Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

I love my Treelords and envision my Ents marching to victory.

Unfortunately, my opponent envisions the forests ablaze.

Is there any combination of items, spells, or wily tricks which can take my Treelords from 50% Fire Susceptible to 100% Fire Resistant?

Any help is appreciated!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Sure. Because of a bug, the Burning Pearl gives 100% fire resistance instead of 50%. Add a ... dragon helm, or a fire sword, or fiery armor, etc, it should be easy to get 150% added on, even without anything hard to get. (As long as you have fire magic / gems.)

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

I think Treelords are devoid of both hand and body slots, unfortunately.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

You know, one way to improve treelords would be to give them an 'Awaken Woods' command. When in a forest province it would summon (also immobile) mini-treelord-like troops. A bit like the elemental royalty 'Summon Allies' command. After all, the Treelords have the same gem cost as the kings/queens.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

I'm afraid you don't understand the depth of the problem. It has to do with the mechanics of resistance.

Let's say I equip the Treelord with a Burning Pearl (100% FR) and a Ring of Fire (100% FR). I still have only 50% FR because the maximum the game will allow me to get from items is 100%. Since I start at -50%, I only get to 50% FR.

But I'm clever and elect to empower my Treelord to Fire-1. I then script the Treelord to cast Fire Resistance. Unfortunately, the AI does not elect to cast the spell (for good reason I will learn later).

Thinking the problem is I have partial fire resistance and the AI won't cast the spell since it would be "wasted," I script for Fire Shield (which confers a 50% FR). But Fire Shield adds nothing to my Burning Pearl and Ring of Fire. I remain max'd out at 50% FR.

So perhaps some of the Gods of this game with greater understanding than I posess can chime in and tell me that it is hopeless. It is probably designed into the game this way that if you are fire susceptible, you can never be fire immune.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can get to fire immune from fire susceptible, but it takes more equipment slots than a Treelord has.

The stacking rules for item immunity is currently that no immunity of a given type and magnitude stacks with an immunity of identical type and magnitude: Thus, you can stack 100 FR with 50 FR for 150 FR, but you cannot stack 100 FR with another 100 FR, or 50 FR with another 50 FR.

As for spells, a unit refuses to cast spells for resistance if it currently has ANY resistance. Also, it does not appear to be the case that resistances from the same school of magic will stack with themselves: Instead, the best is used.

One thing you can try is maybe stacking "Phoenix Power" (50 FR, Fire) with "Resist Fire" (W+E Version). PP should raise resistance to neutral, which means that he should still be willing to cast resistance.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can stack two 50 resistance items for 100 resistance. A good example is an elemental armour and a sculuta volumnus.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Your Treelords have Nature magic, so I would sugest this:

Equip them with a 100FR item, and then script them to cast Elemental Fortitude. With the spell providing FR,LR & CR the AI will be less likely to ignore the scripting as it is doing with Resist Fire.

This should give you the 100% FR you are seeking.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But you miss the point, Graeme. If I am 50 in the hole, adding 100 only gets me to 50. I'm trying to get to 100% FR. I need to add 150% in fire resistance. My testing shows this can't be done with items alone.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not the experience I had, where I tried to stack a firebrand with a charcoal shield in attempt to attain 100 resistance, which didn't affect anything. Are you sure this works? Unless this was changed in the recent patch, past experience says that this wouldn't work...

[ July 13, 2004, 07:56: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These were very helpful suggestions, Norfleet! I appreciate your time.

Good point about the Treelord being limited by it's slots. I searched for a unit with full slots that was vulnerable to fire and found the Icaryd Champion.

The item theory may have been true in earlier Versions, but testing in 2.12 shows that the maximum you can improve any one resistance via items is +100% from baseline. I used a Icaryd Champion with -50% Fire Reisistance (50% Fire Susceptability) and gave him a Ring of Fire (100% FR) and a Dragon Helmet (50% FR). He gets only 50% Fire Resistance.

