A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

If commander A casts communion slave in round 1 and commander B casts communion slave in round 2 and commander C casts communion master in round 3, will C be the master of A or B or A and B or none of the above? What if commander D casts slave in round 4 -- will C then be master of all 3? What if commander E casts master in round 5? Basically, wondering if there is a general rule here.... thanks much!

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

i don't know much about communion yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
so a similiar question comes to my mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif :

how does it work with multiple communion masters ?
you could e.g. take 3 arch theurgs with 4 communion slaves each to battle as pythium .
will then every of the arch theurgs have a communion with 4 communion slaves or what's the result ?

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

At any given time, -all- Communion Slaves are considered slaves of -all- Communion Masters.

Note that you are only a Communion Slave/Master once you've cast that spell (unless it's automatic, which it is if you have the appropriate crystal matrix, or are a Pythium communicant). This can cause some issues if you have a particularly fast Communion Master.

For instance, suppose you're playing Pythium and have an Arch-Theurg leading a large communion of Theurgs, Theurg Acolytes, and Communicants. Suppose also that the Arch-Theurg is very experienced, and has the ability of Heroic Quickness from being in the Hall of Fame (or, more easily, by wearing boots of quickness). His first two spells scripted might be 'Communion Master' and, say, 'Summon Earth Power' (perhaps he's an earth mage, and you want the communicants to get reinvigoration).

Well, the Communicants will all get the 4 reinvig from SEP, since they're all automatically communion slaves. Any Theurgs/Theurg Acolytes that acted -before- the AT will also get it. Any only act later, however, will not (unless they have the crystal matrices) because they're not yet communion slaves; hence, these will not get the reinvigoration.

Now, if there were another AT who later casts Communion Master, both Communion Masters benefit fully from all the slaves -- and all the slaves will get fatigue from both ATs' casting, which could be rough in a long battle unless there's earth or nature magic (earthpower, relief) available.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

thnx taqwus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

are there particular spells which are extremely nasty with a communion especially for pythium killing sc's or would it be better to have several arch theurgs casting e.g. soul slay without the communicants ?

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The spells you *do* cast, even if it is soul slay or paralyze will benefit from increased magic level and, therefore, better MR penetration, for every communion master. You might especially consider using Enslave, depending on what SCs you are talking about and the risk/reward for that particular SC.

The nice thing about communion is, with randoms, it gives you tons of flexibility in the spells you can cast so it will depend on what kind of SC you are facing and what your research level is. To be more specific, with a base A2, communioned arch theurgs could cast some nasty orb lightnings but does the opposing SC have shock resistance ? There are a ton of spells that are situationally useful, resistance to elements, storm, wrath, etc.

Petrify is a popular SC killer but might be tough with Pyt. Takes a random in earth and what, 16 slaves if you don't have a path enhancer ? Well, 8 and a couple gems maybe but still...

And, of course, the stamina reduction/diffusion don't hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

- Kel

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

hm does communion also increase the holy levels ?
with banishment : does a higher holy level only increase the area effect of banishment or also damage / chance that it does penetrate the undeads mr ?

if it works like i think could a powerful communion than perhaps even successfully banish undead sc's or even e.g. a vq ?

@kel of course you get a bit higher chance but it is only 1 point higher penetration per 2 points of astral magic . so if you take 64 communicants you get +3 penetration but this is the absolute maximum which is possible i think .
but you are right it's a nice sideeffect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

but how does phönix pyre work ? it says that the caster revives as long as he is not fatigued out ? can you combine this with a huge communion and so make the phönix pyre user almost undefeatable because he should not fatigue out as long as the communion slaves are not killed ?
especially if you take a 0 encumberance char for this like a pod/vq ?
is there a item which casts communion master at the start of battle ?

what are very good massdestruction spells where damage and/or area of effect/number of effects ... increase the higher your skill in the path is ?

[ July 12, 2004, 15:17: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

Enslave and Soul Slay could be nice, but it's possible to outfit an SC with an eye towards extreme MR (the most outrageous extreme kit might include Magebane, lead shield, Amon Hotep, armor of souls, antimagic amulet). And if the SC is backed by mages casting spells like Antimagic, ugh.



