help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

what do i need to do to have a good pretender for early expansion from turn 3-5 on ?
at indeps 6+

i read much about sc's here on the forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
and many ppl say they have early expanding pretenders which kill alone one indi province / turn after turn 3-5 .

all my tries so far were in vain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
what are good pretenders for this ?
the wyrm ?

but my problem is even if there is no heavy cavalry/knights but e.g. heavy infantry my pretender is surrounded quick and killed quick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

but if you start conquering at turn 3-5 you can normally only research 1 path to lvl 2 or 2-3 to lvl 1 .
i tried a fire shield on a wyrm and it worked not too bad but he still got killed in the 3rd province after he conquered 2 very narrow .

exept the cyclops all other pretenders have very low starting protection . most don't have recuperation so if not playing arco an early bad battle affliction hurts really too .

perhaps i should try the vq but the most useful nation for her is ihmo ermor because she needs a lot of points but ermor may not use her anymore .
i'll maybe give her a try with abysia .

so please enlighten me humble beeing in how to build an early sc pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, there isn't a single formula but you can find most of what you need in the alteration path by Alt-3, to start with. There are other things you can do, and you should experiement with, but the base I usually start with is E/A2/W and script quickness, ironskin, mistform, mirror image. That alone will suffice for most indies.

There are a variety of other spells that are handy (breath of winter, soul vortex, invulnerability, fire shield, strength of gaia, regen, etc.) but they will vary, depending on nation, pretender chassis, points and the strat you want to use.

Some general notes:
If you are looking at a very large fight, you will need to worry about the encumbrance of your pretender as well. Against most indies, it isn't really a problem as they will turn and run long before you have to kill them all but in especially large fights, encumberance can get you killed.

Pretenders with low slots and high HP tend to be more fitted to the early game, for their price.

There are a lot of handy astral spells that are low level and path but having a small amount of astral will make your pretender extremely vulnerable to any astral mage with the mind duel spell so it is usually avoided.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I still use her with some nations, the ones that I play with sloth/death, mostly. Order and magic are often the only scales I see in the positive numbers but that's just me.

That said, if you have less points to spend, there are definitely other good choices, especially since the re-balancing of the VQ (which was quite well done, imo). Most of what you want is fairly obvious (good base hp, in built abilities, slots, initial path/dominion, etc.), Encumberance is the only thing that might deserve special attention.

- Kel

[ July 03, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

There's really a lot of possible pretender choices that can get you rolling by somewhere in between turn 3 and 7. (Note that I don't say 3 and 5, because some nations & pretenders have a harder time doing the research needed.)

One key thing, early on, is that you don't try for provinces with certain troops guarding it (knights and heavy cavalry you already know; crossbows, longbows, barbarians and lizardmen you should also tread carefully with); you also don't take (most) pretenders alone into a province where there are too many troops.

Many reasons for that : fatigue, with most pretenders (albeit a high protection, high HP pretender can take provinces while "napping", with breath of winter and fire shield up); your defense is lowered for each attack (or attacker) past the first, so that 19 defense isn't too impressive when the sixth attacker swings.

There are exceptions : you can often take 70 troops early on with a good SC pretender, if it's only militia, light infantry, and archers. Of course - there might always be some wizards for commanders, so there's almost always a chance for death.

Some things that really help early expansion : huge protection rating, which is boosted by 1 for every point of earth magic. A 12 protection pretender with 9 points in earth magic has an impressive 21 armor rating, and a pretty good bless with some nations. He also has Earth Shards for negligable fatigue (10 or 20, divided by 8, plus encumbrance) and lots of rocks - awesome for militia, archers, barbarians, and other lightly armored types.

A high fear rating or high awe rating does wonders too, as the enemies either can't attack (awe) or rout quickly (fear). Being ethereal means that 3/4 of their blows pass through you with no damage.

Naturally having multiple attacks helps; having some tough minions in every battle can help or hurt, but does tend to keep your pretender from dying. (By tough minions, I refer to serpents, lions, etc, that have reasonable morale, and can't fly.)

Other things vary by nation : a high-fire Phoenix can romp with Marignon or Abysia, because each nation starts with a potent fire spell (Holy Pyre / Flare), and doesn't mind dying in friendly domain. Similarly, any high death pretender can do well with Ermor, scripting 5 casts of Summon Skeletons - the liches and vampire having an edge, because again, they don't mind dying.

And remember - not all nations need, or do best, with a solo SC. Some that have decent troops thrive by having the pretender go along with a small contingent of troops, or spell casting pretenders. Once Vanheim researches Evocation 2, a couple of lightning casting Van-commanders with a set of regular troops do wonders.

Biggest thing to remember - learn your pretender's strengths and weaknesses, and choose provinces to attack accordingly.

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

You can use those afformentioned spells on your worm, lets say, and it'll work well but be wary of making a SC pretender that isn't immortal or doesn't have recuperation...they can rack up the afflictions pretty bad.

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

thnx for the tips cainehill and djtool .

guess i always wanted to much to quick .
a question since i experimented a bit :
i tried ctis desert tombs .
my summoned tomb wyrms are unholy . works blessing for them as well ?
or only for holy units ?
because i tried a scorpion king with fire 9 earth 9 . got quite lousy dominion scales through this but i think it is okay .
although no optimal sc the scorpion king is quite ok with casting fire shield , 4x your suggested flying shards + attack closest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

unfortunately i got some very bad events like burned temple in my capitol on turn 3 so i have to restart and couldn't test if bless works on my tomb wyrms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember that when testing, if you are going to play multiplayer, you have to be ready for the worst outcome as well. If you are playing just for fun, or to try out if a strategy is viable at all, then I can understand starting a new game though. I started about 6 new games yesterday, and created maybe four other pretenders I didn't even bother trying, as I were checking Atlantis. They have really bad pretender selection for bless effect!

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember that when testing, if you are going to play multiplayer, you have to be ready for the worst outcome as well. If you are playing just for fun, or to try out if a strategy is viable at all, then I can understand starting a new game though. I started about 6 new games yesterday, and created maybe four other pretenders I didn't even bother trying, as I were checking Atlantis. They have really bad pretender selection for bless effect! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">it was for testing purposes only if the strat is viable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
at least the wyrms can be blessed . but unfortunately although it says they are sacred they can be blessed only by unholy priests .
thats not good at all for my strat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
cause the only unholy priests who can summon a wyrm / turn are the lvl 4 for 23 deathgemcost .
the battlefieldwide blessing requires lvl 4 too grrr so it is nothing for earlygame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif and in mid/lategame there are not very useful any more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

another question where can i find a list of corrected bless effects ? the manual says i get +4 prot through earth 9 but i only got +3 .

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure this is not the case of natural protection and protection from armor not being just summed together?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ July 04, 2004, 11:38: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure this is not the case of natural protection and protection from armor not being just summed together?


[/quote]

the tomb wyrm has no armor and a basic protection value of 10 so i thought it should be 14.
thnx for the formula http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

I am not sure about what exactly is going on in here, but it seems that either even natural protections gained from multiple sources do not stack straight on or Earth lvl 9 bless effect is added as an armor protection, not as natural.

This is because if you calculate 10 (base prot of Tomb Wyrms) and 4 (Earth bless) together you will get 4+10 - ( 4*10 / 40) => 14-1 final protection value.

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yep seems so . that makes it not very desireable for my tomb wyrms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
but i am experimenting around now a bit more with blessings because they seem quite cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
now i have some more questions :

astral 9 : twist fate : protection from first hit
is this first hit / round of combat or only the first hit in the whole combat ?
is it only for melee or for ranged attacks too ?

water 9 : quickness (50%)
does this mean you get quickness every 2nd round of combat or do 50% of your blessed troops get quickness ?
if the latter can you get quickness then on almost every of your sacred units by multiple casting bless ?

what's a good blessing strat for vanheim ?

are other nations than man / vanheim / jotunheim / ctis / marignon worth blessing strats or is it especially attractive for them ?

since you get hordes of the knights of the unholy sepulchre as AE and have very many points to distribute did someone try a blessing strat with them ? something like fire 9 water 9 astral 9 looks quite nice to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yep seems so . that makes it not very desireable for my tomb wyrms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1 prot less does not lower it too much. But as you won't have many sacred mages as Desert Tombs C'tis the lower levels of Earth won't do much, and it does seem to give too little for its price (for DT C'tis, that is).

Quote:

astral 9 : twist fate : protection from first hit is this first hit / round of combat or only the first hit in the whole combat ? is it only for melee or for ranged attacks too ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just as the spell. That includes the first melee/ranged source of damage for sure, but I don't think that spells would get negated.

Quote:

water 9 : quickness (50%) does this mean you get quickness every 2nd round of combat or do 50% of your blessed troops get quickness ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The first. I think it is not extra action every other round but 50% possibility of having it, every round. Not too big a difference, but don't count for it being in there the 1st/3rd round after being blessed...

Quote:

what's a good blessing strat for vanheim ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vanir have mediocre armor and low-damage weapons (spears) with lowish strength, but awesome defence. They are somewhat vulnerable to missiles as defence won't help against those, their shields help somewhat but arrows are still dangerous. Their common mages are all sacred and have strong air and weak blood magic, their restricted ones have strong Earth but are weaker and not sacred.


Reasons to choose:
They could use Fire 9 for extra 8 ap damage, low-level Blood bless for extra strength, Air for air shield and lighting resistance to protect their expensive Vanir from friendly Orb lightnings, Water for defence that would be increased to awesome amounts and quickness on their mages, and finally, Earth for reinvigoration and protection.

Reasons to leave out:
Increased attack from Fire wouldn't do too much, but level 9 would increase shock value of Valkyries and give Vanheim magic they don't have easy access to.
Blood needs something else to be effective useful outside the bless. Blood 4/ Water 4 could be efficient 'light' bless and would give access to Ice Devils, and Heliophagii. Also, Blood 9 is weak, 8 expensive.
Air shield is nice early on, but Vanheim has easy access to Arrow Fend at Enchantment 6. On the other hand, Enchantment 5 and Thunder Ward would make Vanir 100% lighning-resistant as long as they were blessed. So good in both beginning and mid-to-late game.

Water is AWESOME! Especially your Vanir will be almost untoucheable as long as they won't have to fight versus multiple enemies, but Valkyries will be easily, negating defence, bonus or not. Especially the mages will benefit from Quickness, but it is useful in frontline too. All in all, very good, in both respects.

Earth gives mages reinvigoration. This will get more and more powerful when time goes on and better spells get researched/ the battles grow longer! Earth 9 gives increased protection. With Earth-niner and rushed Construction +4 from bless and +3 from Legions of Steel will give a nice boost.


In short, Water is very good if not best as it gives Vanir defence of over 20, Earth adds to your troops' survivability for when they are hit and helps your mages in long battles. Fire 9/ Blood 4 or 6 helps against high-protection troops. Air protects from missiles, the easiest counter to massed vanir, and lets you bLast with lightning without fear for your expensive Vanir.

I myself liked the W9/E9 Cyclops. Quickness and reinvigoration are NICE combination, and he gets extra-many Claymen. I lost that game to AI, though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Quote:

are other nations than man / vanheim / jotunheim / ctis / marignon worth blessing strats or is it especially attractive for them ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Might not be for 9/9, or even 9/4, but single 9 might be. Bless effects should not, however, be the only reason to choose a spesific pretender/magic, and you should plan for using both your blessed units and your pretender's expensive magic if you are going to MP with it.

Quote:

since you get hordes of the knights of the unholy sepulchre as AE and have very many points to distribute did someone try a blessing strat with them ? something like fire 9 water 9 astral 9 looks quite nice to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It does. Remember that Death will give undead even higher Fear rating, and you need to have atleast some of it anyway. But Dust to Dust/ Wither Bones kills KotUS fast, and they spawn slowly.

Sorry for posting this long a post, it just kept growing!

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

The Moloch is very good at initial expansion also - just make sure you give have some extra troops standing in the back to prevent routing when the wimpy but _effective_ imps rout (in spite of their low morale they have fighting skills far surpassing those of e.g. militia). His ambidexterity, good attack/defence, hp, prot and cause fear combined with a low enc. makes him capable of shredding what he has not yet burninated!

Just wanted to mention this awesome pretender in this start game SC context :-)

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no need to apology and thnx it was great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

i tried a w9/f9 blessing in a testspgame with vanheim the vans were impressive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
problem was i chose the goldnaga and still achieving f9/w9 was damn hard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
i got very lousy scales through this
another prob with vanheim they have only lvl 3 priests so i only get one lvl 4 through prophet for the whole battlefield affecting blessing .

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">guess i check him for abysia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
there i have though expensive natural lvl 4 priests http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and some additional points via heat 3 compared to vanheims cold 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
or perhaps i can make a vq with them with some lower blessings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no need to apology and thnx it was great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

i tried a w9/f9 blessing in a testspgame with vanheim the vans were impressive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
problem was i chose the goldnaga and still achieving f9/w9 was damn hard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
i got very lousy scales through this
another prob with vanheim they have only lvl 3 priests so i only get one lvl 4 through prophet for the whole battlefield affecting blessing . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the Last level make Moloch better choice than Golden Naga. There is a 60-point difference in the price of paths, but Moloch will get the Last path for cheaper (not sure about the strict amount) and is better early game fighter.

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you are right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
moloch saves 31 points + has a 2 higher dominion which are additional points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

so i guess he is a very good choice for any F9 / something else 9 blessing .

possible concurrents are the divine glyph / the baphomet but both are immobile and not available for vanheim .

perhaps he is even the best choice for every F9 / something else 9 blessing since he is a acceptable sc too .

perhaps i should try mictlan with him since i can summon 1-2 FoD's then early which will prevent him from routing and so i can make full use of his flight ability when indep smashing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

edit : if i play mictlan with a moloch = any non mictlan only pretender he still spreads dominion like he would do with any other nation right ?

if i control e.g. 50 provinces how many blood slaves do i have to sacrifice each turn in average in order to keep my dominion at a reasonable level ?

[ July 04, 2004, 21:40: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: help please with pretender SC\'s for early expansion
 

It would be helpful also if you mentioned the nation you want to play. (This contextualizes your question both in terms of what troops might be backing your SC up, what starting spells s/he may have access to, and what magic paths may make sense as well as what pretenders are available at all.)

Immortality is always a nice attribute to have very early (turns 1-10), since your SC will likely be nearly naked but need not care within its own dominion. For this reason, a Phoenix could be good for you if you mention Abysia (starting spell: flare), even though it cant melee its way around.