Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Join me my dominions 2 faring brothers! Raise your voices in unison so that the moloch might be a capable pretender! Cry out so that there might be better diversity! Demand equality for a demonic, horned chassis, of firery goodness! Let him rejoin the ranks of the wonderful he deserves to be in!

Petition now for the dev's to simply get rid of the imps! Raise the Moloch up to the status he deserves!

Say Aye! Save the moloch from he's repressed state!

I for one will start!

I want the imps removed!

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

he's pretty cheap for what you get, so perhaps the Moloch's natural cowardice was a design decision on the part of the Dev's.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doubtful. I hear that in Domination I, the Moloch didn't have this cowardice problem: As for cheap for what you get, the Prince of Death is a comparable fighter, and is zero-encumberance to boot, and lacks this immediate cowardice problem. He's also cheaper. As it stands, the Moloch is only useful for his cheap fire blessing: His cowardice renders him useless as an SC despite his otherwise impressive stats.

However, the entire Moloch issue has been run into the ground in multiple threads in the past.

In Soviet Russia, dead horse beats you!

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

It can be fixed as a mod, it was fixed as a mod, and the players forgot it. Are you sure developers are interested in something like this, when the fix that already exists has not seen much use?

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that this brings to light a problem with modding in general. That problem, IMHO, is that changes implemented via mods are unofficial and for that reason alone don't get much air-time.

The other reason we don't hear much from mods is that you can't use them on fully-automated servers like mosehansen's.

Neither of these problems are suffered by an official patch.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

I think that problem will be solved in the next patch: At that point, servers should be able to use mods, at which point I will load several mods which can be selected at game creation time. That should make modding much more useful.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

What would you think about an 125 points moloch with a built in soul contract?

It has often been pointed out that the ability to start a battle with some free units looses its value after a few turns and makes those pretenders worse than comparable pretenders who are either cheaper or have a usefull ability instead. Maybe this ability could be changed that instead of a certain amount of free units at the beginning of the battle, the pretenders receives some units every round (like Soul contract)

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

PrinzMegaherz,
I'd rather keep him as he is now, or even better, without any kind of special ability at all. A built in Soul Contract would not be worth all those points, IMO.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

All the Moloch's Imps mean is that you have to use him a little differently than some other pretenders. A good thing, imho.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If, by "differently", you mean "is nearly useless as an SC", then yeah: He can still be used for his cheap Fire-9 blessing, but an otherwise valid use as suggested by his blurb text is ruled out. As such, he can be used exactly like any other pretender in every other use except being used as an SC, a role in which he is nearly completely useless.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

The moloch isn't the only pretender getting combat summons. At least the imps are somewhat useful, lord of the gates get 3 shades.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yes, there are a few others, but none of them suffer the problem as severely as the Moloch: The Moloch's Imps *FLY*, which means that they IMMEDIATELY get in the face of the enemy and rout the next turn, before the Moloch can even finish casting his spells. This means the Moloch will practically never be able to outrun them, and the Imps are weak and cowardly and rout quickly. The Shades move more slowly and have better morale.

Also, the Lord of the Gates sucks, and isn't really that cool-looking to boot, so nobody uses him when the Prince of Death can do the same thing with better magic for the same cost. He has the same problem, but nobody really wants him, so it's not a big issue.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If, by "differently", you mean "is nearly useless as an SC", then yeah: He can still be used for his cheap Fire-9 blessing, but an otherwise valid use as suggested by his blurb text is ruled out. As such, he can be used exactly like any other pretender in every other use except being used as an SC, a role in which he is nearly completely useless. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can still use him as a SC - just not in the "Lone Ranger" mode in which he and his Imps would be the only friendly units on the battlefield. Use him in support of other friendly forces, or work around the problem by sticking some units at the back of the battleboard with hold orders. The role in which I think he could truly excel is as an anti-SC, since he has, iirc, the highest inherent attack skill of any pretender.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This will then cripple his strategic mobility, since he'll be limited to attacking only adjacent provinces: There aren't very many flying units that won't rush into the battle (and then die). I think the only ones that come to mind are Storm Demons and Caelumian archers. This severely limits your options.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He can fight reasonably well if you can do something about his cowardice. This involves having to saddle him with troops that may not be able to be adequately protected from battlefield nastiness, and probably encumber his strategic move to a level that makes difficult to keep up with more mobile SCs, or sacrificing an item slot to collar him. Alone, however, his imps are liable to kill themselves quickly and rout him again.

Yes, it's entirely possible to have him accompany an army, but then you've largely defeated the point of having what would otherwise be a high-class SC chassis and reduced him to the level of artillery support. Certainly he does this well at the moment, since the only reason to take him at all is for the Fire-9 bless, but as an SC chassis, he's of very questionable worth at present.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Just because you don't know how to use him doesn't mean he can't be used as SC.

And, btw, he has far better combats stats then LoD. Unless you don’t consider 20 vs. 15 attack (not counting fire bonus), fire immunity, ambidexterity and fire magic (which is far better in combat then death) an advantage. The only combat advantage that LoD has is better fear. Take out imps and you will get and UBER pretender with BEST combat stats in game that EVERYONE will use.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

I'd like to see the Imps removed. If the Moloch is too strong without the Imps, then take away the Imps and make him weaker as well. But it's just weird to have him handicapped by something that is supposed to be an advantage. Weird and confusing.

As for the idea of using a mod that removes the Imps, that's only really practical if you're playing with a group of friends. I pretty much just play in games that get started on this forum. What am I supposed to do? Say, "I'll join as Ulm. Here are the mods I expect everyone to use."

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The prince of death also has the advantage that he has has an encumbrance of 0, which is extremely useful, and allows him to wear any piece of armour that he could ever want.

The Moloch didn't generate Imps in Dominions 1, there he actually had a command to summon devils, and he really wasn't that overpowered. He also is currently just a bit beefier Version of an archdevil.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These certainly account for his 25 extra points in cost, but Imps make this little edge useless, since all you have to do is kill the stupid imps, and they practically beg for it, flinging themselves into the enemy like that, and the Moloch is gone, possibly dead, if you planned it.

As for Fire Magic being better in combat than Death, that's debatable. Fire has Phoenix Pyre and Fire Shield, which are certainly neat...but Death has Soul Vortex, which allows the aspiring SC to both damage his enemies in a radius, and alleviate the need for a lifestealing weapon.

Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case. Besides, Death has Drain Life. The PoD set for drain life/summon chaff will be far more effective as an anti-SC duellist than the Moloch will.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, with fire 9, he can do both, thanks to the huge fatigue reductions he will experience. Try Phoenix Pyre, Heat from Hell, Firestorm, Flame Storm, Flame Storm, attack. Admittedly, he may go unconscious at some point, but all you need there is someone to cast relief or for a lifestealing target to show up close to him.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, once you have relief, if you feel like towing a little flying minion to relief you, that's always an option, but a mage in the back won't solve your imp problem, and the troops that can both keep up with the Moloch in flight and not be annihilated by this kind of abusive behavior tends to be limited to Devils and Iron Dragons. Or maybe some more imps leftover from an HfH.

No one's arguing that the Moloch makes a fine devil commander, though. Hmm....

You know, the Lord of the Night doesn't rout which his fiends bite it. I wonder if the Moloch would still rout if he were commanding devils, the Imps died first, and then the devils died?

[ July 06, 2004, 03:39: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

there really is no use arguing that "he can still be useful in combat you dont know how to use him" because the imps *are* supposed to be a benefit but are really a hindrance because the Moloch routs AS SOON AS they die and they die fast because they fly and enter combat immediately and are weak.

the only thing that needs to be done is code the moloch not to rout when his imps die, that is it!

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe because we have been abstaining from participating in discussions where people abUSE the root "use" and spout inaccurate hyperbole. Moloch with devils and/or other strong fliers under his command is flaming death from above.

Graeme is also of course entirely correct that characters with high fire magic can scorch the earth and then fly in to disembowel the survivors, without much fatigue, and with nice penetration bonuses, etc.

Routing when the imps die is a bug which should be fixed, but saying the Moloch is "useless" just proves that all of Norfleet's Messages should be censored with a filter than replaces all assertions of "uselessness" with phrases such as "inefficient", "problematic", "sub-optimal", "sub-par", "imperfect", "flawed", "not the best", "not able to fly 3 provinces and wipe out an entire army by himself in one turn with a <1% risk of affliction", etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

PvK

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

I agree the Moloch should be fixed. It's not just the Moloch which needs fixing... other important fixes/improvements include:

1) The auto-killing of attacking units after X amount of turns during battle should be switched into an auto-retreat.

2) Improving the Arena Death Match event so human players view it as worthwhile sending someone... the prize is not worth the life of a good commander. Also computer opponents should NOT be sending their pretenders into the Arena Death Match event... that's a big flaw.

--------

All of these topics have been around for awhile... would be nice to get a developers opinion about these suggested improvements. For example if we knew the developers were not going to change the Moloch or one of these other suggestions then we'd stop seeing them over and over.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

For those individuals here that would prefer keeping the moloch in its present cowardly state, why not have imps pop up in the providence Moloch is residing, in the fashion that Vampires apear in providences where the VQ is.

This way, the player is given the option of whether he wants to keep those useless imps in tow or not, or if he wants them to be a burden to some other less important commander.

[ July 06, 2004, 21:13: Message edited by: Spacepain ]

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I stand by my statement that the Moloch is useless as an SC. He's still useful as a general pretender chassis....but useless as an SC: If you actually attempt to use him as such, the imps get him every time. Sure, you can send him in with a ton of rabble, but then you've undermined his usage as an SC.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They only make him rout if he enters combat alone, which he does not have to do to be considered a SC. This is a buggy weakness which detracts from his value, and prevents him from being used effectively in the one specific way of being sent in alone, but it does not make him useless as a SC. It doesn't even make him useless as a solo fire brigade SC, because you can have minor forces all over the map, and he just needs to coordinate his moves with theirs to have the necessary "cheerleaders" present. Having him lead a bunch of devils though is one obvious, simple and effective thing to do.

I agree the imp/rout thing is a silly bug that cripples one specific way he might be used otherwise. I just object to your over-use and abuse of the term "useless" and related expressions, as in:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exaggeration. There are other very useful uses, and even some efficient ones, even on the battlefield, as long as someone besides the Moloch and his Imps are present.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if you insist that the only "SC" use is by strict definition without any accompanying units. Since you responded to Truper's "not in the 'Lone Ranger' mode" point in practical rather than semantic terms, it seems you accept that this is a way the Moloch can be used - you simply find it sub-optimal, because you would prefer to be able to fly in alone without the imp/rout problem, as a PoD can.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exaggeration/wrong. You could take him to get cheap higher fire, for magic or for the blessing you yourself mentioned. You could also use him as a flying army commander/combattant.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exaggeration/wrong. It won't happen if there are other friendly units present.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exaggeration/wrong. It's not "useless" to be able to cast, say, Fire Shield on yourself before flying into combat, or Heat From Hell, or some arty spells with very low fatigue cost and very high penetration, before jumping into combat.

PvK

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It detracts GREATLY from his value as an SC: Since he can't actually wipe out an army solo, he no longer truly qualifies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's hard to guarantee that there will be both a few archers you can use as an anchor (as any melee troops will charge in and die unless you have a cripple squad, which is more unusual), and a commander you can detach to drag them in as your cheerleading section. Even then, if you start lobbing Firestorms, they're all gonna die. Fast.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but at this point, his role as a commander of a horde of devils has superceded his role as an SC. Unless you bring a reasonably large number of devils, even the devils will die.

I agree the imp/rout thing is a silly bug that cripples one specific way he might be used otherwise. I just object to your over-use and abuse of the term "useless" and related expressions, as in:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, sure, if you want to reduce his role to that of a petty commander and artillerist....there are other pretenders which can accomplish this job just fine, at lesser cost, or enhanced functionality elsewhere.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you can't fulfill this requirement, then you tend to fail some of the basic criteria of an SC: Somebody who can crush armies solo: The necessity of towing chaff, which can be quite encumbering, as your selection of chaff that can keep up with you and not die immediately is limited. It's true that the Moloch is a good fighter, but as it is unfeasible to operate him solo without practically guaranteeing your mission fails, perhaps very dramatically, on even mild resistance far below the class of the Moloch itself, he's not really a true SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you want a flying army commander, for, say, devils, the PoD can work just as well, at reduced cost, and improved functionality: The Moloch gets you the low-cost F9 bless.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other commanders don't count. Other units tend to slow you down.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's just throwing on some damage and pain shields and maybe firing off a few potshots before charging into a fight....which you won't get to do if your imps have routed you before you finish. This is fine and good, but doesn't really address the issue.

In the end, the Moloch is currently "cheap fire blessing dude". His effectiveness as a warrior is greatly hampered by his craven cowardice.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Also note that you can't take advantage of one of the huge benefits of having a flying Pretender or other SC : being able to attack behind enemy lines. Dragons, PoD, Virtue, Manticore, etc can all very effectively fly into enemy territory and easily nail a province.

The Moloch can't, because the bloody imps will show up, race at the militia / PD, and almost instantly rout. At this point, the Moloch dies because a couple of puny, totally disposable units got wounded and ran away.

A Virtue on the other paw, even in the early game, can effectively "cherry pick" isolated provinces to attack and conquer. Likewise a dragon, PoD, etc. The Moloch would die to 30 LI attempting to do the same.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

A starting artilley pretender is almost useless.
I tried Moloch in MP games, and used it with my army.

Other player took twice the land I got by using their pretender to take 1 province, and army to take another.

I had both of them taking 1 province.

This slows you a lot since the enemy has the double of your income potentially (well if he starts in the middle of wastes and you in the middle of farms...it's a little different but I've never seen this), and could have more mages/temples/castles later to get a winning edge.

I agree with dropping Imps like PoD drops undeads here and there, instead of having imps in battle.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Again, I have no strong disagreement against those points. I was just complaining about overuse of "useless" to mean anything but "has NO use".

I'd add that not only should the imp routing not rout the Moloch, but they should also be guarding him, rather than charging into the wild. Or, as suggested, just dropping an imp every now and then (1/turn?) would be good.

PvK

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Why can't the imp thing be implemented like the Soulstone of the Wolves? i.e. have imps appear all round the battlefield and converge on your foes. I'm not exactly sure how the Soulstone works, but I've had literally dozens of Soulstone-produced wolves rout and still not have my Soulstone-carrying commander rout. I think it's because every round new wolves appear, so technically the unit hasn't routed. If the number of imps produced was even 3-4 per round, it would help without making the Moloch too powerful (except against indies and the like, which is fine) - they'd just be a nuisance to more powerful foes.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

The stone is probably casting Howl every turn. That's a powerful effect against mortals, even when it's mere wolves. People mock imps, but they are actually pretty good units, when they don't get wiped out due to suicide flights. Infinite imp stream would I think be overpowered, unless perhaps it were only one per combat round.

PvK

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

I see the same dorks are here nitpicking at the use of the word "useless" again. Norfleet is completely correct that save for the use for fire-9 blessing, the moloch is not a strong choice for any pretender role. Even in the fire-9 blessing role, he is arguably superceded by the phoenix, who is a stronger artillery unit and is of course... immortal.

Having to tow around an army with your SC sucks. He's clearly worse than the POD and Virtue in the flying humanoid class, simply because of the presence of the imps. Were the imps removed or repaired, his high attack rating, heat aura, fire resistance and ambidexterity would place him in the upper tier with the POD and Virtue. His combat stats are all equal or higher than the POD, and his path cost and combat abilities are superior to the virtue.

Having said that, even with imp removal... the 70 point paths make building a killing machine extremely expensive. Air and Earth magic are standard for most SC's, and selecting both bring the Moloch's pricetag up to a hefty 247 with FFF/EE/AA. While certianly feasible, I suspect players intending to use him as a SC and not a bless chassis will find other avatars to be superior in most cases.

