Pretender Balance Mod
 

As suggested elsewhere, I'm going to try to make a mod that more evenly balances the Pretenders against each other. What I'm going to do is change the criteria on how to assign Starting Dominion to Pretenders.

All Immortal, Undead, and SC (Wyrm and Nataraja, mainly) Pretenders will be given a 1 Starting Dominion.

All Giant/Titan Pretenders will be given a 2 Starting Dominion.

All Rainbow (basically, the humans)and Immobile Pretenders will be given a 4 starting Dominion.

The relatively few leftovers (those that don't fit into any of the above categories, like the Virtue) will be given a 3 Starting Dominion.

Does this make thematic sense? Probably not (though you can make a case for it). It will certainly improve the lot of the human Pretenders, though. The rubric behind the above selections was to try to inversely relate combat potential (as in, SC-style melee combat) and dominion strength.

Anyway, I'll work it up, and then see if anything needs tweaking.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

Just a quick note:

What the Developers consider initial Dominion Strength is the awe with which mortals and devout believers feel for their God. The reason that human pretenders have less than fantastic pretenders is because they are 'human' and less mind bogglingly godlike than say, giant humanoids who wield lightning or fantastic monsters of myth and legend. Things that are clearly outside of human understanding and thus can be made 'godlike' easier and have more influence over people than being unfortunately human.

[ June 17, 2004, 17:18: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I agree with Zen in this case. More "naturally godlike" beings should have higher dominion. Balancing pretenders against each other can be done entirely with point costs (and in some cases, path costs and abilities).

IMO what the human pretenders really need is better special abilities. This would both make them better, and more distinguishable from each other.

[ June 17, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: Sheap ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

While I feel I understand the current rubric behind assigning dominion strength, that rubric is actually not conducive to game balance. I believe that the mod I am making will offer more choices for Pretender design.

As an example, let's say you're playing a nation that has access to the Lady of Fortune. If you want a 6+ Dominion and 4W/4N/4E (say) on your pretender, it is actually cheaper to take the Lady of Fortune as opposed to the Frost Father. (The Lady has 164 points left at 6 Dominion, while the Frost Father has 128.) This is with the Lady of Fortune's higher base cost _and_ much higher path cost. I don't think this was intended by the designers.

Under my mod, the costs would change as follows:

Lady of Fortune: 100 points
Increase Dominion from 2 to 6: 7+14+21+28 = 70 points.
Increase Water to 4: 8 + 16 = 24 points.
Increase Nature to 4: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points.
First pick in Earth: 40 points.
Increase Earth to 4: 16 + 24 + 32 = 72 points.
Total: 100 + 70 + 24 + 48 + 40 + 72 = 354 points.

Frost Father: 55 points
Increase Dominion from 4 to 6: 7 + 14 = 21 points.
Increase Water to 4: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points.
First pick in Nature & Earth = 20 points.
Increase Nature & Earth to 4 = 144 points.
Total: 55 + 21 + 48 + 20 + 144 = 288 points.

That's a difference of 66 points. About fair when you take into account survivability differences and the Lady of Fortune's better specials.

Note that if you take out Earth magic, the Lady of Fortune gains 112 points, but the Frost Father gains only 82 points. That means that the Frost Father, at this point, is still 36 points ahead. The Lady of Fortune can raise her paths more cheaply than the Frost Father can, while the Frost Father has cheaper Dominion increases.

In any event, this will be an ongoing work, but the start will be this.

As another way of thinking about Dominion strength... who are you more likely to follow, a Giant Overlord, or someone who was like you and is now trying for something greater? You can give the 'home court advantage' to the humans using this logic.

Then there's also the question of what is more impressive, a 2-headed Serpent that could eat you before you ran, or a mage who can look at you and turn you into any number of nasty things.

From a mechanical standpoint, I don't see the use for any of the humans, as they are right now. If you want your Dominion to be 'competitive' and you want your scales to be 'competitive', you can't afford to take a human pretender. Even the one difference in starting dominion between the humans and the Ghost King makes the Ghost King a better Rainbow than most of the humans.

This mod is for the sake of balance. Unfortunately, some of the thematic arguments will fall secondary to the primary goal, which is to even out the use of the Pretenders.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

Scott, not to change your direction or anything regarding your intention. But, don't you only play SP?

The benefits of a Rainbow vs a Combat Pretender are easily seen but hard to gauge and do depend somewhat on game settings.

They are not on a level playing field, but they do allow you to play differently.

A better comparison or 'balance' would be adjusting Pretenders based on the one 'good' pretender that is rainbowish (I.E. The Ghost King) and not trying to match them up against some things that may not fit thematically, or strategically.

I personally would be much more likely to think of a giant 2 headed snake that could talk and do magic as a God than some creepy old guy who can do magic who lived in some big old castle for years. Simply because I have more in common with the creepy old guy than with the 2 headed snake. And mortality is sort of a key component to being "Godlike" in my book.

[ June 17, 2004, 18:27: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

As a more extreme example, let's take the Arch Seraph vs. the Virtue.

You can say that their chassis is similar enough for comparison.

Their base costs:

Arch Seraph: 65
Virtue: 50

Their base dominion:

Arch Seraph: 1
Virtue: 4

Their base paths:

Arch Seraph: A
Virtue: AA

Their path costs:

Arch Seraph: 10
Virtue: 80

Oookay. So I would think that the potential for versatility makes the Arch Seraph cost more than the Virtue.

The problem is that the numbers don't help the situation.

Again, let us assume Dominion of 6 (which I have heard referred to as 'standard'). So let's do some examples.

