What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

I cant figure out the Shamen's niche, and don't really dig his raison d'etre.

It seems the only spells with his name written on them in big, shiny letters is "summon coatl", which I dislike because of its cost.

People have mentioned that he makes an ok c-slave, but with Ctis, I cant really use him as such much, since it is either with a rare random on my marsh/sauromancers, or on another Shaman, and I dont really know what to do with him then; and 110 gold isnt really dirt cheap either (well compared to other slaves out there).

Is he a researcher type? I suppose that would work with some magic scales, considering his sacred upkeep....

So what do YOU use him for? (Especially tips on early- mid game appreciated here)?

Thanks much in advance

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

He's the best researcher, aside from indies, that you can get your scaly mitts on. And, aside from Couatl, they're good as communion slaves.

Edit: I'd like to add that libraries are very common sites that don't need to be searched.

[ June 20, 2004, 12:23: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

They make great pets.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

They aren't as good for C'tis as they are for non-nature nations (when you find indie shamans).

Their sacred attribute makes them somewhat mediocre researchers.

They do shine in two areas.
One is they can commune and make relief/mass protection squads. Of course, I like Miasma the best so that's using 440 gold instead of a 220 gold marshmaster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The other is that they can arcane probe for astral sites and then make some handy 1S items, like AMA and luck ammy (in addition to the arcane probing)

For C'tis, they aren't great but they aren't useless, imo, kind of run of the mill. For nations that can't get access to relief/mass protection, they are highly useful.

- Kel

[ June 20, 2004, 16:45: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

They may not seem like much, but believe me I wasn't happy to see him replaced by a FD mage in the new desert tombs. Most of these have been mentioned, but here's my list.

1) mind deul
2) healing light
3) with banner of the northern star and power of the spheres can cast the very good S3 combat spells. (especially nice with miasma and it's water gem income... clams for everybody!)
4) Arcane Probing, Harspex w/ thistle mace
5) can forge luck pendant, antimagic amulet
6) a really nice communion slave
7) C'tis' cheapest researcher

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Astral is NICE. Even one point. Starshine Skullcap or Crystal coin is enough to let you start making Skullcaps en masse, and you already get Nature-2 mages to get Thistle maces...

I view Couatl as a quaranteed way to give you access to Astral-2 Shamans if everything else fails. It is expensive, but you don't really need more than one or maybe two Couatls: one equipped with Starshine Skullcap and Moonvine Bracelet (it was +Astral, not +Nature, wasn't it?) is very nice Astral 5 if you are after that, and the same equipment with some Nature boosters given to one of your Shamans or Astral Sauromancers/ Marshmasters lets them to forge more Moonvine bracelets. Aand after THAT you have access S3 mages able to cast Acashic Record without need for more Couatls.

Shamans are not something to build a strategy for, but I think C'tis does better with them than without.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Thanks!

- Moonvine bracelets give +nature, not +astral

- I cant forge any +astral items with a shaman, however, so that means I need to cast Coatl (expensive, and also level 7 conjuration! ouch, definately not early-mid game for me), or put some astral on my pretender.

I'm a huge fan of starshine skullcaps; I also love astral nations (my favorite is Tien Chi, not really an "astral nation", but as S&A I get astral 2 before too long).
Banner of the Northern Star is of course great -- but I'll be damned if I can get a shaman to make one.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops... I never remember that right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Quote:

- I cant forge any +astral items with a shaman, however, so that means I need to cast Coatl (expensive, and also level 7 conjuration! ouch, definately not early-mid game for me), or put some astral on my pretender.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you have luck wíth sites you could Empower one of your shamans. 30 pearls vs 40 gems... You would have no natural Astral-3 mage, though. Also, you could wish to be lucky with independents, but as Crystal Amazons are very rare you cannot count on it.

Quote:

I'm a huge fan of starshine skullcaps; I also love astral nations (my favorite is Tien Chi, not really an "astral nation", but as S&A I get astral 2 before too long). Banner of the Northern Star is of course great -- but I'll be damned if I can get a shaman to make one.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Empower + Skullcap. As I said before, 30 pearls. Besides, it is faster than researching for Couatl. If you have no Astral income at all you don't need Skullcaps, and if you do you will be able to empower one of the shamans before or later.

