Joys of Jotun
 

Just tried these fellows out for the first time and am having a bLast. Giants are fun!!!

I chose son of Niefel for my pretender (W9) but soon noticed that I can basically buy an identical unit at my home castle! (Under Niefel theme). So I will restart the scenario with a diff pretender for some more variety.

In the meantime I've been playing with the units and so far I REALLY like the Jotun Javlineers. They throw a javilin (more like a tree trunk) about the same distance as a shortbow. And some nice damage. Then they kick over to light infantry. Not too shabby!

Feel free to make any suggestions or add any bits of wisdom regarding Jotun here!

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Have you discovered the joys of Jotun spearmen yet? If not, I suggest you study up on the mechanics and effectiveness of repel.

EDIT: Even more fun may be had by properly-equipped Jotun commanders trampling lesser beings. Squish, squish.

As for Jotuns, in general, being fun, I can't help but agree. The proof is in my AAR ...

[ June 21, 2004, 20:19: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Speaking of joy, my Niefel Jarl prophet with nature 9 blessing got heroic quickness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif With Wraith sword and Flying boots, not only that the enemies die, they can't even run fast enough to flee the field alive. And if someone does manage to hit him in the process, well, you wouldn't like him when he's angry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Panzers (niefel jarls) with wraith swords and elemental armor are a joy...my favorite nation to play even if they dont have a cost effective researcher

frosted flake

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not about variety, it's about packs of Niefel Jarls with Wraith Swords, striking and slaying with impunity!

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Not a strategy in itself...but cool....is that when you raise skeletons on the battlefield you get giant ones that are pretty darn nice.

niefel giant are da bomb

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Here is something interesting.

I started a new campaign for Jotun (Niefel theme-I tried all three and Niefel is my favorite) and looked at a couple of different pretenders. I was trying to find someone I could combine Air & Water to get some good blessings but ended up going water only because the others were Air only and I wanted that W9 blessing. What was so interesting that when trying the Frost Father, or Sage, or any Human for that matter, getting up to level 9 was MUCH more expensive in points than when I did either the Son of Neifel or the Blue Dragon. So I settled on the Blue Dragon like Arryn uses in his big game. With him I get a powerful mage (frost father in human form) and a regular tank on the battlefield.

Anybody know why the magic point cost ramps up more steeply for the humans? I would think it would be the opposite....

Oh and I'm having fun with a Niefel Jarl and about a dozen Frost Giants mixed in with some mercs. We've been bulldozing through enemy territory for some time!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Magic cost depends on the number of increases you've made, so the cost to go from 2-9 on a dragon is about the same as the cost to go from 0-7 on a human.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

It is 8*# of Steps in Path.

So a Son of Niefel starts with 2, and you take them up to 9. The costs are:

2 - 3: 8
3 - 4: 16
4 - 5: 24
5 - 6: 32
6 - 7: 40
7 - 8: 48
8 - 9: 56

Total: 224 DPoints

For a Frost Father they have to go one more step up, since they start with 1 Water.

Add another 64 DPoints to the total to get him to Water 9.

This is why it is usually only feasible to get a single "9" Blessing and usually only with units that at the very least have 2 in the initial Path, and best case, 3.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

okay so really the difference I was seeing was the 18 points to get to level 2. Hmm...it seem like 50 or more points but I'll take your guys' word for it. But it made a difference to me on the scales so I had to go with the dragon.

If by chance I test those numbers and get something different, I will post it here.

Thanks,

ef

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a 64 point difference, since the frost father needs to increase his path one time more than the Son of Niefel. He pays the same cost to get to level 8 that the Son of Niefel pays to get to level 9. The frost father then has to pay another 8*8 = 64 points to get his eighth increase in water magic.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

OH!

I'm looking at it the wrong way. It's the # of times you go up that determines the cost. Hence, zen's comment about trying to start with level 3.

Okay, got it.