Cost of Air-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 95 points.
Cost of Air-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 218 points.

Okay, clearly the Virtue is superior here. Note that any increases to either Air or Dominion will benefit the Virtue more.

Cost of Air-4 Other-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 247 points.
Cost of Air-4 Other-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 300 points.

Even with adding another path at 4, the Virtue is superior to the Arch Seraph. That is with a 70-pt. difference in Path cost. Note again that any increase to Air or Dominion benefits the Virtue, while increasing the Other costs the same for both parties.

Cost of Air-4 Other1-4 Other2-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 399 points.
Cost of Air-4 Other1-4 Other2-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 382 points.

At 3 paths at 4, the Arch Seraph finally overtakes the Virtue, but the difference is only 17 points. This is not enough to enable an additional purchase on the part of the Arch Seraph (except for 1 level in a 4th path). So we can safely say that the Virtue and the Arch Seraph are equals at this point. Another way of putting this is that you would have to buy 4 paths of magic (at 4) to make the Arch Seraph a better buy than the Virtue.

The main culprit you can point to for the downfall of the Arch Seraph is the cost to increase her Dominion up to match the Virtue's. This artificially increases her 'base cost' to an astronomical level, to the point that the Virtue is the better choice for anything but broad but shallow magical knowledge.

Now, note the difference under my proposed mod. To get the Virtue and the Arch Seraph to equal levels, the Virtue would have to buy a point of Dominion (7 points), and the Arch Seraph would have to buy a point of Air Magic (8 points). Much more balanced from the viewpoint that the difference in costs is accurately reflected. Then, you have a much closer argument for which is better. If you want more than one path, then clearly the Arch Seraph is the cheaper (thereby better) way to go. However, if you want to specialize in Air magic, the Virtue would be better. She has better combat stats and innate immunity to the element's magical attack form.

This is my idea of 'balanced'. You have several equally useful options.

Similar arguments could be made for Lord of Fertility/Bull/Mother of Lions vs. Great Druid, and so forth.

In any event, hopefully this gives you some idea where I'm coming from in terms of this mod.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

6 Isn't a standard for Dominion I believe. At most it's 5 I believe. 4 Paths at 3 would be a better estimate (as that is primarily what Rainbows use)

Dominion isn't as useful to Rainbows as it is to Combat Pretenders, because Rainbows do not fight initially, only when they are ready to handle situations and spell research is ready. Whereas the point pouring into Combat Pretenders it to have an immediate economic advantage, wheras with the Rainbow it's a potentially significant gem advantage.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This Last point is quite irrelevant, since your example isn't meaningful at all: it's built on the LoF's strengths and compares them to the lack of the same strengths on another pretender. You could as well have said, "I want a fire-9 blessing, how does a Crone compare to a Moloch?".

To be fair, you should now design a realistic Frost Father with 1-3 levels in 6-8 paths, a moderate dominion (4-5), and design a LoF using the same magic and dominion strength. Then compute a mean to get a meaningful assessment of their respective values.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I knew this would come up. *sigh* Yes, I only play SP. That is because the computer that DomII is installed on cannot go onto the internet, and the computer (that I'm currently on) that can go onto the internet cannot run Dominions II. It is not because I don't want to play MP.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to be honest, I play most often on the settings that are most conducive to Rainbow Mages (Rich, 75% Magic Sites), and I still don't use them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you give a reason as to why they should not be on more of a level playing field?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As my Virtue/Arch Seraph example points out, I believe that specialization vs. variety should be equally viable. They are not, however. I think I chose the worst possible non-Rainbow Pretender to try to make Rainbow (the Virtue), and it was still better than the Rainbow in 3 or less paths. Under my mod, each _should_ work equally well in a game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two small quibbles. One, the Wyrm starts with no magic. (The land ArchMage doesn't either, but most Rainbows do.) Two, if mortality is a key component to being "Godlike" (from this I take it you mean that the more immortal you are, the more godlike?), why do the Immortal Pretenders all have low Dominions, and particularly why did the VQ's Dominion _decrease_ in 2.12?

The other option I have is to take the opposite approach, and switch the magic paths of human vs. giant Pretenders. Make the humans the specialists (and let's face it, do they have the time to master 8 different paths of magic?), and make the giants the generalists. Would that be better?

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

IMHO a lot of the Rainbow-Mage-Wisdom I read here comes from the days of DOM1.

But with the blesses and all those new sites, Lvl 4 is just too useful.
Lvl 2 on the other hand is quite common on national or even indie mages ..

And getting the human pretenders to Lvl 4 in multiple pathes is too costly, compared to the giants which don't pose to much of a problem at least with some path combinations.

(I found Fire or Water plus Earth plus Death @4 really devastating with blessable troops and mages, e.g. Vanheim, Last of Tuatha, T'ien C'hi)


But I don't think modifying the starting dom as Scott suggest does make much sense. At first, adjusting the point cost is simpler and makes for better fine-tuning.
Second, the problem is not with the base costs, but with the non-existant starting magic levels of the human-sized pretenders.
So give them all Fire, Water, Air, Earth @1 and do the math again ...

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I think the issue here is that you are not considering true rainbow mages. You are focusing on high dominion with strong magic in 2 or 3 paths, which just happens to be exactly the greatest strength of the titans. This is not what a human pretender should be trying to do.

If you have 4 points in each path you can find every magic site except holy/unholy. This will allow you to find on average roughly one site per turn, with average site frequency, as long as your army can keep up this pace of conquest (should be doable vs independents even of high strength).

If you have a rainbow mage you don't need so much dominion because you are not using it to boost your own strength in combat.

