Amazon Mod
 

A new mod made by PvK has just been made public.

Soon there will also be a mod by Stephan Weiss. It's about orcs. New graphics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Someone well know and trusted by the community.
*cough* Zen *cough* should gather all the mods
and make an 'official' package of modded nations.

Then we could playtest them, balance them, and
hopefully end up with something that people will
be Ok with playing competitively.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

I will be interested to hear what people think of the balance of Themiskyra, the Amazon nation this mod replaces Pangaea with.

It seems balanced to me, though different from any other nations, and certainly with many strengths. It does get off to a good start because of having access to all magic paths. Of course, all other nations have a chance to get all of the same abilities by late game, by taking independent Amazon tribes. The gem income is fairly weak too, and dispersed. The new units I added are mainly to provide something generic for PD, but the Amazon Leader and heroines have good thug and perhaps item-SC potential. And I added an (I think minor) stealth element. I think they're a lot of fun to play, but I'll be interested in elite high-magic-type players' opinions of their balance.

In later patches, or with some more graphic work, I hope to be able to modify the pretender choices and heroines a bit. Otherwise I think it is pretty complete and AFAIK balanced.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like it. It's not as overpowered as it looks, despite the ability to recruit sacred troops everywhere.

I've toyed with an Amazon mod myself in the past, except I didn't add extra troops bar the standard scout. My only capital sites were the 'Many Thousand Things' because it seemed thematically appropriate (Amazon tribes have developped many thousand skills while they lived apart from each other), and the 'Brigand Lair' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , also for thematic reasons: the four tribes are still competing for supremacy - thus the 'necessary' unrest. On the good side, it grants access to Villains - I assume Amazons need these renegades to mate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Hehe. Ya, it sounds like we did very similar mods, then. Since my scout is just an Amazon Version of the standard scout, your Brigands are essentially like my Wayfarers (except for the breeding part http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), and your Ten Thousand Things site is similar to my selection of 1-gem sites. The main practical difference would be my Amazon Leaders.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for putting this mod together http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I've been playing it a lot since it came out. It's definitely not over powered and allows several viable strategies. They only thing that I would like to see added is a capital only temple guard heavy infantry unit that is sacred and has higher protection and stealth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Leadman

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Thanks for the feedback!

I suppose it would make sense to be able to combine say the skill level and sacredness of Griffon Riders (minus the mounted bonus, of course) with say Onyx tribe armor, in a capitol-only infantry unit. It's sort of an interesting limitation though that they don't have such a unit, seeing as they do have so many other good units.

The only way I know to make a unit capitol-only, though, is to steal the unique Horse's Vale (?) site and mods its unit, but there are other mods that do that, which Amazon Empire mod would then become incompatible with, so maybe just wait for a mod command to do that. Or, I could add a unit type and then make them part of the starting army - you could never build more of them, but that could be interesting in itself (maybe more appropriate for some other mod - for example, would be a cool thing for Black Forest Ulm, actually, to give them some old Ulm units which they can't build).

Of course, there is already something sort of like this in the Amazon Leaders, but they're very expensive.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

i myself like the mod too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
it's really well balanced and not overpowered .
you really have all 8 paths but some only 1 lvl and most lvl 2 .

i think too they could need a capitol only special unit too because their national infantry is quite weak and the 4 sacred special units are either quite expensive or not worth making a bless strategy around like with vanheim or marignon .

and you have lower gemincome than any nation from the start http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

so if the new mod command comes only add 1 or 2 types of capitol only special troops but otherwise a really nice mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can do exactly the same thing with the Hidden Grove and change the Pandemoniac to your new unit. Since your mode replaces Pangaea it shouldn't be a problem at all.

Quite frankly, I don't think your mod needs an extra unit though. It's powerful enough as it is.

About bless strategies, I've found Earth-9 on Nightmares just rocks. 17 prot is decent for a cavalry unit, the extra reinvig comes handy since their other main weakness is their stratospherically high encumberance. And their Fear aura makes it like you have a powerful dual Earth/Death blessing. The aura works like a charm when you have enough of them. And OFC the reinvig is nice to have on priestesses - especially Crystal Amazons you use as communion slaves. Have an Onyx priestess/sorceress communion master boost that further with Summon Earthpower, add Relief support from Jade sorceresses, and you'll have to try real hard to lose a single communion slave to exhaustion.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Great solution, Nagot!

I think you're right that they don't need a blessed infantry unit. Their infantry isn't high-protection or sacred but it is skilled.