Still, it's not an easy way to get even mediocre Astral mages.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Well your pretender god may be able to forge the needed items, but remember with arcane probing, there's a decent chance of finding some kind of 2-astral mage out there, even if you don't have the SS on your god.

And if you don't have astral on your pretender, I'm betting you have a combat avatar... which means the really important astral items are the pendant and amulet anyway.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research. A magic scale makes sense with C'tis anyway (fatigue help with Raise Dead and the like is really good for the Sauromancers).

One final way to get Shamen to forge +path items is to cast Forge, which requires some earth gems and an Earth pretender. Earth is far better on a survivability front than Astral, and lends itself well to a Shaman-rush Communion.

The other nice use for the Shaman is to Forge the basic nature items like Wineskins that you probably don't want your Sauromancers to be busy with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

I'd agree that he looks like a sensible researcher: 3,6 Gold Upkeep per turn for 4 RP does make some sense indeed...

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Researchers - assuming a magic scale

Site searchers - Arcane probing, Haruspex with a Mace

Curse - the bane of most SCs

Behemoth enhancers - etherealize them first, can also cast Luck on them, and keep them healthy with Healing Light

Communion - using shamen as both slaves and masters, gives access to many useful level 3+ astral and nature spells (see LIZARDS GONE WILD in Alex's thread)

Protection vs hostile rituals like Mind Hunt or scrying spells

Forging - many useful items available at astral-1 & nature 1-2 (again, the Mace)

Cheap enough to be worth risking even if the opposition can field better (but more expensive) mind duellists - eg, vs Mystics, out of 36 tries you win 10, draw 5 , and lose 21. Weighted results: (15 * 180 - 26 * 110) / 36 = 4.44 gold - that's your expected relative loss to Arco in mage value, so it's insignificant enough to take the risk. Don't forget to use Light of the Northern Stars in these situations though.

That's all I can think of just now, but I'm sure I'm missing lots of other things shamen are good for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't like to have to spend 110gp for 4 res a turn...yuk

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The initial cost is not particularly important to a sacred mage, which the Shaman is. It is the most cost effective researcher that C'Tis has. It also ranks just behind the Vaetti hag at 11th place in long term efficiency.

[ June 21, 2004, 14:38: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep. And a mixed formation of vine men, manikins and longdead/soulless/corpse men is less vulnerable to banishment - some of the banishment is wasted on the vine men. The whole mess is still immune to poison and unroutable, so back them up with some poison slingers and have fun.

However in order to actually mix them in formation you need a commander with some decent normal and undead leadership, which usually means a Sauromancer with sceptre of authority for me. You can fake it by putting two squads in the same place in setup, but they may not mix as evenly so banish will still be able to target concentrations of undead.

Quote:

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better? (You can ask that kind of question about a lot of cheap national mages - but the Shaman has an answer.) The Shaman gives C'tis some flexibility - astral is a path that they don't otherwise have (except through randoms - and a Sauromancer with his random in astral should be leading a communion of shaman if he appears on the battlefield at all) and is useful even at low levels.

Please change the Keeper to 1 Fire, 1 Death, 1 Astral. Appropriate and useful (although still probably not as useful as the Shaman - no access to Relief or healing spells, can't forge supply items; but still usable as a communion slave, researcher, forger or site scryer).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Shaman also provide some supplies just by being there. Minor but handy.

Really, I think their roles as relief casters and supply providers (both for their own nature magic and supply items they forge) are easy to underestimate. Although you could argue Desert Tombs needs them less, they don't have less need for Arcane Probing, communion slaves and cheap sacred researchers. If the Keeper's not going to be sacred he could at least be a point better researcher than the Shaman.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Thanks for all of this.

A follow-up question:

I also got excited about poison slingers and undead synergizing well, but I just fail to be able to get my slingers to work. I fail miserably in every single setup I have tried.
In fact, I get the majority of them killed no matter what, unless I have vastly superior forces, in which case I win (or would win) without them.

It seems that the poison slingers also have a unoverridable urge to run out and attack enemies with their daggers -- at times, at least it seems so to me, when they must have at least 1 shot left (that is, before battle round 7). Why is this?

Where do you put them on the battlefield that they can hit enemies and not kill themselves?