If you have 4 levels in each path you can forge almost any item. With an easily made magic item or two you can forge literally any item.

If you have a rainbow mage you gain more from your research in the later game because there are not very many spells you will not be able to cast.

During the early game you will not have the ability to send your pretender out busting independents. You also will not have the risk of getting your pretender afflicted. If someone stabs your 4/4/4 titan in the head, perhaps by standing on a tall ladder, and he gets feebleminded, you are toast. This will never happen with a rainbow mage.

In the midgame you can't take as aggressive a stance as a player with a combat oriented pretender. But you will have more gems, more and better summons and you will have them sooner. You could surprise your enemy with a powerful army of summoned units before he thinks you will have them. And you will have fewer gaps and weaknesses in your army because you will be able to conjure up anything.

The only downside to a rainbow mage, IMO, is that he can do only one thing at a time even later in the game, meaning that if he isn't searching or researching he is wasting a significant fraction of his power. But then a combat pretender wastes a significant fraction of his power whenever he is not actually turning the tide of battle. Every affliction suffered, every turn spent in a siege, every battle overwhelmingly won or lost, wastes the power of the combat pretender.

A lot of the decision is based on what your nation's strengths are. If you have a nation with strong troops that can handle independents with the regular army, but has weak mages, then a rainbow mage is an excellent choice for a pretender. If your troops are weak and depend on high dominion or blessing to fight well then the rainbow mage isn't so great. (Even then your blessing is likely to be not hopeless - a bunch of weak powers instead of one or two strong ones).

[ June 17, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: Sheap ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said who plays only SP can't have valid balance suggestions, quite the opposite. But when it comes to pretender design for balance more emphasis is on the MP aspect since it is there that it really shines. In SP you can set you opponents to Impossible and have a Wyrm with 9F9E9S show up at your doorstep and still beat them. But it takes alot of MP to see the ramifications of a Rainbow Pretender or the drawbacks (Some people only play Rainbows in SP because they don't need combat pretenders and the opponent doesn't use their own to full effect)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm just curious why not. Obviously Rich would be a limitation since initial combat pretenders with high gold would be more attractive. But in my mind having an immediate gem income from a Rainbow without having to worry about a Comp Pile I would be more like to play Rainbows.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is no reason they should not be. But Level in what sense of the word? I'm Pro-Upgrade-Humans, have been from the start. I even wouldn't mind if Humans had a minor boost to Dominion (Max of 2), but I don't think Dominion matters to human pretenders as much as other pretenders. I'd be more inclined to level the playing field with abilities that increase their survivability and speciality rather than brute influence over Dominion. But that's my opinion, you are certainly entitled to your own.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know what kind of impact you're giving gem income or summons. I would rather choose a Virtue over an Arch Seraph, but it's not because of their inital dominion strengths or even cost/path.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because Vampires don't exactly exude influence as much as fear. They don't inspire worship, they demand it. There are alot of factors to look at and it can be argued either way. These are just generalities as far as "Humans in my mind with gods that are human, make me think either a.) they are less of a god because they're human or b.) I'm more godly than mortal since a human can be a god. Either way, the underlying perception could mean less influencial, which is the way IW looks at it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Better? I don't know but I do know that high magical paths are thematically attuned to beasts that are extremely 'elemental'.

I don't think it would be a bad thing to put 3 Path specifics on Human Pretenders with an increased Path cost of 40/path.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I agree with Sheap. You are handicapping all of the low dominion chasis by assuming that you always have to start with a Dominion of 6. Operating under that premise of course the Titans and such are better. But there's no rule that says you can't start with a low dominion, and use your points on the things that a Frost Father or whatever is actually good at, instead of frittering them away trying to get a really high dominion.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you say so. I don't see it, personally, but then, I haven't played MP.

Another impact of my mod would have been that the computer would have better Pretenders, since it doesn't operate under the same design criteria as humans.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two things. Rich setting, to me, means that you can have more troops, which devalues SCs. Well, it increases their power while decreasing their utility. More money equals more troops and more forts and more mages. Mages are the SC's bane, and SCs can't take forts. Therefore, a Rich setting is not good for SCs, to me. The other reason is Acashic. It's much more reliable than ANY Rainbow can be, it's faster, and any nation in the game can cast it every 10-11 turns, and it snowballs from the first, for the same reason Clams do. Basically, having a Rainbow search for sites is just too damn slow.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, maybe it's my lack of experience, but I distinctly recall several people on this forum stating that taking anything less than Dominion 5 in MP is suicide. By increasing the human's base Dominion (especially vis-a-vis the giant's), you are in fact giving the human Pretenders more points to put in magic or scales or fort, since no one plays with just the base dominion of a Pretender.

The main reason I'm suggesting to fiddle with the dominion is because you can't mod in a lot of the 'special abilities' or 'survivability abilities' for them. E.g., how can you give Luck to a Pretender? Simple answer is that you can't. That requires Astral magic on the Pretender, because not even giving them 'hard-coded' equipment will give them the special benefits of that equipment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why, then? My point was, though, that the Virtue seems to be intended to be a single-path Pretender, while the Arch Seraph is a multi-path Pretender. It doesn't really work out that way.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And yet you _want_ to worship a Prince of Death? This really isn't making sense to me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*sigh* Yes, I know. Just funny how they seem to get everything. They're not of this world, so they're awe-inspiring, so they get high Dominion. They're also very elemental, so they get high magical paths. What _don't_ they get? This doesn't sound like 'balance' to me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think it would be a bad thing to give them 1 in _every_ Path. I still don't think they'd be played very much. As far as the 3 path thing goes, you have two of them in the game, one Human, one Giant (the Smoking Mirror and the Jade Emperor). I like the Jade Emperor, but that's because I find his 100 points more or less worth the package (he also has very nice paths). The Smoking Mirror, OTOH, should be maybe 30 points, and he costs 70.