Perhaps the sacred unit should be a standard-bearer wielding the traditional gilt double-bladed labris axe. That would be thematic, add variety, and also provide an excuse to add a little to their cost so they aren't plain more efficient than the existing options.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

with special i didn't mean an additional blessed unit but one capitol only stronger expensive unit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tu quoque, Brutu! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Very strange, this apparently overwhelming tendency modders have to add standards or standard effects of all sorts to their units and commanders. Many mods available for download from IW share this feature!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you say so it must be so, although the reason why it would be thematic escapes me at the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isn't there enough yet? The only lack of variety I find in your mod is due to the omnipresence of only one gender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Well, if more variety is needed my first idea would be to add a Mata-Hari-like unit, similar in ability to the Ti'en Ch'i female spy (forgot the name, probably 'Consort').

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Well ya they have tons of variety already, with four types of good (if not high-protection) infantry, four types of sacred cavalry/fliers(!), and all magic paths covered, plus the common units I added... they're one of the most diverse nations around.

The Labrys axe is an Amazon icon, from ancient references to its use, and a symbolic link to the historical Amazonian dual queen system - the axe is double-bladed, and served a dual purpose as weapon and farm tool. I worked it into the flag icon, which is why it seemed "thematic" to me to have it as a standard. Maybe not, though.

Trying to avoid adding new stuff to them since they already have so much different stuff, and seeing no better armor in their current inventory, I'm thinking instead that maybe quarterstaff or Snake Staff elites might serve the purpose of these two requests, by giving a high-defense unit, if not a high-prot one. I guess broadswords would do it, too, slightly better (since the shield is retained for anti-missile survival) and without making them Jades (the snakes).

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Disable blood magic and have a 'freed blood slave' unit (or should it be 'liberated'?). Grrl power.

[ July 14, 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Amazon Mod
 

I would have liked nations/themes to be able to get their own national blood slave units -- Abysian blood slaves being fire-immune, Jotun blood slaves being larger and cold-immune, Caelian blood slaves being winged and cold-immune, etc. In this case, the blood slaves could be made male. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I'm greatly in favor of the Slave Liberation Movement (SLiM), and girl power in general (we are not only the fairer sex, but the more cunning one), there are already units to be found with plenty of girl power: Amazons and their affiliated gemstone priestesses/sorceresses.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that's it, *male* slaves. Males are larger (typically) and thus have more blood. Plus they double as beasts of burden. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

male bloodslaves aren't pure and innocent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
so a male blood slave only attracts a succubus but no other demons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
well perhaps some of the arch devils and so on are gay than it would work too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ July 14, 2004, 19:31: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thoughts don't count in regards to purity and innocence. Trust me on this: at any given age, girl's locker rooms are by far raunchier than boys. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isn't it the *blood* that's supposed to be the attraction, not what's hiding in the crotch? The rituals involve killing and bleeding the victims, not rape by demon.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

The manual is very specific, repetitive, and possibly even fetishistic on the topic of blood slaves. Only female blood is sufficiently powerful, and only virginal females are sufficiently pure. No doubt the Amazons capture and enslave weak-minded, man-loving (in an innocent sense) women to fulfill their blood slave needs.

I've only seen Jade, Garnett, and Onyx Amazon units. What kind of sacred troops do you get from the super-hard-to-find Crystal Amazons?

Re: Amazon Mod
 

OT post intended to be tongue-in-cheek, read at your own peril ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but one must also consider that the game was designed by a bunch of *guys*. heh <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this mean that females are stronger than males in the truly important areas? (ie: something other than muscles) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Which indicates that it's the touch of males that is a corrupting influence, not females (as many religions imply). Of course, when it's males that hold those religion's high offices, naturally it's in their own interests to point the finger elsewheres. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man-loving -> weak-minded. Hmm. See earlier comment re: corrupting influences. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that the ultimate example of this is still the Vampire Queen. Nothing like having a bloodsucking ***** for a god.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Heh!

I too had thought of wanting to be able to make the Amazon blood slaves male, but sadly there's no way to mod that (yet?).

Vynd, I haven't found the manual to be repetetive, specific, or fetishistic about the gender of blood slaves. Just hunted and didn't see where you might have meant, either. Or were you mainly being funny? The references I remember are from in-game - I know there is one in the Blood Hunt short mouse-over text, which says "(B) Capture girls ...", but there is a more elaborate description (in game, I think - I can't remember where now), which I remember as saying, "(typically young girls)".

I had thought of making a freed blood slave unique heroine as a not-so-tough holy-4 priestess, but just lacked time to do the graphics before I wanted to release it.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but then if you empower it in blood and make it cast a spell, the game crashes.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but then if you empower it in blood and make it cast a spell, the game crashes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PvK is talking about creating a new unit. The problem you mention is connected to the existing blood slave, which I imagine is hard-coded to its ID.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

This nation calls for a rainbow pretender, because only the nature site searching spell can be cast by default. For everthing else you need a jade sorceress with some very lucky double picking.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was a joke, Arryn.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Oynx priestess gets dark knowledge. The Crystal amazons give you air and astral. The Garnets give you blood, and the jades give you nature and water. All they miss natively is fire and earth if you aren't lucky.