How come nobody talks about their Shedus anymore? Wait! That pretender is perfect too.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see that your still demonstrating your ignorance of game mechanics and complete lack of social skills.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To bring a Moloch up to fire 9, dominion 6 costs you only 285 points. To do the same with the Phoenix costs 408 points. That's hardly a comparable role considering that the Moloch is a far superior fighter.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You will eventually reach the point in just about any game where a single SC will be unable to deal with the armies your opponent's can put together. At that point, you will be bringing an army along with him anyways. Otherwise he'll just be taken out by a four or five castings of ghost riders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not at all, since items give him everything he needs. Blood thorn, lucky coin, starshine skullcap, copper plate/cold dragon armour, quickness boots, lightning ring/frost ring, regen ring. After all, the archdevils don't need anything other than those items.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not a particularly effective build, since you can put only a moderate suit of armour on him to bring him up to high armour levels, and mistform breaks as soon as it is hit by a magic weapon.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This thread is not about the Shedu, which is why nobody but yourself is bringing up that off-topic irrelevancy.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He also starts with a high dominion, which is a point discount if you compare him to a lot of other SCs.

Starting with F3 is also going to give him a huge discount if you want to make him a fire bless *and* an SC (entirely feasible).

Lastly, when you are balancing, you can't aim for the top of the power curve or you will get balance inflation. How many of the available pretenders would be better but, also, how many would be worse ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To be fair, it's not a bad base, imo (could use one less or one more earth. Technically, he can summon earth to invulnerability (or just ironskin). Whether or not it's optimal, it is quite sufficient for the sake of the argument.

- Kel

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

The Moloch has a base Prot of 15 (same as all Devils) so there is no need for Earth Magic outside of those who have played with too many VQ's. A suit of armor will put him in the upper 20's which is by and large close enough for protection purposes.

I like the Moloch, I don't like his imps however, but the Imps do not make the Moloch 'useless' in any role other than a Blessing Strategy. It only makes him at current inflexible in his SC role early in the game (which is where SC's are most valuable).

AFAIK it is not the intention of IW to keep the battlesummon creatures routable as they are and finding the reasons why and modifying them to the vision of IW to work how they see them is in progress. That is the only answer that I can give you with any assurity.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for demonstrating that the Moloch was the cheapest chassis for a fire-9 base. I'm sure there were a few monkeys who didn't catch it. Thanks to this observation, I believe the debate is over. The Moloch is fine.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wonderful observation. I wasn't aware that a single unit wasn't the answer to all the game's problems. Since this revelation, I guess the Moloch is fine.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for clarifying the importance of items. I wasn't aware that flying humanoid meant a flying unit with humanoid slottage. I missed the unit that solved the routing imp problem, but you seem confident, so let's just assume the Moloch is fine.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It wasn't meant to be an archtype build for the Moloch, only to remind people that his path cost was extremely high. I don't really know where the mistform comment came from. Cloud trapeeze and mirror image are the key spells. Mistform is a toy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't find it irrelevant at all. The Last time there was a debate on a pretender chassis, you and a few others seemed hell-bent to disprove all arguments that he wasn't working well. You've replied to my post, which was made regarding comments that the imp bug was deliberately included to prevent the moloch from becoming an all-powerful SC. Clearly the moloch with imps removed would still be a magicly limited, yet physicaly powerful pretender... and the best chassis to use for a fire-9 blessing. Even with imps removed I doubt anyone would use him over other flying humanoids unless they wanted the bless effect. Therefore, imp removal would not suddenly catapult the Moloch to the top of the pretender tree.