One might note that since communion boosts effective casting level, not only does penetration increase but also a number of spells increase in range, damage, number of effects or both. Orb Lightning, for instance, is an obvious one for Pythium to try against decently armored enemies. In terms of unresistable spells, Petrify is there but as noted is not easily available; Crystal Mages could help here (earth-2, astral-2; give earth boots for earth-3; cast SEP for earth-4 and reinvig). Against lightning-immune SCs with decent MR, you might want to put penetration-bonus items e.g. rune smasher (+2), spell focus (+2), even ring of sorcery or wizardry (each +1, and +1 to relevant paths) if you can.
Power of the Spheres + Starshine Skullcap + somebody holding Banner of the Northern Star + 8-15 communicants = +6 astral level; Ring of Sorcery, Wizardry, or a Tome of High Power would be another +1 without attracting horrors if you can afford it.
+6 astral should give on average +3 more penetration (+1 per 2 levels above what's necessary) +maybe +4 in penetration items (rune smasher/spell focus) should give ~+7 penetration on your Soul Slay/Enslave Mind which should make it not too unlikely to work against an SC who's meant to resist physical and elemental damage and not just magic.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, communion increases holy levels as well.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes but the point is that it is better penetration on EVERY master, every cast. I am not talking 64 communicants, I am talking 8 communicants, 6 archs (just for example) and maybe a couple of spell focuses or a BotNS to help. Yes, against uber MR SCs, you won't get far but that was the point of why it's not the same for every pretender (and why I listed some other options *cough*). 18 MR SCs are quite reasonable to take down with astral. Try 6 quickened archs casting Enslave with 2-4 penetration (that's 12 MR checks per round with a 2-4 mod). I have picked up many SC's and national heroes that way (though mostly as Arco).

- Kel

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

You may want to reconsider using Phoenix Pyre cast by a communion master unless your entire army is fire-immune. The spell affects any communion slaves, as well, and an unlucky death due to a lucky arrow or spell could result in a very dramatic chain-reaction of massive explosions wiping out large chunks of your army.



Under some circumstances it may be possible to abuse this effect, but if you're not prepared it could backfire on you very, very badly.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

Cast Resist Fire first, then cast Phoenix Pyre, all slaves get the master's buffs, therefore they are all fire immune. Not that Phoenix Pyre is that useful alone, with Relief it is devistating though.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

Ah, the Great Exploding Communicants. What fun that one is.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it only takes 8 slaves even if you don't have path enchancer item. And yes, it is good SC killer, especially with penetration items. And even if you don't penetrate you can hold SC in bay indefinetly with paralization sideeffect.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeap, it's nice, but enslave mind render all these SC and national heroes mostly useless by stripibng them of commnader status and all their items/abilities. You can GOR them bacl of course, but it takes gems and the items are still lost. If I have a chouce I would prefer Charm spell, since it gives you commanders impact, and use my communion mastered astral mages for other spells.

[ July 12, 2004, 22:03: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does Phoenix Pyre still do concussive bLast damage rather than fire damage, though? If Phoenix Pyre is still bLast damage with the flash effects mostly incidental, then you'd be better off with invulnerability.

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, did I miss something ? 8 slaves = +3 to paths + 1 starting = 4 and petrify requires E5 iirc.

You could use gems but then you don't even need 8 and I mentioned that already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Depends on what you are facing* (think i mentioned that twice now). Enslave, I don't know, say a tarrasque and see if it is useless. Sure, its not as good as summoning one yourself...but, gemwise, it's free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Charm is dandy but your penetration is going to be worse and most of your mages, remember we are talking Pythium here, can't cast it at all so I would hardly say that was a good replacement.

- Kel

[ July 12, 2004, 23:18: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, did I miss something ? 8 slaves = +3 to paths + 1 starting = 4 and petrify requires E5 iirc.

You could use gems but then you don't even need 8 and I mentioned that already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are forgeting a little spell called Summon Earthpower. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It good for your communion slaves as well. 1 random + 3 from 8 slaves + 1 from SEP =5

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Depends on what you are facing* (think i mentioned that twice now). Enslave, I don't know, say a tarrasque and see if it is useless. Sure, its not as good as summoning one yourself...but, gemwise, it's free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Charm is dandy but your penetration is going to be worse and most of your mages, remember we are talking Pythium here, can't cast it at all so I would hardly say that was a good replacement.

- Kel [/qb][/quote]Hmm does Charm really has lower MR check than Enslave? Do you have some hard numbers?

[ July 13, 2004, 00:10: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Kel: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Stormbinder: Nope, it only takes 8 slaves even if you don't have path enchancer item.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, did I miss something ? 8 slaves = +3 to paths + 1 starting = 4 and petrify requires E5 iirc.

You could use gems but then you don't even need 8 and I mentioned that already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are forgeting a little spell called Summon Earthpower. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It good for your communion slaves as well. 1 random + 3 from 8 slaves + 1 from SEP =5

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm does Charm really has lower MR check than Enslave? Do you have some hard numbers?

[ July 13, 2004, 00:36: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: A Question of Timing 2: Communion Master/Slave
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I didn't forget it and it wasn't in the original equation. I suppose you could empower too, along those lines.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure but they do'nt need to be calculated, given that Pythium can forge astral enhancers and they start with one less than the path requirement for enslave, while most of your archs can't cast charm at all *and* the rare ones who can are 2 below the minimum *and* its a bit harder for Pythium to make nature path enhancers than astral path enhancers *and* charm is a higher level spell...I think its pretty clear that while charm is a possiblity, given no other factors, it isn't an obvious replacement for Enslave.

- Kel

[ July 13, 2004, 02:05: Message edited by: Kel ]