Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

I have modified the Cradle of Dominions map from the great Jason Lutes who has so graciously allowed me to change the .map file for his map. Listed below are some of the changes as well as reasons for the changes.

Find it HERE!

1.) Some of the Multiplayer issues with the Cradle of Dominions maps was the liberal use of terrain flags. While fantastic for diversity cut alot of the options for mobility for alot of nations. Certain nations (Read: Caelum) had a significant advantage of mobility over other nations with viable 2 strat move troops.

I have modified the terrain to have 'avenues' of high speed terrain (plains and farmland) where it was not overtly obvious what the terrain was intended to be (I.E. Forest or Sea). This should keep with the clumped bits of terrain motif of the map while allowing nations to use the their more mobile troops and units that were reduced to 1-strat move/turn positions.

2.) Because of the Liberal sprinkling of Terrain the flags for population were set very low. It was rare to have a high income game which put the focus on Gem Finding/usage and non-gold troops. While this in and of itself was fine, it also limited Blood Nations because of the ability to convert from Gold to Blood economy or having an equal share of both. This limited the nation selection or put at a disadvantage most blood nations or nations that relied on blood to suppliment their nation. Also the low population gave very real supply issues thus allowing Undead (already favorably placed) a more significant advantage than it had previously.

Very few terrains now have under 5k population thus giving more overall gold and supply. Also there are more equally spaced 'large province sections' to provide a core of gold in 8 sections of the map.

3.) Water Nations were at a substancial disadvantage on this map because of both the number of water provinces but also because of the population and placement of the water provinces. While only 1 water nation *should* be allowed the shipyard function (Anchors being able to travel to Anchor) made the seas less of a focal or barrier point.

I have connected the waterways (rivers to Sea) and given more population to the sea provinces. While not an incredible change it should allow a water nation more breathing room than it had previously due to every water province being connected to a coastline thus being able to be sieged in their capital at the very early game. This also allows the Underwater Nation to grab additional "Many Site" provinces.

If you have any questions, comments, feedback or rants please use this thread to do so to me, Jason Lutes had nothing to do with this except for giving his permission to have it butchered by me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Also, please note, if you feel the Cradle map was fine and suited to your playstyle, you are perfectly inclined to that position and playstyle, and this .map in no way circumvents the intention of the original map.

[ July 02, 2004, 22:17: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Well, the first thing that I noticed was that the Ahktala Wastes(#39?) are no longer a waste. Wastes weren't really the worst problem in the game, since at least wastes have no movement penalties.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Wastes prevent high population. I will change the name to Plains as I did with others.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Newest Version of the Cradle of Zen is up at the same link. For MP compatibility the name of the newest .map file is:

zencradlev11.map

I have changed all erroneous names to reflect their new plain status as opposed to wastes or deserts, non-obvious names were not changed.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

One bug - 109 (Ivalos) and 99 (Amnor Forest) should be connected / neighbors, and aren't.

Just went through the map, clicking on almost every province, and the rest look like they're correct - I might've missed one here or there.

The 109/99 was very obvious to me, given that I just had a game with my capitol in 99. "Why can't I see the forces in my neighbor?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit : Next game, I see that at least some of the provinces aren't set as #nostart. This one is too hard to visually / manually verify, but for instance, Scythewater (150) with only 1 neighbor, is currently a possible starting position.

(This is why I feel using #nostart is better than tweaking the terrain value - you can simply cut-and-paste the #nostart lines when editting a map, whereas the bit-flag method means that modifying terrains as you've done is hazardous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[ July 03, 2004, 04:14: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Version 1.2 is up, same link. For Multiplayer Continuity use the same Versions (I'd get the latest Version).

Fixed Total Nostart List (If there is one that is under 3 Provinces let me know and I'll revise it. But I'm pretty sure I got them all).

Fixed a few neighbors. In the swamp area as well.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Hey, Zen, maybe you wanna look HERE?

I must admit, I didn't ask for permission to mod the map, mostly because it started out as a "private" project. I was in the middle of a SP game when I realized that the AI still doesn't build castle, so I put some onto the map to conquer. And while I was at it, i started to "fix the shortcomings" of the cradle map as well.
It wasn't until I had put some hours into the scenario/mod that I realized someone else could have some use for it as well.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Multiplayer continuity is unaffected by the overwriting or deletion of the .map file. The Version on the server is the one used, and clients do not need to have the .map at all. Even if the server overwrites or deletes the .map used in the game, the game is not affected.

To avoid confusion, I'd advise not keeping the old Version around so people don't get a choice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 03, 2004, 08:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Been really enjoying a game as Abysia on this map. Thanks Zen and Jason.

One bad connection so far:

Province 6 and Province 4 should not be neighbors.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

The Last Version has been made and updated. I've caught all of the neighbor issues (there were more!) and nostarted a few more provinces.

I was also considering placing marked indi's but the map with it's variety of terrain values seems to get a very good mix of them.

Anyone's opinion on having the special site icons placed with fixed independants? I don't want to ruin too much of the randomosity so that the map is replayable with a variety of variables and not "Go to x abo****ely first no matter nation/game/tactic".

Link for those who missed it:

www.techno-mage.com/~zen/zencradle.zip

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Been there, done that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Can be quite fun.

Maybe we can combine our efforts ??

If anyone likes to give it a try, follow the link I gave below. It isn't finished, I'm still taking suggestions about what to put on the map.
And maybe we could get Gandalf to modify his randomizer to only touch provinces which have the remark "randomize:" before them in the map file?