I'm trying to work with what you're able to mod, but it's clear no one thinks it's a good idea. I'll just stop working on the mod. Easy enough.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I play a good number of rainbows, and I must agree - your human chassis rainbow won't get feebleminded. Instead, when something manages to get a hit in on your rainbow, he's dead, losing 1 from all those magic paths and possibly causing you to purchase a lot of relatively useless priests to recall him, at a minimum wasting the time of priest mages.

And frankly - sending the rainbow out searching for sites is a -very- good way of having that happen. Random events that bring a monster swarm in, assassins, summonings, etc - all great ways to have a dead rainbow mage.

And dead rainbow mages aren't as much fun as dead puppies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well thank god THAT was nipped in the bud by the voices of reason. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Let the man mod, dammit!!!

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

Everybody's a critic, right? I'm not saying you shouldn't make your mod, just that humanoid pretenders are not necessarily as bad as you say.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I usually never play modded games, but what you're suggesting sounds fun. I find myself playing the same things over and over again, and while I don't dispute the intention and reasoning that the devs made it the way it is, I would be interested to try this mod to see where it would lead the game, both for me and the AI. After all, it's going to be a mod, therefore we can switch it on and off - it's not like suggesting that the core game should be changed. The good thing about mods is that you can in fact have it both ways - if the game is mod-friendly and allows for easy switching.

Cheers,

[ June 18, 2004, 00:35: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please don't say that. The reason I posted the mod rubric before I made the mod was for precisely the feedback I have received. People more experienced and more intelligent than I have made it plain that my mod was against the intentions of the designers, and made a cogent argument as to why the game is set up the way it is. I no longer see a reason to modify it.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I don't think anyone was saying not to Mod Scott. I tried to put it as just a side-note that is what the thematic intention of Dominion is. You can mod whatever and however you like. IT is no secret that the actual choices of Pretenders vs the Pretenders chosen based on stats is disproportionately low. I just don't think modding the Dominion is suddenly going to change it, since low Dominion is something that Human Pretenders can cope with since they are not combat oriented.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that was not the intention, Zen. However, what is the use of a mod that no one uses?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct, they are not. Where else do you get the points, though? You can reduce the costs of the human pretenders to 0, which implies they are all equal (and they are not). That gets you about the same number of points as my suggestion, but at the loss of intra-Rainbow balance.

And regarding the 'greater need for bigger Pretenders for Dominion', I think this is an effect of the game, rather than a driving force. You mention that, rather than increasing Dominion, ways of increasing the survivability of the Human Pretenders should be found. Well, I took the easiest way of doing that I could. I raised their starting Dominion. This increases their stats and their HPs without actually changing their base stats (which would be against the feel of the game).

However, this isn't anywhere near the boost that the Giants get from Dominion. When you look at it that way, why is Dominion cheaper for those who benefit from it more? From a game balance standpoint, this doesn't make sense.

I feel that modding the game is perhaps the best way to show the designers how a proposed change would improve game balance. I don't generally like the alternative.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And yet you _want_ to worship a Prince of Death? This really isn't making sense to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To you, to me, to Zen, certainly not - but that's an ethnocentric judgment if I ever saw one. It certainly would make sense to, say, a Dusk Elder or a Sauromancer. Fantasy litterature, movies and RPG are full of alien cultures that worship exactly that kind of guy. Eg, Blizzard's Diablo series, to give just a prominent exemple.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheap magic paths - ie, versatility. Human mages are more adaptable just for the reason they're less strongly attuned to a particular magic path. Makes a lot of sense to me, therefore I like it this way.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But then, why doesn't the above argument work for the Vampire Queen? What makes the Prince of Death any better than the Vampire Queen to their subjects?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry, but as I've tried to illustrate, I don't agree. You take a Rainbow, and you take a focussed mage, give them the same Dominion (even as low as 4), and it takes 3 Paths to make the Rainbow even come out even, and that's with vastly inferior stats. The reason I chose 4 is because that's the minimum I feel is necessary to grant reasonably quick and sure access to the powerful Rituals from the Path. Gift of Health, Forge of the Ancients, the Elemental Monarch Summons, and so on.

To me, if you're going to take a Pretender with a lot of 2s, the Pretender is going to be able to do a whole lot of nothing. You're going to have to rely on Empowerment or your National mages to cast any useful Rituals. About the only way to justify that kind of Pretender is to go the Coin/Skullcap/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry route, and that's extremely expensive in terms of Pearls, Pearls I think would be more effective casting Acashic Record and taking a more focused Pretender.

This is my big beef with Human Pretenders. They look like they should work for the generalist route, but they don't. Whether this is because of a lack of good Rituals to use at low path levels, an imbalance in cost of the Pretender, or relative ease in finding Independent Mages with 2-paths, I don't know. I'm just proposing an idea to make them more palatable on a quantitative level. It certainly makes them more viable, while not overshadowing the other Pretenders.

The only problem is one of theme.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are more points of comparison, though. For example, dragons benefit heavily from high dominion, but they start with only level 1. Titans have high dominion and benefit from it, but may be weaker than other combat pretenders with lower dominion, in other ways (e.g. Dragon is 50 points, but will tend to defeat 50-point giants in single combat unequipped, because they aren't as deadly and lack built-in armor.) The usual strength of the humans is their low cost for additional paths. Additional paths are useful for filling in national gaps and for broadening the possible spells and items (and magic-power-boosting items), as well as for site searching.