Thanks.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure Arryn used a Wyrm.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure Arryn used a Wyrm. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And it's her big game.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Magic cost depends on the number of increases you've made, so the cost to go from 2-9 on a dragon is about the same as the cost to go from 0-7 on a human. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically, it's as Graeme says. To be a little more specific:

To increase a path the nth time requires 8n points. The exception occurs when you start with 0 in a path. In that case, the first increase's cost (8) is replaced by the path cost listed for the Pretender (for humans, this is generally 10).

To increase the path from 1 to 2 after that costs 16, as that is the second increase. This is not very intuitive, so make sure you realize this.


Note that Dominion increases work the same way, except everyone starts with at least 1 Dominion, and the nth increase costs 7n points instead of 8n.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

D'OH!

-and-

D'OH! Again.....

Yeah I picked that up from another thread of hers I read just a bit ago. Well being a guy I pretty much have to be beat over the head with important details to get them. And I'll probably forget anyway.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure Arryn used a Wyrm. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And it's her big game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed. Thanks Lint. And Norfleet is right, my AAR uses a Wyrm. My thinking is either select a pretender to be a pure SC, or to be a pure mage-researcher, and be the best at that choice that you can be. Rather than play a hybrid pretender and be mediocre at both tasks, or spend way too many DPs and hurt your nation in other ways.

This is very much akin to the nearly 30-year-old debate in D&D regarding playing single-class characters versus playing multiclass ones.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

AND....

So now my Blue Dragon sits crippled and useless at one of my cities. Licking his wounds (or drooling more like).

Weakened
Limp
Feebleminded
**Unable to change shape! It could kill him!**

And then to add insult to injury my Prophet gets killed in the Arena by a Ghost King Pretender that the AI sent.

My offensive has lost quite a bit of momentum although I am rapidly building up forces again. Even with butt-kicking giants this is no cake walk!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the lesson there is to never send an important commander into the Arena. The risk is never worth the reward.

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Well, lesson learned.

He had heroic toughness (about 284 hit points) which made me feel a bit cocky. Heck, I sent him in with no equipment! (It's turn 35 and I haven't been forging anything). And he DID win the first 3 fights so quickly it wasn't even funny.

He was a flippin' Frost Giant for Pete's sake!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was mistake #2. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mistake #3 ...

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

Well here is what I've been basically been doing with my spell casters.

Everyone has been drafted. I have Gyga, Skratti, as well as Jarls, and the other one (the priest-I can't remember his title) everyone fights. Even my pretender.

Why? Well, it plopped me down in the middle of the map and I have been scrambling on almost 4 fronts to keep my enemies at bay. The spell casters HAVE made a difference. Plus the sacred troops getting blessed by the priestly types (My pretender is W9) really helps in the battle.

As far as researh goes, I found a library around turn 11 or so and am up to about 12-15 sages researching away. By the way I have my settings at Drain 3 and magic research to very difficult (My premise being that the ethereal and astral upheaval caused by the demise/departure of GOD has made magic research difficult and dangerous). Also, indies at 9 (I always do this).

So anyway, I have my sages pecking away at construction and just hit level 4 around turn 40 Last night.

I feel it's important to expand and push my borders out a bit not only for the extra income but also I'm trying to find the bottlenecks (Really powerful indies, mountains, ocean, etc) which I can then plug and let my empire grow for a bit.

I know my overall strategy isn't fine-tuned for maximum magical developement - it's more of a wartime economy type push I go after with magic being of lower priority (not by much - just lower).

I'm just playing around you know? It's a reason I avoid MP games. The talk I see of fine-tuning these strategies to get a specific spell by turn 3 so they can use it turn 5 and have clams being made by turn 11...all that kinda kills the joy for me.

Every time I play I do something completely different. This game was the first time I put my pretender on the front line so much. And it was a riot! Watching the little people fleeing from my dragon. What a hoot!

What do you think?

Re: Joys of Jotun
 

I think if you're having fun, and it sounds like you are, then go for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But don't send your important commanders to fight in the Deathmatch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Especially against the crazy AI, that will sometime throw its Pretender in there.