TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Is upgrading designs in queues or changing items in queues when new tech that could improve those design becomes available considered a cheat.For example I could have let say 6 turns to complete the baseship or base with RW component, but that component will became available after 5 turns.On turn 5 I create new or upgrade (edit) existing design replacing it in the queue resulting in new RW component ship available a turn after tech is aquired.Of course this can be done also with retrofit but this might be a cheaper solution.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Raynor, what you mention can be abusive, especially when building ringworlds and arranging things so that you only pay organics instead of all 3 resources. In general though, the consensus has been that it's not something which will really matter overall. Since it's something that people could do without realizing it's a bug and not intended, disqualifying someone for occasional use seems extreme. I'm inclined to agree.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Drake,

How many turn did it take you to build your ringworlds?

Oh, and I agree with you. I guess I was a bit negligent in posting just the question asked by Nyx (the TG rep) without posting any of the replies. ...I did post the link to the TG forum where those replies were posted though. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Alasyr, upgrading a design while it is in the queue is fine by me.

------------------
Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
How many turn did it take you to build your ringworlds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first set of 5 were done by turn 84. I had 35 up by turn 90, and the remaining 13 followed over the next 6 years or so.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Drake,

I am doing better in my current (read Last) contest game. I used your map. I was not able to beat your time for conquering the quadrant. I only was able to get it done in 2.1 years instead of 2, and that was using the Population Expert racial trait, and my game ended up with only 15 ai instead of 16.

I tried several times to get a game with 16 ai, and it only came up once, and that without a gas giant race (I use an ice race myself).

I did considerably better your time to get my first ringworld up as I did my first one in turn 45 and my second in turn 47. Don't feel too bad about your score though because I just can't seem to be able to work on more than 2 or 3 at a time. I keep running out of resources. These babies are expensive to build! I expect it to pick up some later as I start getting some resources back from the first few, but at my current rate I won't be breaking your 278 Mil.

I am thinking I may have concentrated more on research facilities, which cut the time to the stallar manip and baseship tech, but it is hurting my ability to actually produce the bases.

Anyway, we will see.

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 February 2001).]

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Here is a quote from 1.22 Version changes:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>17. Fixed - Added a new restriction that you cannot edit a prototype
design if it has been added to one of your construction
queues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that makes this whole question a non-issue once the patch is out.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

How are you building your RingWorlds?

This is how I would build them:

First, design a StarBase with the Maximum Amount of Hyper Plasma Bolt V's. This Starbase will cost you:

6.5Kt, 50Kt, 1Kt

A turn before it finishes, alter the queue to build instead the Plating, Cabling or RingWorld Generator Starbases. It looks like this method should save quite a few resources. A very rough estimate might place the savings between 400,000 to 450,000 minerals and radioactives. Of course, this assumes that you have organic production to spare.

Oh, and Geoschmo, I assume you mean propulsion expert? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 19 February 2001).]

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Raynor, That would work, however IMHO it would be crossing the line a bit. That has been discussed and decided that it would not be disallowed, but I won't do it myself for the purposes of the contest.

I get 11 space yards built in the sector with a star. I start one space yard building a starbase with a plating or cable component. Two turns later I start the other 10 space yards building five each plating and cable bases. When the first yard is done, I retrofit it to a Starbase with a Generator component. This takes two turns becasue of the 50% retrofit limit. I have a starbase design that is roughly 150% of the value of a cable base, and from there I can retrofit to the generator base. Cost more but I can knock about a year of the construction time that way.

Plus if I undestand things correctly your way will not work after the patch, while the technique I laid out will still be valid.

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 February 2001).]

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

That's how I tested building them to see if the game was really that stupid with the queue swapping. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Definitely abusive...

In my actual game, I just built the plating and cables from scratch. With the core piece, I built a plating component 2 years ahead of the other pieces, and retrofitted twice to get up to the core.

I probably waited a little too long getting the ringworlds up, but in the earlier turns (40 or so) I'd just learned that the value improvement stuff stacked, so I was busy trying to get those built all over the place, and dealing with the shift to using more organics and radioactives than I'd been used to.

I've thought about playing another game, to see how I'd do knowing what I need to do from the start. After about 10 turns I remember how much effort it was, regain my senses and decide to do something else. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

LOL Drake!

You know if you had posted a score of 60 or 70 mil, I probably would have left well enough alone too.

But no, you had to go and more than quadruple my best score to date. I couldn't exactly let that go without at least an attempt at a reply now could I? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Ignore the score from bases, and it looked even worse. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif I could tell there were some fundamental things that could have a radical effect on your score that most people weren't aware of. I'd toyed with the notion of waiting until March 6th or so before submitting my score, but what the heck, it's just a game, right? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

I have to admit though, if they were offering $2,000 instead, you probably wouldn't have heard much out of me other than questions & misinformation. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Anyway, there are still a cpl of weeks left, and while there isn't enough room for improvement to double my score, someone could certainly come in closer to 300M I'm thinking. Guess we'll have to wait and see!

It'd be nice to have a team competition later perhaps, but with the relatively low interest so far for the current contest, I could understand why TG may pass on hosting it. Perhaps we could just run an independant one for fun? *shrug*

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Plus if I undestand things correctly your way will not work after the patch, while the technique I laid out will still be valid.