Many players do seem to think though that humans are a weaker choice than combat pretenders. I'm not clear how much of that is just the initial impressions of players who see the surface but not the potential of other choices. Having a combat monster may be easier to take advantage of, but it may be that when one does the right things with a rainbow, it ends up stronger in the end. I'm undecided, and my play style tends to favor middle-range compromises, including using human pretenders sometimes. The only time I tried to play all-out SC pretender, I was wiped out by the AI - no doubt partly because I was new to the play style.

I think you may be on to something though with the idea that humans should be less expensive, and that the cost is against the floor already. Dominion is one way to adjust that a bit, except that as others pointed out, they are the ones that don't need so high a dominion anyway, and it has thematic side-effects.

The costs and/or path costs of combat pretenders could be increased, but then that would weaken the strength of possible designs, so some players might not like that.

If it were possible (is it?) to mod negative costs to the human pretenders, that might be another approach. Humans would thus have even more points to play with.

You could also try modding spells so that some of the more popular spells required multiple paths in various combinations... but that would be a major change to gameplay.

PvK

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Personally, I'm not sure that the human pretenders should be so terribly frail and weak. I suppose it's partly a result of the quantity and variety of fantasy that I've read, but....

In fantasy, you have the wizards who are ultra powerful, but easy to kill. Think Fritz Leiber, think AD&D (most popular paper/dice fantasy role playing game in north america (vice Runequest in Europe, Last I knew)). Generally though - those mages don't get mistaken for deities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Then you have authors whose powerful mages seem to be on the verge of deification - almost impossible to kill, who have imbued themselves with near superhuman powers. Think Glen Cook's Black Company series - heads chopped off, the mages live, they had to be imprisoned in cairns for hundreds or thousands of years because they couldn't be killed.

That seems a lot more like a would be god than someone who is easier to kill than a sickly militia conscript, and who can only cast Air Shield as they begin their quest for Godhood. Would you worship a sickly crone with parlor tricks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I really think the humanistic pretenders need some beefing up. Ethereality, Luck, at least a couple of half-way impressive starting spells to impress the natives, something.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But then, why doesn't the above argument work for the Vampire Queen? What makes the Prince of Death any better than the Vampire Queen to their subjects?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm. In fantasy, Vampires are often depicted as secretive creatures, sometimes with a couple servants to wipe the webs that litter their coffins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif OTOH, Demon Lords or Princes usually come with a huge retinue of all sorts of minions. Never noticed that?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry, but as I've tried to illustrate, I don't agree. You take a Rainbow, and you take a focussed mage, give them the same Dominion (even as low as 4), and it takes 3 Paths to make the Rainbow even come out even, and that's with vastly inferior stats.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let me remind you it takes 7 colors to make a rainbow. As long as you aren't close to that number, your comparison is meaningless.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine. If that's your focus (assuming the 'and so on' doesn't cover every magic color), then obviously the rainbow mages aren't for you, and you're better with a more specialized pretender with 3 or 4 strong paths. But it's not due to an intrinsic limitation of the human mages, it's rather a self-imposed restriction due to your playstyle.

Quote:

To me, if you're going to take a Pretender with a lot of 2s, the Pretender is going to be able to do a whole lot of nothing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hrm. FYI a pretender with only 2's can get 5+ in every path through items only. And I'm not talking artifacts here, that's doable at Construction 6.

Quote:

You're going to have to rely on Empowerment or your National mages to cast any useful Rituals. About the only way to justify that kind of Pretender is to go the Coin/Skullcap/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry route, and that's extremely expensive in terms of Pearls, Pearls I think would be more effective casting Acashic Record and taking a more focused Pretender.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh wait, so Rings are expensive and Acashic isn't?

Quote:

This is my big beef with Human Pretenders. They look like they should work for the generalist route, but they don't. Whether this is because of a lack of good Rituals to use at low path levels, an imbalance in cost of the Pretender, or relative ease in finding Independent Mages with 2-paths, I don't know. I'm just proposing an idea to make them more palatable on a quantitative level. It certainly makes them more viable, while not overshadowing the other Pretenders. The only problem is one of theme.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, the only problem (and that's your problem, not anyone else's) is you want the human mages to compete with the Titans on their ground. Which, of course, is hopeless.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're damn right I do. He wants to kill just about everyone and make the world into a land of death. I want to kill everyone. Becoming a demilich appeals to me, and makes for an excellent sign-up bonus. Where do I sign up?

Sure, YOU don't want to worship him, but that's why you get to be a Soulless after you die.

[ June 18, 2004, 04:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've noticed that those minions are normally mindbLasted into submission, which isn't really willing, IMO.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">According to Zen, 4 paths at 3 would be the closest thing to 'normal' Raibows you get, and 4 is just as close to 1 as it is to 7.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the restriction is shared by many, it seems, since very few people seem to use human Pretenders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you start with 2 in every path... do Rings of Wizardry stack? I assume not, since very few magic items do. Then you'd have a Ring of Wizardry, a Ring of Sorcery, a Staff of Elemental Mastery... that's 4 in everything. You could use that Air/Blood robe, though I doubt many do. Circumstantially, you could have 5. But I guess I'm missing where you could have 5 in everything at Construction 6. Let me renew my familiarity with the MIQR and get back to you.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">140 Pearls (the price of the quoted equipment) gets you almost 6 Acashics. Acashic, unlike the equipment, gives you an immediate and permanent gem income back. There's also the fact that the early Acashics make the later Acashics possibly cheaper, through the gem income.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that's true, why aren't the human pretenders used more often?

