/Blood... and your pretender will probably have Air/Water/Earth and maybe even Death and Nature. You can get a really nice gem income going by searching with just pretender/dragon/warlock.

When I play Abyssa it's blood of humans with sloth 3/Order 3. BOH also gives you the newt who is a nice researcher... although I usually use the blood hunters for both jobs. Keep recruiting warlocks when you can until you get one of every elemental random. That way your pretender can kick out some boost items and you can get those Demon Knights and Storm Demons going.

Consider the research path Alteration 5, Construction 4. The first for SC skills and combustion, the latter for dwarven hammer, Soul Contracts, Lifelong Protections, SC gear, and sanguine rods. After that I usually go for searching spells.

Good luck.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

E-9 Cyclopses are your friendly neighborhood Blade Wind spamming Pretenders. I never use any Pretender as a tank in the early game unless it regens, is immortal, or is a disposable SC.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Conjuration 3 gives you summon earthpower, which will handle the cyclops' fatigue quite well.

Re: Abysya Help Request.
 

Another point : I've just won a MP game with Abysia, and my previous 2 MP games were also won by Abysia (played by others http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) !
We're usually using VP victory, and it looks like Abysia, has a definite advantage in those in "late mid game" (ie before magic levels 8-9 are attained) mainly with Astral scrying + Horde from Hell and/or flying Demons armies.
Another Abysian strength http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif