Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

After a few warm-up games, I've really enjoyed playing these jungle warriors. However, I haven't quite figured out what pretender chassis works best with them.

I've been using the Desert Sun option with the following scales: order 1-3, heat 2, misfortune 1, magic 1. My main armies have been big hoplite/archer Groups backed up by sorcerors, black sorcerors and voices of the lord.

It seems like a multi-path human pretender (e.g. archmage) might build on the strength of the Machakan mages quite nicely, but then again, choosing a pretender with different strengths (e.g. Wyrm) might be a better combination. All other things being equal, I'd prefer to have a big, nasty monster ruling the jungle tribes... somehow that just seems right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Any input you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

may i ask how you cope with the bad pd ?
do you take a watchtower and castle all the area which i probably would do ?

but machakas armies aren't very quick or ?
so how do you defend with them best ?

i find the machaka theme nice but it seems that i can't play with them because they are not my playstyle so hopefully i get some advice here together with you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

If you want to search for previous Machaka threads it has some suggestions. But my personal favorite is:

Virtue Air 4

Dominion 6

Then Heavy Scales. Good choices are: Order 3, Production 3, Magic 3. Heat 2, Growth 3.

Then you can get a Castle.

[ June 30, 2004, 21:38: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, perhaps I've been doing something wrong. I've been taking the Wizard's Tower instead of the Castle. My thinking was that since they're cheaper and faster to build, it would give me more defended provinces and more places to build hoplites (which are the main muscle in my army).

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

Hey, Zen? Didn't you say Growth was crap, and that you always take Death instead, for the points? Is there a specific reason why you've chosen to recommend the exact opposite, in this case?

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably for the overall 33% boost to gold that those particular scales give you. I wouldn't personally take more than death 1 in a game that I expected to Last for a long time. For Abysia at least, in my experience, death 2 starts to negatively affect you by around turn 60, and death 3 starts to be noticeable by around turn 30.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For someone new, who always hates it when their people die (It's a gamer trait for some reason) I always suggest taking something with heavy scales instead of heavy pretender. And the way the Air4 Virtue works for Machaka they need gold. I normally would never play Growth but for people to learn, they should learn to milk as much out of their nation as they can, then later worry about making uberpretenders or bless effects.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

I like a Daughter of the Land with A3 W2 S7. Covers your magic gaps, gives a decent SC, and a nice extra two gems a turn.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Note the Astral (S) 7 Quantum recommends - not anything lower. Having 7 gives some insurance against Magic Duel (evocation 3) which would otherwise allow a chance of an S1 mage to get lucky and kill your pretender. Adding on a Starshine Skullcap and casting the spells that raise your astral (and other) magic skill levels means that most nations won't be able to take you down without using Communion.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never wallpapered castles, but I used to play Machaka a fair amount. One way to boost the horrible PD is to add some of Machaka's very cheap archers to each non-fortified province.

Another thing is to stud your territory with forts, to allow only one non-fortified province between each fort, a la :

oXoX
ooXo
XoXo

Each X being a fortified province, each O non-fortified. My 'diagram' is iffy - forts border one another, but then, most maps don't have too many provinces with 8 neighbors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Point is, if you build those forts, you can channel the enemies, as they only have so many ways they can go, if they don't want to besiege you. ( It works better with the semi-expensive fortifications that give at least 100 defense, because the walls aren't as easily crushed the same turn as an attack. Extra admin doesn't hurt either.)

You build your temples in the provinces with the forts, obviously. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Later game you may need more temples, but Machaka isn't dominion driven unless you have an immortal pretender.

Put a reasonable garrison in each fort, with both a combat combatant and, if you can afford it, a spellcaster. (The question in affording the spellcaster is the loss of research / casting, unless you build a lab in each as well.) The garrisons allow you to move to block the 'channels' you've left between your fortifications, to surround the invader.

One thing that helps to afford the reasonable garrisons with Machaka : Vine Men. Build some Ivy Crowns, thus allowing 3 Vine Men (or Vine Ogres, if your caster is N3) for every 1 nature gem. Upkeep free, and non-routable as long as there is a mage on the field. And of course, forging Thistle Maces helps your N2 mages reach N3, allowing the Vine Ogres which provide much better bang per Nature Gem. (Get to N4, and higher construction, and there's a staff you can forge that gives a bonus of 2 to nature magic, and an additional bonus to each casting of Vine Men / Vine Ogres.)