It is true that I don't see the point of true Rainbows. If you use them for site-searching, they're very slow, and might not even find sites that your other mages can use. This means that the gems from those sites will either be saved so the Pretender can use them (once he stops searching), or they will be alchemized (at extreme cost) into a gem that can be used by other mages.

You're not going to have a Bless effect, the impact of which varies by nation.

Your superior Research over other Pretenders doesn't matter when it's most important, in the early game, because you're site-searching.

*shrugs* Where is the benefit over, say, a Great Mother with 4N/4E/3S, who can cast Gift of Health after Construction 4, can cast Acashic naturally, and Forge before spending over 100 gems that would have been halved under the Forge?

If you want to talk about site-searching, my Great Mother will find almost any site that I need to find early (before Acashic kicks in). Nature sites for Nature gem income, and a wide variety of possible effects (including Nature mages that I may not have nationally), Earth sites for Earth gems and money, and Astral sites for Astral gems (for Acashic).

I don't see the appeal of Rainbows under such conditions.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

Acashic Record, IMO, is only effective if you crank the site frequency way up (this both increases the success rate and number of sites found, and decreases the relative costs by giving everyone more gem income). 25 pearls to often find nothing? No thanks, I'll use the path-specific spells for a gem or two each, or send some mages to search the old fashioned way for no gems at all.

Granted, a lot of people *do* turn the site frequency way up, but I don't (at least in SP) - magic dominates the endgame enough already, increasing the site frequency only accelerates this.

You also neglect the awesome research power of rainbows. Titanoids can't match this, partly because of their new path cost and partly because of their chassis cost.

I think the introduction of the bless system did nerf the old "2 or 3 of everything" rainbow, for some nations. But others don't rely on their bless effect (base Ulm comes to mind - they could really use a strong researcher and good site searcher, too).

Also, you don't need the Elemental Staff/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry for high-path-requiring rituals; for rituals you only need to boost one path at a time (or occasionally two for something like Astral Corruption, King of Banefires, Father Illearth etc.) Make some individual path boosting items (which are much cheaper) and swap them around. Humanoids have plenty of item slots to play with (except the archmage on horse or freak, who is handicapped by his inability to wear boots of earth, so don't take him if you want earth). ES/RoS/RoW give research bonuses to a rainbow, and make him stronger on the battlefield, but they aren't really needed for rituals.

Rainbows aren't the best for path 5+ spells like elemental courts, globals, etc - although they can cast them the usually require items to do so. They really excel at research, site searching and forging (few items and even fewer magic sites require more than 3 in a path).

And finally, only some nations/themes really require strong dominion (principally Ermor and extreme temperature lovers). Yes, I know it's the name of the game, but dominion isn't the only way to win or defeat enemies. SC pretenders want dominion over their battlefields, but conventional armies can live without it. Most nations can spread dominion by preaching or building temples even if their god's dominion strength is low. Later in the game, especially on large maps, the dominion strength at initial purchase is less important because of the temple boost, more preaching and overall more sources of dominion. Nations with strong and/or cheap priests, inquisitors, cheap temples, or blood sacrifice (although this costs more than other methods) are particularly good at getting along with lower dominion strengths. I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I had kind of given up figuring out how to balance humanoids with titans. But I had a few ideas, which might make them more appealing.

- Lower the cost of all humanoid pretenders to 0. The cost of raising dominion is already prohibitive. When you consider that making an 8-path rainbow Ghost King costs only 80 points more than a humanoid, you would have to be a complete moron to go with the humanoid. The Ghost King comes with the full Vampire Queen list of goodies (less immortality and regeneration), comes with a level of death magic, is obviously a first-class supercombatant, and can do anything a humanoid can do.

For example:

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 261 points

Even by using the humanoid in the manner most suited to the chassis, the difference is negligible. The GK's extra toys are indisputably worth 60 points. Any deviation from the basic rainbow template, be it higher dominion or fewer paths will only decrease the gap.

Now let's look at a "free" Frost Father...

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 206 points

Much more reasonable. The Frost Father is going to have lots of points left over for castles and scales. I would imagine humans would have a better idea how to rule an empire than a ghost anyways, so having excellent scales would be a fitting role for a human. Losing the SC power of a pretender god, but gaining a rainbow mage and very fortuitous scales might tempt some people to go the humanoid route.

Just make them all free, like the Oracle and Manticore and Nataraja mkay?

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The path-specific spells are also nice (I've underestimated them for a long time). 'Manual' searching is too slow.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The most common frequency I've seen here is 50. That would mean in mountains, the chance is 75%. Assuming that I know how the site placement works, that would mean an average of 3 sites in 'good' areas. That's not 'often nothing'. I'm certainly not saying you should spam Acashic all over the place.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The difference in research isn't that great, and if you're site-searching, you're not researching.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Possibly. With Ulm, though, I want Forge up ASAP. That requires a 4 Earth for reliability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Er, okay? What Rituals are you speaking of, here?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They suffer from severe overwork. If I can only do one thing a turn with my Pretender, I want the most effective return possible. I don't feel I get that with Rainbows.

[quote]I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion. /QUOTE]

I used the number that other people told me was most common in MP games. I'll try to get better data from now on.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I already mentioned this. However, you do this, and you lose the balance between the Human Pretenders, because they're not all made alike.