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bless, Preach, and Build Temples. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif For an answer that is somewhat conducive to discussion, however, I would use the Keepers to summon your Banefire Archers. All they need is a single +Death item (which your Sauromancers are guaranteed able to make). That's a 110g sacred mage (I can only believe the lack of sacred is an oversight) doing a job that would otherwise need a 180g non-sacred mage.

Also, if I have a Keeper building my temples, I don't have to build a Hierodule to build my Temples, since I'm already going to have Keepers for Research purposes anyway.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that would be a singularly bad idea. They already have easy access to Banefire, do you really want them to have Astral Fires as well? And that's not counting Nether Darts, either...

This also ignores the fact that you are advocating to give C'tis a researcher in the top 10 in the game and you give Desert Tombs access to Astral items that really don't belong there.

I mean, how hard is it to find Shamen in independent provinces, anyway?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I would argue that yes, indeed, Desert Tombs has less need of communion slaves and Astral magic, due to an unlimited supply of undead troops. There is only _one_ nation in the game that gets Astral Magic, Death Magic, AND Unholy priests, and that's BE Ermor, and it pays a stiff penalty for it.

I really think that the Keeper's nonsacredness is an anomaly. I mean, can anyone name another priest that isn't sacred?

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cast fire spells with a skull of fire and phoenix power? Also site searching with the same items. Not as generally useful as the Shaman perhaps.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cast fire spells with a skull of fire and phoenix power? Also site searching with the same items. Not as generally useful as the Shaman perhaps. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Giving them a Skull Staff and having them summon Banefire archers in droves is much more fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Unfortunately all those nice things that you can now do with the keeper were things you could already do with either a heriodule or a saromancer.

Losing all your nature and astral magic sucks. No amulet of MR, no pendant of luck, no magic deul, no arcane probing, no communion (ergo no relief, astral healing, antimagic). He's not better than the shaman.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You still have all of these ones through the randoms on your sauromancers.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine Graeme. But the next time you cast relief with a saromancer, be sure to let me know.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does being a patronizing ******* come naturally to you, or do you have to work at it?

You'll notice that I specifically kept only those things that could be done with either 1 nature or 1 astral.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The point is that losing the shaman is a negative, and gaining the keeper is a small consolation. By implying that the random pick of the Sauromancer could make up for this loss, you mislead players. And yes, if you continue to nit-pick my Posts, I suppose I'll have to continue to patronize you.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, by pointing out that the sauromancer can forge the astral 1 items and cast the searching spell I'm correcting your mistake. Incorrect information is useless information.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's nice to see that you're committed to making worthless Posts. You made a statement that just so happened to be completely wrong, so you'll have to expect people to call you on it. There's an awful lot of people who read these Posts and use the information for their own purposes, so its vital that the correct information be presented.

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

You speak as if Sauromancers came with a guaranteed astral or nature pick.

There's a 1 in 8 chance, I've had games where I've waited until far into the midgame before getting a mage with the appropriate skill. In fact, there's an extremely small chance that you may NEVER get an astral mage. Sure, eventually you are probably going to get one... but it's not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.

Additionally, neither the keeper or sauromancer will ever be a decent communion slave, be able to cast healing light or contact couatil. The keeper does nothing that your sauromancers could not already do.. save banish and build temples.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You tell me how that is misleading. You tell me how your keeper is going to forge astral items. The fact that the Sauromancer has a random pick is irrelevant. He always had a random pick. The point is that the keeper is less useful than the shaman. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ June 22, 2004, 00:44: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Losing all your nature and astral magic sucks.No amulet of MR, no pendant of luck, no magic deul, no arcane probing,"

Since you still have easy access to all of these things (With the standard multiple sauromancer per turn recruitment), you hardly lose all of your nature and astral magic. It's as silly as saying that Abysia has no access to water magic. They do, it just takes a while sometimes for it to show up.

Desert tombs also doesn't really need communion that badly, since they have death 3 and 4 mages, that can cast drain life to keep their fatigue within reasonable levels.

[ June 22, 2004, 01:12: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: What am I supposed to do with Shamen?
 

Just thought I'd find this (page 3) to state:

I LOVE Shamen now!

Healing! Healing! Forging! Healing! Searching! Forging! Summoning! Yum....

thanks for enlightening me!