Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Why would you choose a mountain citadel over a dark citadel? The dark citadel costs less gold, doesn't take as long to build, and has more admin all for the same amount of points. What is the advantage of the mountain citadel?

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Well for one, mountain has more letters than dark. And thats pretty cool!

Another reason comes into play if you were actually to assault the fortress. A mountain citidel has much more defensive walls and shoots 32 arrows a turn.

I'm not sure what the dark citadel has... but it is not as good.

Frankly though... the number of letters is almost enough for me (if I ever chose anything besides a castle that is).

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Mountain Citadels are a **** to storm. I'm pretty sure they're the ones the AI is so fond of, with the long, narrow chokepoint and the towers right on top of it.

I'd need to check with someone, since I always pick Fortified City (13 letters, compared to the castle's puny 6)

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

OK, a dumb question: what are "letters?"

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Dies laughing.* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Here's a hint: there are seven of them in "letters." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the one. Can be pretty fun for Miasma Ctis.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ya... good old LUCKY thirteen. Thats alway treated me real well! [cough]

Six is closer to 7, which is defined quite literally as being pretty damn good... as far numbers go at least.

Mountain is equally close BTW

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Yes they're difficult to storm, but with cost 750 and 5 turns to build you can have very few of them compared to other castles type, and won't give you many money and resources as other castles.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In that case, the fort of choice is the "Citadel", with exactly 7 letters. I expect to see you using this more!

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Mountain Citadel:

double wall & gates (= inner yard, 2 squares wide)
32 firing points from front towers & side towers

dark citadel:

Dark Citadel:

long passage with giant rock teeths (2/3 wide)
0 firing points

good play
Liga

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Interestingly, it's rare to see anyone pick anything other than the Castle, Fortress, Watchtower, Mausoleum, or Wizard's Tower, with the castle by far the overwhelming favorite. Very rarely somebody will take a fortified city (and lose), and some newbie's first game may invoke a Dark Citadel, but nobody ever takes the Mountain Citadel: To understand what the strengths of the mountain citadel over the dark citadel are, you'd have to not be a newbie, as the stats on paper look better for the Dark Citadel....but if you're not a newbie, you're probably not taking EITHER of these hideously expensive yet poor admin forts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the one. Can be pretty fun for Miasma Ctis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I was thinking of Hill Fortress. Is Mountain Citidel basically the same thing except a bit tougher? There are very few circustances under which I can see a 750 gold Fortress being a good investment, though.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

I don't believe that those "32" firing points make real difference when you come under siege, and you'ren't able to break siege by sallying forth or sending troops from neighbouring provinces.

If you're able, those firing points don't matter at all.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In the sort of game you play, mebe. Try Urgaia with 5+ land nations for a change, or avoid generalizations.

Better - do both. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that still would be an awful idea: The ROI on a Fortified City, considering that its admin is a mere 10 points better than the Castle, and thus yields only an additional 5% income, is awful. On such a cramped map with such claustrophobic conditions, the exhorbitant cost and lengthy build time of the Fort City will basically preclude you from building another one easily. This means you'll be effectively limited to one fort for most of the game, leaving the rest of your provinces completely undefendable and leaving your probably one-and-only army, given that the odds of being able to afford two effective ones is low, with nowhere to duck and cover: That leaves them hugely vulnerable to being wiped out in a surprise attack by an enemy SC before you can bring you own to bear. The fortified city is usually not ideal even in peaceful conditions where you're allowed to actually build them: I don't think they'll do better when you likely won't even be given any time to build any!

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Well, a strong fort is good at defending a position, and keeping, say, the magic sites in your possession. If someone does try to storm it, the 32 firing positions and channelled approach can do huge amounts of damage, especially combined with casters and tough defenders inside.

PvK

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Perhaps he was referring to the Mountain Citadel ...

However it's too poor in Admin, so you cannot gather properly resources from neighbouring provinces, in a 5 player Urgaia map ... and I suppose in the beginning you're in dire need ot troops.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that still would be an awful idea: The ROI on a Fortified City, considering that its admin is a mere 10 points better than the Castle, and thus yields only an additional 5% income, is awful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know any castle type that comes with a decent ROI, even the Wiz Tower - but of course this is completely irrelevant since in that case you aren't going to build any - at least, a priori. The sole point of the Fortified City on small crowded maps is to make your extra income and resources to pay asap and snowball, to get an early edge over the other nations - everyone starts with only one castle, remember? And if someone is willing to build a second castle too early, that will put him even more behind the curve.

Quote:

This means you'll be effectively limited to one fort for most of the game, leaving the rest of your provinces completely undefendable and leaving your probably one-and-only army,

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You should try at least once before making assumptions like these. Whoever picked the Fortified City in such a game is likely to be the one with the most troops, thus the most armies, thus the one who can defend and invade at the same time, and who can crack your own fortresses open the easier. It is an effective strategy, provided you're offensive-minded. I've seen it used and used it myself many times.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

The wizard tower and castle do not have bad ROI's, particularly if playing on a Rich map setting.

If you built a wizard tower in a provence generating 100 income it will increase your income by 15 gold a turn, and pay for itself in 20 turns.

Finding provences with higher base income produces even quicker returns. Obviously if you plop a fortress down on a provence generating 20 income it will never pay for itself.

If you playing with high income scales (3 order, 3 production, 3 growth), rich maps, or big long games this can a significant motivation in your plans.

It also combines nicely with the lvl9 nature enchantment spells that doubles your income.

And of course having lots of fortresses has many other benefits besides simply enhancing your economy.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. Anything that takes more than 10 turns to pay for itself in Dominions has a poor ROI in my book. OFC your mileage may vary.

Re: Mountain Citadel vs. Dark Citadel
 

Well, if you don't think that fortifications have a decent ROI (which IMO they shouldn't; that's not their point), you would still choose a fortification that has the best ROI, if nothing else to minimize your problems.

From an economical standpoint, the two best Fortifications for ROI are the Castle and the Wizard's Tower.

I think it would be interesting if, as an exercise, IW made all Fortifications equal in price (the most logical price would be 0) and made them quantitatively different in other ways (Admin Ratings, defense Ratings, Supply Ratings, etc.). Then you could have the 'defense fort', the 'money fort', the 'cheap fort', etc.