I mean, why would you take the Crone then? I would be hard-pressed to reason my way out of taking the Enchantress.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the crone has FOUR misc slots for one thing. That dosen't suck. Of course the Freak Lord would be wholly superior to the Archmage then, having THREE misc slots and trample, etc. You could tweak here and there... give the Archmage dominion 2 to start maybe.

But in most cases, I would suggest you recost pretenders rather than change their abilities. It's a lot easier to get the community to accept a new price for a unit than to understand why you decided to give the Archmage four arm slots =).

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

And I don't see many human players being willing to forge the more powerful, hard to get, magic boosting items for an opponent.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So in your view 1 path is just as 'rainbowish' as 7? I'm not Zen, but I'm pretty confident he would call those 4 paths a minimum to get the 'rainbow' label.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pure theory. In practice a true rainbow with brains will use a Hammer to forge these rings. Ie, 90 pearls, about 3.5 ARs.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds like you're assuming equipment is always forged out of purpose.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great, I've no problem with that, that's a perfectly valid point of view. The only thing I want to point out is the method you use to demonstrate it - ie, designing a decent pretender who capitalizes on his/her strengths, and then comparing him/her to an human mage who doesn't. It makes humans look worse than they are by several orders of magnitude. As if they needed that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe, but that's besides the point I'm discussing.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They aren't slow at searching, a rainbow 2 mage gives you about 75%-80% of all magic sites in a province every other turn. Level 3 and four sites are very rare.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here goes...

Starshine Skullcap = S3
Crystal Coin = S4
Ring of Sorcery = S5 D3 N3 B3
Ring of Magery (lose the coin) = F3 A3 W3 E3 S5 D4 N4 B4
Staff of Elemental Mastery = F4 A4 W4 E4 S5 D4 N4 B4
Robe of the Archmagi = All paths 5, Astral 6

From there you can basicly boost yourself to cast any ritual in the game. Robe of the Magi probably isn't a great idea on a humanoid pretender, but it's there.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With 2S + 2E:

Forge a Starshine Skullcap. Go to 3S.
Forge a Crystal Coin. Go to 4S.
Forge a Ring of Sorcery. Go to 5S + 3 in all Sorcery paths.
Forge a Ring of Wizardry. Go to 3 in all Elemental paths, 4 in all Sorcery Paths, and stay at 5 Astral.
Forge a Staff of Elemental Mastery. Go to 4 in all Elemental paths.

That's a way to get to at _least_ 4 in all paths starting in 2 in all paths... of course, that's a VERY specific set of forges you have to make. From here, you can remove the Helm for a Fire Helm or Air Helm (go to 5 Air or Fire), Earth boots for 5 Earth, Robe of the Sea for 5 Water, Thistle Mace for 5 Nature, Skullface for 5 Death, and I'm not sure if you want to worry about Blood, but there are several options.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm aware of that. However, 'every other turn' is too slow. That's half the rate of expansion, and that's assuming you have a searcher for each army you have. Much easier is simply to stay in your capital and cast site-searching spells, which DO search at the rate of your expansion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's if an Astral 1 mage is ever in combat with her. It's not like I'm planning to send that Pretender into combat. The only way I see it likely that you're attacking my Pretender with Astral Mages is if you're storming my capital, in which case I would think that I've already lost.

She's also no less survivable than a Human Rainbow that has 3 Astral. Or do you normally raise your Astral Magic on your Rainbows to the 6 range as well?

The Forge thing, though, I grant you. But that argument can be said for any Global. Also, the faster you get Forge up, the longer it _should_ Last, due to research constraints. Therefore, IF you want Forge up, you'd be better off with a Pretender with 4E instead of a Rainbow-2, IMO.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No need to, you just have script your rainbow for (Returnning) since he's not supposed to see battles. The only path I'd be tempted to raise above 3 is earth, to get WR immunity without having to rely on a Robe of Shadows.

In my experience, it's much harder to kill a mage who knows how to protect himself and doesn't want to fight, than a Great Mother.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:50: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that Trampling often sucks because the unit won't use other attacks (such as ultra-powerful swords / axes) unless the opponent is too large to trample. This is one reason I've stopped using the Earth Mother, and I certainly wouldn't want a fragile little Freak trampling. There's still the 3 misc slots, true, and more importantly the Freak's Fear ability, higher defense and precision, and Last but not least, 3 encumbrance vice the Archmage's 5, compared to the archmage's only advantage, movement 28 vice 16.

When you look at it that way (Fear, 3 misc, better stats, better encumbrance) the Freak is a bargain at 10 points more than the Archmage. But you can't raise the price on the Freaklord, because already no one takes him, so ....

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm aware of that. However, 'every other turn' is too slow. That's half the rate of expansion, and that's assuming you have a searcher for each army you have. Much easier is simply to stay in your capital and cast site-searching spells, which DO search at the rate of your expansion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So by the time you have two conquering armies, you already have about 14-16 mages casting site searching spells every turn, using about 30 gems/slaves consisting of all types per turn? I'm impressed...

Quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's if an Astral 1 mage is ever in combat with her. It's not like I'm planning to send that Pretender into combat. The only way I see it likely that you're attacking my Pretender with Astral Mages is if you're storming my capital, in which case I would think that I've already lost.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you use the Great Mother as a stay-at-home rainbow mage, because of her improved ability to resist assassination?

PvK

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not exactly. When I do this, I would have 3-4 mages casting the searching spells that my national mages can cast. This doesn't search as well as a Rainbow, true, but I'm also guaranteed to be able to make full use of most if not all of the gems I _do_ find.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Survivability is an issue, but besides that, she's cheaper, which is the entire problem. The difference in cost between an E4/S3/N4 Great Mother and an E4/S3/N4 Human Pretender is not significant enough for me to take the Human Pretender, when you consider that the Human Pretender has a 2 lower _base_ Dominion. The balance point is Dominion 5, where the difference in cost is only 7 points. Anything higher helps the Great Mother, who is _also_ the person who gains the most benefits from that Dominion. I see this as a balance issue.