Nearly ever mage Machaka produces has at least N1, so it's easy to produce the Vines, and again - they don't suffer morale loss, so won't rout, making them great for wearing down most invaders until they run out of fatigue.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One thing that helps to afford the reasonable garrisons with Machaka : Vine Men. Build some Ivy Crowns, thus allowing 3 Vine Men (or Vine Ogres, if your caster is N3) for every 1 nature gem. Upkeep free, and non-routable as long as there is a mage on the field. And of course, forging Thistle Maces helps your N2 mages reach N3, allowing the Vine Ogres which provide much better bang per Nature Gem. (Get to N4, and higher construction, and there's a staff you can forge that gives a bonus of 2 to nature magic, and an additional bonus to each casting of Vine Men / Vine Ogres.)

Nearly ever mage Machaka produces has at least N1, so it's easy to produce the Vines, and again - they don't suffer morale loss, so won't rout, making them great for wearing down most invaders until they run out of fatigue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm the vine men / ogres look like a very good idea to me since they are very cheap + mindless as you said http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
some items like an ivy crown increase the gain of vine men / ogres and in the description of an ivy king stands that he increases the chances too.
somewhere in the manual or ingame description i further read that summoning in a forest province helps too.
but i remember once i tried to give an ivy king the suggested +nature staff but he had no arms if i remember correctly to use it .

so what is the best combo to get most ivys with one summoner ?
because if you forge all the items you should get something between 6-10 vine men / ogres per summon right ?
normally you get 2 vine men or 1 ogre but the additional vine men / ogres from the items are the same right ?
so in the end you get either x vine men or x-1 vine ogres right ?
thnx for abolishing my confusions according to the vine creatures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

Almost all of my games were Machaka yet recently doing the other nations more often because their province defense is so terrible. For the really large maps province defense becomes more important.

As far as the topic is concerned I recommend using the pretender which comes with the lions to his aid during battle.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "best" is a slightly silly question. The silly answer would probably be the Animist, since he is a random unit you get for free via luck, and has an innate vine summons bonus and a head and two arms. Ivy King is good with is bonus, but a bit expensive - I'd rather use a couple of N1 national mages with treelord staves, or N2 mages with thistle maces, or Druids, or whatever I happen to have. If I had an Ivy King, I'd probably do something else with him besides make ogres, at least part of the time. BTW IIRC he does have arms, but lacks a head - he's the king, so he just kinda grows an ivy crown, is my interpretation.

Yes you can get 5-6 or maybe more ogres/turn if you use a treelord staff and an ivy crown and a caster who has innate vine summon talent (Druid, Ivy King, Animist, etc.).

Yes, the ivy men get +1 more of those per casting, but the bonus number is constant. So the ogres are generally the better deal unless you have no ivy bonuses (and even then, probably better for most purposes).

PvK

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

I like the Lord of the Desert Sun (the guy with the lion head) with Fire 9 Nature 6.

This gives a decent blessing for your hunters, and makes him an awesome support mage.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The animist description implies that it's bonus applies only to vine man (not ogres)?
Are you sure he get's a bonus for the ogres?


If I get to choose between recruiting animists or druids for vine-man/ogre summons which is more economical?

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The animist description implies that it's bonus applies only to vine man (not ogres)?
Are you sure he get's a bonus for the ogres?


If I get to choose between recruiting animists or druids for vine-man/ogre summons which is more economical? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure. I got my animist for free, so I don't know how much they usually cost, and I haven't tried to have him make ogres yet, but I assume that like all the other vine-boosts, I have seen, it will work for ogres as well as for men.

It will also depend on how many nature gems you want to contribute for nature- and vine-boosting items. Generally I'd think Animists would be more efficient even if they aren't free, assuming the bonus works for ogres and they don't cost a human arm and a leg in gold.

PvK

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

animists cost 120 g and I think the get the boost only for vine man.
druids cost 140g and are sacred and get no summon bonus.
I think that for ogre summoning the druids are more effective.

Re: Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?
 

Animists do get an extra vine ogre. Just tried it. So it depends on whether you want to save time, gold, or gems, and how much you want to invest. They're both good.

PvK