[ July 15, 2004, 20:19: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Oynx priestess gets dark knowledge. The Crystal amazons give you air and astral. The Garnets give you blood, and the jades give you nature and water. All they miss natively is fire and earth if you aren't lucky. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems you'll have to edit your post one more time, Graeme, since the Crystal witches haven't the requirements to cast Auspex. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The inqusition finds one of it's own guilty. By virtue of this one error, all Posts by Graeme on this topic are now rendered irrelevant.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was a joke, Arryn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry. Hard to tell at times with you, with your admittedly half-senile memory and all. hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

OK, I've played with the Amazon mod for a bit, and I agree that the lack of rainbow gems is really hard on them. And rather unwarranted, considering how rainbow magic focused their army is.

I suggest:

1&gt; Starting magic sites should be "ten thousand things", and "catacombs" at the least. For flavor, they should probably also have a "damned merchant" - although that's really not important.

2&gt; What the hell is up with the price of the Amazon Leader? She costs as much gold as a Jade, Garnet, or Crystal Priestess (and more resources). She isn't a preacher, she doesn't have two paths of magic, and she can't even lead more troops. It's not like she can make a super combatant or anything, so she's just horribly over priced. The bulge she has over a 30 gold commander from an adjacent province is virtually nothing (even the reduced upkeep from sacred isn't really a reduction, because her base cost is more than twice as much) - she should have a lot more leadership or cost a lot less, maybe both.

Other than that, this mod is really cool, thanks for putting it up.

-Frank

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Thanks for the feedback, Frank!

By "rainbow gems", I assume you mean one of every gem type. I understand it'd be nice to have that, but I decided not to for two reasons:

1a) It would be 7 gems per turn, which would be more than most other nations, so I'd consider it an advantage compared to others for balance purposes.

1b) They do have a big advantage in having all paths on their extremely varied recruitable mages, so they can generally find most or all gem types quickly, and can site search quickly and easily without any magic on a pretender, so the initial deficiency can be made up for quickly.

So what I did was give them "half-rainbow gems" (if you will), where each of the four tribes' strongest gem is in the starting mix (except Garnet's blood, which they can hunt immediately anyway - but they do get their secondary, fire). So I think this is a healthy, interesting, and balanced starting position, without seeming too strong compared to other nations in the unmodded game.

The Amazon Leader is a unit I like, but you're not the first one to be puzzled at the cost versus its abilities. The reason I didn't give them higher leadership was partly thematic, because priestesses and sorceresses are the leaders of Amazonian society. The reason the leaders are so expensive is their sacred status and their fighting skills and stealth. An Amazon Leader with blessings and some magic items can be pretty potent at least against ordinary units, though it's true she's unlikely to reach SC caliber. Comparing to say the TC Prince General at 150 gold and the Sidhe foot leader at 140 gold (two other sacred leaders, which I suppose some players might also disdain), I think her price is in the right ballpark as she is now (or maybe slightly high)... if you were going to use her the way I had in mind... which many players probably wouldn't. That is, I had in mind to use them for their skills as thugs, archers, and leaders of stealth raiding parties, and/or with blessings. So my mistake, I think, was that she has some niches, but her obvious role is as an ordinary commander, for which she seems overpriced.

I also confess that some of the reasons I didn't add a couple more unit types were that if I add any, they won't line up so nicely by tribe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, and that it's so much work for me to create and tweak the graphics.

In general though yeah, I think I mostly agree and would tend to add a general leader who isn't sacred and lacks stealth and such high skills, and who costs a more typical leader cost.

Perhaps what I should do instead is increase her leadership. That way she can still be used for niche roles, but will also be an efficient choice for leading armies around.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Now that I am thinking on it, I am not so sure if the Amazon Leader should have a better leadership. Not having a decent, specific leader makes sense thematically, and it is a nice twist from most other nations (the only other nation without a "charismatic" leader is Spring &amp; Autumn T'ien Ch'i, with its 80 gold leader for 25 leadership).

Giving her some priestly authority may be another idea. She would not have the magic skills of the Priestesses, and so would still be at the lowest end of the magic Users of the nation. Her priest levels would be useful to bless herself while on a stealthy mission, and/or to do some stealthy preaching. Since the Amazons do not have a stealthy sacred troop, it would still prevent the use of "elite blessed stealthy taskforces".

Alternatively, the Amazon Leader may be given the status of spy, if you consider her to be able to disturb the "ordinary" life of the people (hence an Instill Uprising ability). Giving her a Succubus-like ability might have been an idea as well, where the "seduction" would probably be much closer to a direct abdunction through more mundane means. I do not think you can alter the odds of success of the seducting unit however, so it would very likely not work here.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

But does it make sense that the amazon troops would find male leaders ( remember, most indie commanders are male ) so much more appealing that they would follow men in greater numbers than they would their own amazon leaders?