(edited 19 February 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would still work because you are using the resources from a different design not modifying an existing one. Here is the relevant line in the patch list:

17. Fixed - Added a new restriction that you cannot edit a prototype
design if it has been added to one of your construction
queues.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Raynor, the concensus was don't ban the technique unless someone tries to abuse it. If someone does it once or twice in a game, fine, but if that's the primary method of construction, we've got a problem.

------------------
Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drake:
I have to admit though, if they were offering $2,000 instead, you probably wouldn't have heard much out of me other than questions & misinformation. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*grin*

You certainly have been a fount of information. I think I've read everything you posted on these Boards. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I hope you won't be disappointed if I don't submit a score. IMHO, talking about how to achieve the max score has been a heck of a lot more fun than sitting down at the keyboard and pulling my hair out trying to make sure I didn't miss something every turn.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

Nope. That's not cheating. Especially, when you consider that TG has decided that the below is similarly not cheating. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've been told that there's a bug where you use the reorder queue option and can trick the game into thinking that you've spent more resources than you actually have. It can save several turns of construction on especially expensive items, and it can save a ton of resources as well. The way it works is that if you spend 5k min, 2k org and 2k energy, then swap to a new item, you are credited with 5k in each Category. Now, how abusive do people feel this is? Bad enough that we need to ban it and go back through the old scores looking for it, or is this one of those things like the maintenance gong to zero that looks bad but has no truly detrimental effect? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is was taken from the TG forums at this URL: http://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-bin/...^0@.ee6c055/72

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
IMHO, talking about how to achieve the max score has been a heck of a lot more fun than sitting down at the keyboard and pulling my hair out trying to make sure I didn't miss something every turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No argument from me on that one!

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

The TG contest has definatly not been "fun" in the sense of a typical Space Empires game. It has been challenging, frustrating at times, thought provoking, and certainly conversation provoking in these forums.

I think it has allowed us to uncover some previously unknown bugs and in that way made SEIV a better game.

I am looking forward to getting back to playing more conventional games. I would be interested to see if some of the things we have learned in the contest will carry over to those games. I am eagerly anticipating the new patch. I would like the ai to be able to put up more of a fight, and if what I am hearing is correct, it should be able to.

For those of you interested in a team tournament or some other kind of tourney, what are some suggestions for ground rules/ typoe of play?

Geo

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

I think Malfador has done us a great service in adding the option to restrict a player to colonizing only their default planet type and atmosphere. IMHO, this should make it possible to play a humans only multiplayer game in a small galaxy which isn't quite so tedious.

If we restrict the game to humans only, I guess the next question to ask is: What technologies do you think unbalance the game even when used by human players who are able to effectively use and understand them?

What do you think about boarding parties? Is this technology too powerful? Or, do you think it is easy enough to defend against?

What racial weapons are too powerful? I've heard some folks thing organic armor shouldn't be allowed. What about the crystal shard weapon? In a human only game, I think I would disallow Temporal Tech for sure now that I see how fast you can build stuff with the T PSY III.

Do you think ALL racial tech should be disallowed?

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 20 February 2001).]

Re: TG Contest and upgrading designs in queues
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The TG contest has definatly not been "fun" in the sense of a typical Space Empires game. It has been challenging, frustrating at times, thought provoking, and certainly conversation provoking in these forums.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's about how it always goes with competition-level play. Some of the classic arcade game champs play their game for hundreds of hours practicing their techniques and getting details. I just don't have the mindset for that to be fun. I can appreciate their work, but I would never invest that kind of effort.

And I've really enjoyed participating in the contest because of the communication and watching the scores grow so fast and so high. It's been really cool.

My ideal tournament would involve teams. Three or four-player team games. Every-man for himself is fun, but teams are so much more enjoyable. You can get a bad start and still be in the running. You can get a great start and still have a hard game because you draw attention from several enemy players. And so on.

Ground rules:
General Tournament Combat:
1. I'd have several pre-designed maps and everyone has to use those. My experience in StarCraft's ladder, and the FPS leagues show that this is a great system. It would take a little while to find the best maps, ones with the right mix of warp gates and planet types, but after the community had selected like 10 or 15 of the best (probably a number would be custom designed rather than random) games would be much more fun. Random maps should always be an option, but they have a high risk of screwing someone over big time and that's just not fun for either player. The chosen maps would come in several sizes, not all of the same size. In a best 2 out of 3 format, each team choses one map, random selection (not random design) for the tiebreaker if any. In a one-off game the player/team who gets challenged selects the map.
2. All players start on even planets.
3. Players may view the scores of all allied players.
4. No AI races present. Not even neutrals. And it doesn't matter how good Aaron gets them in the future patches. Head-to-head competition should be between humans only.
5. Personally, I'd like events off, though I can see the argument for leaving them on. This may be best as an option for the players to discuss before the match.
6. 2,000 point races.
7. Low tech start, low initial resources, one world.
8. 2,000 max units, 2,000 max ships.

Deathmatch Games: (one-on-one)
1. Players may view only their own score.
2. Small maps only
3. No AI Races
4. High tech start, high initial resources, 5. worlds, all worlds equal.
6. 3,000-point races
7. Events on
8. Same as general rules for map selection, but only among the smallest maps.
I get these settings from what I've seen work in the Age of Empires deathmatch games. It's actually a fast and vicious game, a lot of fun for variety, but not a thing for regular play.

'Course these are off the top of my head, I'm sure someone with experience over at the Borg Collective or one of the other SE3/4 tournament sites will have the best ideas.

------------------
Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.