Another interesting case is that of the Daughter of the Land, who makes perhaps the best 'giant rainbow', because she generates her own Clams and she has a higher base Dominion.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You didn't post numbers about Earth Mother with those magics versus a human pretender most suited to the task, propably some kind of a druid for initial Nature magic. Also, I would be interested to see how Nagas compare. Could you please post the differences (in points) between the three?

Human pretenders really seem to be wrecked when going for fours... Maybe they should have their base magic sttarting from two, this would give them a chance to let them take four in atleast one path.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certainly. I thought people were basically ignoring the numbers, so I didn't include them in the Last post. But, to be thorough:

Great Mother: 75 points
Master Druid: 55 points
Great Enchantress: 55 points
Naga: 100 points
(I include the Great Enchantress even though she isn't optimal because her ability is much better than the human average.)

Increasing Nature to 4 --

Great Mother: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points
Master Druid: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points
Great Enchantress: 10 + 16 + 24 + 32 = 82 points
Naga: 8 + 16 = 24 points

Increasing Earth to 4 --

Great Mother: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points
Master Druid: 10 + 16 + 24 + 32 = 82 points
Great Enchantress: 10 + 16 + 24 + 32 = 82 points
Naga: 20 + 16 + 24 + 32 = 92 points

Increasing Astral to 3 --

Great Mother: 80 + 16 + 24 = 120 points
Master Druid: 10 + 16 + 24 = 50 points
Great Enchantress: 8 + 16 = 24 points
Naga: 20 + 16 + 24 = 60 points

Totals:

Great Mother: 75 + 48 + 48 + 120 = 291 points
Master Druid: 55 + 48 + 82 + 50 = 235 points
Great Enchantress: 55 + 82 + 82 + 24 = 243 points
Naga: 100 + 24 + 92 + 60 = 276 points

This is with the Great Mother having a Dominion 2 higher than the rest. If you give them all at least a Dominion of 3 (I hope no one has a problem with this), you get:

Great Mother: 0
Master Druid: 7 + 14 = 21 points
Great Enchantress: 7 + 14 = 21 points
Naga: 7 + 14 = 21 points

So we add 21 points to each of the other chassis, for:

Great Mother: 291 points
Master Druid: 235 + 21 = 256 points
Great Enchantress: 243 + 21 = 264 points
Naga: 276 + 21 = 297 points

This is at 3 Dominion. Any increase in Dominion at this point will give the Great Mother 14 points more than the rest. Working this up a bit... at 4 Dominion:

Great Mother: 298 points
Master Druid: 277 points
Great Enchantress: 285 points
Naga: 318 points

At 5 Dominion:

Great Mother: 312 points
Master Druid: 305 points
Great Enchantress: 313 points
Naga: 346 points

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you subtract 65 points from the Naga's total, you will see what giving human a 2-path does for them. (65 = 45 to drop the Naga's cost to human levels, +10 for the extra cost for the first added path, +10 for the extra cost for the second added path)

Hope this helps.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I think these numbers demonstrate the real problem with the humanoids: low new path cost only decreases the cost to get level 1 in that path. It doesn't change the cost to get level 2, 3, 4, etc.

There was a proposal a while back to give some pretender forms a new ability: increasing the level of a magic path would cost less (or more) points. If humanoids paid only 50% of normal points to increase the level of a path, in addition to their low new path cost, they could be real magical powerhouses and have strong blessings too. (This would of course be offset by their low dominion and physical weakness, but it would make them much more interesting to play.)

Or, of course, more humanoids could start with more and/or higher level paths. Frost father water 2 air 1, master druid nature 2 earth 1, crone astral 1 death 1 nature 1, great enchantress astral 2 nature 1, great warlock fire 1 astral 1 blood 1, etc. At the same costs they have now, this would make it significantly cheaper to get to higher levels of magic in those paths, while also making them more different from each other by having preferred paths. This would tend to encourage a 2-3 paths at level 4-6 humanoid rather than a 5-7 paths at level 2-3 one - although you would still be able to do either.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

Seems like that might be a good idea (altering the base path costs by a factor, and then giving that sort of factor as an advantage to pretenders like the humans).

I'll be interested to hear the opinions of folks who have played humanoids and rainbows successfully as to whether they think this could be unbalanced for strong RB/human players.

PvK

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I say.

Hey, why don't I do it?
Well, let's see if I find the time to do the mod.
(doesn't look good. I'm in the midst of doing a 'scenario', catched a cold lately and have some deadlines to cope with in RL)

A.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I think if you were to give a few of the various humanoids several natural paths and a high (60-80) path cost this could help solve the problem with lack of diversity among human pretenders.

Right now they are all used as rainbow mages, and one rainbow mage is much like another. Making some of them ineffective in that role, for instance giving the druid 2 points in all four sorcery paths and prohibitive path cost with elements (just an example) would make a powerful multi role mage with a good potential blessing (maybe even dual 9s) which is still not a rainbow mage.

Such creatures would still be weak in combat and (unless used with a nation that has excellent blessability) probably worse than regular rainbow mages at more or less everything. But at least there would be some diversity.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod
 

I have decided to take it upon myself to do a minor Mod (I'm still working on the Spell Ref Liga! No worries).

Look for it later tonight with Pretender modifications.