As things stand, people would either recruit male commanders from independent provinces (cheaper, possibly better leadership) or, and this would be my choice, ignore the Amazon Leader and simply recruit Garnet Priestesses as commanders - the same price in gold, higher leadership, priest ability, and fire / blood magic, so they cost less upkeep, lead more troops, bless and double as researchers / combat mages.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

well the garnets certainly follow men... with a knife http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Amazon Mod
 

All good points. (Academically, there are others with no great leaders - see for example Broken Empire.)

Having an Amazon that is more efficient at leadership than independent commanders seems thematically good, and reduces the fiddliness of having many commanders to lead troops around. On the other hand, independents will still be pretty cheap and efficient, and have the irreplacable advantage of not requiring a fort to hire. Meanwhile an Amazon player will still have to decide whether to hire a spellcaster or a leader in each fort province, and so may go with independents anyway just so they can hire more spellcasters. Hmpf.

All told, I think I'm still tempted to simply increase the Amazon Leader's leadership.

PvK

Re: Amazon Mod
 

One severe problem with the "half rainbow gems" they have now is that the minimum gem production of any group in the entire game is five - and that shows up even on pure martial factions like Ulm. More "Magic" oriented factions get substantially more gems. Any of the all-dead Ermors get 10 gems each, but the Amazon's closest analogue (Spring and Autumn Tien Chi) is still walking off with 6 gems per turn.

I say Tien Chi is their closest analogue, because they can recruit 3 sacred leaders for a total of 515 gold who collectively have access to all paths of magic except Blood and have 3 random picks. That's at least as good as what the Amazons can do (unless you're just dying to find those Brigand's Lairs), and they start with 6 gems (gems which ironically can pump right into the whole national summonins things which are pretty awesome).

So I don't think it would be at all out of place for them to generate six or seven gems a turn, one from each type they are supposed to specialize in.

-Frank

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Not quite- Abysia Blood of Humans has only four.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

I stand corrected then. There is a single, wretched set-up that produces only four gems. But it has lots of problems. Anyone else think that it's great idea to trade your heat aura for throwing axes?

The lack of gem production is one of many flaws with that set-up, and is simply evidence that there just aren't any viable starting positions with less than five gems.

And the point that the only basic Rainbow Mages with crappy normal leaders get six gems/turn and some starting access to summoned monsters still stands.

-Frank

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Well Abysia BoH has cheaper mages so 1 gem less to alchemise is not that significant .

And a lot depends on wich gems you get e.g. atlantis can pretty quick start to produce clams and get a bit extra gem income .

Fire gems are not so useful while pythium/caelum/ryleh etc. have more viable starting gem income .

But the difference in starting gem income of 4 for Abysia BoH and 10 for ermor is not really big and gets normally pretty quick insignificant .

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Suggestions for mod update:

1. Another stealth soldier, because the Wayfarer is extremely weak, and loses its effectiveness as the game progresses.

2. Give Amazon Leader some priest ability, because if amazonian society is ruled by priestesses, she should have some idea of religion.

3. A little more gem income, because the amazonian lack of great magicians* and unique units (Crystal Amazons are really the only ones that are practically impossible to find) make it much weaker as the game progresses. Also, it takes forever to get enough gems to actually use a really good spell.

Otherwise, this mod is awesome.

P.S.: The idea of a male blood slave sounds good, but wouldn't amazons feel that men are too pathetic tp even think of sacrificing them to a God? A male slave (suicide troop) sounds more appropriate.

*Although covering many fields, amazonian magic is weak, with the exclusion of the Jade Sorceresses, but those are the easiest kinds of amazons to find.

Re: Amazon Mod
 

Thanks for a great mod PvK. It's great to have a strong matriarchial nation available. That said there are a few things I modified to suit my own tastes.

Your heroes are well balanced but a bit bland for such an exotic nation. I don't have the mod I made available on this computer but I made a caster (Amazon Queen with a pick in everything save nature,holy and water), An immortal elite infantry unit (fragile but persistent), an assassin (since amazons lack any stealth) and a superleader. Nothing fancy (save the Queen, itemforging mayhem) and perhaps silly but more of a reason to pick a luckier scale.

The units are a bit similar. Made the Jade light skirmish with leather armor and slings, Garnet expensive elite melee, Onyx heavy armor defenders and gave Crystal daggers. Made griffonriders into expensive elite commanders (two flying sacred units was a bit too much) and dropped the holy status on the lizard riders (made them cheaper as well to allow higher production).

Jade tribe is largest size so units are cheap and "common", Onyx guards the sacred sites, Garnet have changed their ways to fit in with the new ways and Crystal remains as they always have.