You on the other hand, have made points that nobody disputes, least of all myself... making your post completely irrelevant. Obviously once again you are making an attempt to discredit your percieved foes by attacking their dominions 2 knowledge, spelling, or child care theories.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To a lot of others, yes... but not in comparison to the Virtue (4), and POD (3). It is higher than the phoenix (2), so maybe I might have mentioned it I suppose.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup he's the cheapest fire 9 blessing. Nobody disputes that. However, similar to the shedu (but obviously not as bad), having to tow around an army is very limiting, and often eliminates his 3-flying strategic move. My point was that making him a SC is prohibitively expensive. He will remain in the fire-9 blessing niche even without the imps. Using him as a thug is possible now, and since thugs aren't meant to solo, the imp problem is small. The option to spend outrageous points to make him a SC should probably be there, however. The imp bug shouldn't be the limiting factor here.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with all of this.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for demonstrating that the Moloch was the cheapest chassis for a fire-9 base. I'm sure there were a few monkeys who didn't catch it. Thanks to this observation, I believe the debate is over. The Moloch is fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where oh where is the Plonk button? Bah!

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's nice to see that you _completely_ missed the point. You made the argument that the Phoenix is a better chassis for a fire-9 blessing than the Moloch. Since it costs 123 extra points to get that blessing, and gives you a less useful combat unit at the same time, this is very doubtful.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You made the statement that he was clearly worse than both the virtue and PoD. Since he will be running around with an army for most of the game anyways, this isn't really that important.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's nice to see that you've now started desperately grasping at straws by deliberately ignoring what you wrote. I'll present it for you again here:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You stated that it was expensive to make him a killing machine, so I simply demonstrated that he works just fine as one even with no added magic whatsoever.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mistform with 2 air only gives you something like three or four images. That's nice, but not particularly useful. You'll expect to see size 6 tramplers coming after you if you rely on mirror images, and those will get rid of them very quickly. You also don't get to build the air boosting items without bumping it up to 3, which makes it not really worth the cost.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I was determined to show that you didn't understand the niche that the Shedu filled. He's the best there is for a very specific role.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is as ridiculous a statement as I've seen. You clearly don't realize just how fragile a virtue is if you think that people wouldn't use a Moloch over one.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to go back and re-read your own post, since you've ignored the problems with everything you wrote in making up your responses.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously you don't really have much of a clue about how the game works as demonstrated by the information you've provided. I'm attacking the mistakes you made in your argument, which means it might help if you didn't pretend that you had never made those mistakes.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The phoenix is not an SC, and I don't see any way that you could ever make him one.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You disputed it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which only shows that you don't know what is necessary to make one.

[ July 07, 2004, 19:53: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

Maybe we should simply change the moloch's description?

"The Moloch will surely shatter the world, unless his imps rout."

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I said the phoenix was a better fire 9 bless chassis? Why don't you quote that then? I like the phoenix. I don't think it's CHEAPER. Any idiot could tell you that the Moloch (and red dragon, etc) are cheaper chassis than the phoenix. And apparently an idiot has. Only a complete moron would try and make that argument, and despite your best attempts to paint me as one, I'm not a complete moron.

Do you really have nothing better to do than run around message Boards picking at people's Posts? On the other hand I do, and I don't really care to answer your every nitpick argument. You're basicly looking for another 120 post flamewar like the one you goaded me into earlier this month. You may enjoy such things, but I do not. I'm sure the Moloch will get fixed eventually.

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but you should already be aware of what I was responding to in the first place, since it was your message.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fire-9 blessing role is hardly filled better by a unit that is a hundred points more expensive for the same effect.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, yes, I do think that you are most likely a complete moron.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you can't be bothered to post information that's even relevant or correct, then don't complain when someone calls you on it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or, in other words:
"Boo hoo. I made a bunch of statements that were wrong and got called on it. Now I'm going to ignore that and try to claim that I didn't actually make them."

[ July 07, 2004, 20:20: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why don't you just admit it? You really don't give a **** about the moloch, the imps, or anything but trolling around looking for the next chance to post a page-by-page breakdown of other people's "inconsistancies" and "mistakes". Nice to see that now we have our own little Carmont the Cardinal... word lawyer and inquisitionist. Damn Canadians and their inferiority complexes.

I'm going to wait half an hour before posting this... just to piss you off as you hit F5 repeatedly.

[ July 07, 2004, 20:45: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol. sounds like someone's doing a little projecting doesn't it?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Petition to Save the Moloch!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I really don't see why you even bother posting in the first place if all you can do is post incorrect information with an attached lousy attitude.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to try getting over yourself.