I would rather call it a "scenario" and mark it as such, but I haven't found a way to set indie strenght etc., but you can't set it from the startup screen either. Until someone tells me how, or it is fixed, it's still a simple map ...

A.

[ July 10, 2004, 07:55: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps not quite the Last. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm pretty sure that provinces 67 and 48 (lower left side, right under the port) aren't supposed to be neighbors, since they don't have a shared border.


Anyone's opinion on having the special site icons placed with fixed independants? I don't want to ruin too much of the randomosity so that the map is replayable with a variety of variables and not "Go to x abo****ely first no matter nation/game/tactic".

Seems like the magic rich sites provide enough of a fixed impetus for expansion - likewise the chokepoints and ports.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Ja, great changes.

6 and 4 must not be neighbors, and 67 and 48 too -- these were the only errors I have found so far (and corrected for myself -- if you want my Version, just let me know).

Thanks much!

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

I would like to host an MP game on this as soon as the neighbor issues are fixed.

Do all players need the fixed .map, or only the host?

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

only the host needs the fixed mapfile.

I'd be interested in testing it out, depending on the settings.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

I'd also love to get in - my SP test games make it seem like there's a bit too high an average province income now, but if that's true all across the map (my tests both started in the SW), then it's fair. With better land movement rates (and possibly Caelum Banned / computer controlled http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) it might be even better than the original - still one of my Favorites.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

It is even across the board. As far as people.

I have updated a new Version that fixed the neighbor issue that Cainehill brought up (I had fixed the 4 -> 6 one already Tinktank, thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I have left everything else alone, since it seems to have given out enough sites with the manysite provinces that I don't need to adjust. Along with the number of Forests/Swamps the Indies are pretty spread to. So I won't adjust them. Look towards the future for a Zen/Arralen colaboration Cradle of Arrazen after I finish bringing you the RQR and BQR on Sunday.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Sorry to be a bother, but unless I'm screwed up somehow it looks like 67 and 48 are still neighbors in 1.3 Zen.

Thanks for your work on this. It makes a great medium length game with 8 AIs.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

yup [dblpst]

[ July 17, 2004, 01:35: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

where can i dl the cradle of zen .map and .tga files, along with all those other great maps you've made zen!

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arryn's site

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arryn's site </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen's Cradle map is not available on my site. At least not yet. Zen's .map file link is in a post earlier in this same thread. The .tga is available from the IW site as the map "Cradle of Dominion".

I tend not to duplicate on my site the files on IW's site unless someone has specifically asked me to. (Sometimes the IW site will have a problem, or my site will get the file faster than IW makes it available.) In general, if you don't find it on my site (I do host many files that IW doesn't), look next at IW's site. Between both my site and IW, you should be able to find all downloadable maps.

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arryn's site </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen's Cradle map is not available on my site. At least not yet. Zen's .map file link is in a post earlier in this same thread. The .tga is available from the IW site as the map "Cradle of Dominion".

I tend not to duplicate on my site the files on IW's site unless someone has specifically asked me to. (Sometimes the IW site will have a problem, or my site will get the file faster than IW makes it available.) In general, if you don't find it on my site (I do host many files that IW doesn't), look next at IW's site. Between both my site and IW, you should be able to find all downloadable maps. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">exept the faerun map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is that a thinly-veiled request? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Thanks so much for the info, im always using arryn's site i never new ilwinter had maps on its own page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif . but now i do! WEEEEE!!!! *does a happy dance* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your site is still devoid of catchy name! You need something more memorable and more definitely you, preferrably before someone else steals it, like "arryn.net". Think about it. Get it before someone else does.

How's that?

Also, having a catchy DNS that's definitely you allows you to point subdomains at people and places you do and do not like, particularly those lacking a DNS. This is pretty useful, especially when you find some chumpazoid you detest, and point a highly insulting DNS name at him that catches on because he lacks one and is forced to advertise a less-than-memorable IP.

[ July 18, 2004, 04:59: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

Haven't heard much feedback from the Cradle, maybe because not enough people have been playing it. (It is after all a large map).

How are people liking it (other than those who posted, thank you all.)?

If this one goes favorably I might do a redux of a few other maps which are what I like to call, terrain challenged. (This breeds all the problems with the map as far as population and sitage.)

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you intend to (permanently) host the files for your modded maps? Or would you like me to?

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

If I'm going to do more, I'll just make a bundle pack. Making a good .map file is alot less intensive than say, finishing this RQR's Last prettying touches, or waiting for a patch so I don't have to change it again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you make a .map for Karan with magic sites in it? I tried to do it already but RL got me half way through. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Still too early into a game on the map to reallly say; I have noticed one more bug in the map file though. Now provinces 136 (Toemuck Fen) is connected to 141 and 124, and shouldn't be. 136 should only have the two neighbors - I suspect you may've added the links on purpose, but it's one bottleneck that should remain, imo.

(The province in question is the standalone triangular province on the far east side of the map about a quarter of the way down.)

[ July 21, 2004, 15:07: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Cradle of Zen (.map file) and a question!
 

There is one reason why that is no bottlenecked. And that is because most of it is Swamp, and there are very few units with any sort of Swamp Survival. Also the "PURE" bottleneck when moving into two different terrain type flags (Like the terrain switching from Forest to Swamp) caused the superslowdown of troop movement. I removed most of those including that one.

If you don't like it, that is of course your preference, but if I left all the swamp provinces exactly as they were and didn't change terrain the speedbump, 1 Strategic move a turn, would remain, as it is now the addition of different neighbors with a movable terrain type (Plains/Swamp) allow at least nations that are supposed to move well in that terrain (C'tis) the chance to do so, while still slowing down every other nation.