I also tested your theory out about different schools of magic perhaps offering the possibility of breaking the 100% cap, but alas, it was not to be. I tried multiple combinations of Pheonix Power, Resist Fire, Fire Resistance, Fire Shield and even Wendigo's suggestion about Elemental Fortitude. The way the game is set up, the maximum you can get from any combination of items and spells, regardless of school, is 100% above the baseline.

Anyone else have suggestions for work arounds?

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Graeme is right about this. You can stack two 50%'s and get to 100%.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

I throw the challenge out there:

Can anyone propose how an Icaryd Champion might be equipped, empowered, and then scripted so he ends up with 100% Fire Resistance?

If someone can come up with a solution that works in Version 2.12, I will crown them

M A S T E R O F T H E G A M E ! ! !

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

It would appear that this has been changed, then, since I very clearly remember ending up with 150 FR through the Charcoal shield + Fire Ring combo. It no longer goes past 100? That would suggest that it's now impossible.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Strange. The general rule is that you can stack item+item+spell, & you cannot stack spell+spell.

Ok, one Last shot in the dark to test that cap you are banging yourself against:

Equip your commander with a 100FR item, and place him in the middle of a 20 or so men unit. Then script a nearby mage with gems to cast Fire Fend...he should target the group despite the partial resistance on the commander. Tell us if it stacks or not past the +100 cap.

If it doesn't work you should report it as a bug.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Strange. The general rule is that you can stack item+item+spell, & you cannot stack spell+spell.

Ok, one Last shot in the dark to test that cap you are banging yourself against:

Equip your commander with a 100FR item, and place him in the middle of a 20 or so men unit. Then script a nearby mage with gems to cast Fire Fend...he should target the group despite the partial resistance on the commander. Tell us if it stacks or not past the +100 cap.

If it doesn't work you should report it as a bug. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the only bug in question is the old AI bug preventing the casting of full resistance if the something in question already has any lesser resistance. You CANNOT make a tree totally immune to fire with mere items. You would need the tree to be able to cast spell granting resistance, and that is impossible.

About the Icarid Champion question. Is it possible to cast Resist Fire after he has gotten to 0% resistnace/suspecibility with eg. Charcoal Shield, and does this raise the resistance to full 100% res. or only to 50%, for a total of 100?

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Flame Helmet + Red Dragon Scale Mail = 125%
No need for spells. Haven't tested it on the battlefield with spell augmentation, though - I just had a look at one of my commanders so equipped.

Under 2.12, is the extra 25% wasted though? i.e., is the 125% treated as truncated to 100%?

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

I wonder if its worth testing whether the bug is in the fire resistane, or in the displayed FR%?

IOW, can you, say, incinerate a unit with a hell sword and a dragon helmet?

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

lol

funniest thread of the day

so i guess, as things stand, the only rule is that there is no rule http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

anyone want to check cold, poison, and lightning resistant items/spells?

(btw endoperez, the "resistance bug" shouldn't affect the suggested method of putting the one commander in a group of units - the spell should still work on the whole group. maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Boy, Norfleet is the Master of the Game. I wonder how he comes up with this stuff! Trogdor!

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Back to the subject, it reminds me of bumper sticker that I saw:

Kill The Beaver, Save The Trees!

(sorry, could not resist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ July 13, 2004, 21:52: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet, I pronounce YOU the MASTER!

There are at least a couple bugs here, guys.

Dragon Helmet alone = 50% FR
Charcoal Shield alone = 50% FR
Ring of Fire alone = 100% FR
Burning Pearl alone = 100% FR

Charcoal Shield + Dragon Helmet = 50% FR. [50% low]

Charcoal Shield + Burning Pearl = 100% FR. [Correct if Burning Pearl truly gives "partial" protection, i.e. 50% FR]

Burning Pearl + Dragon Helmet = 100% [Correct if Burning Pearl gives 50% FR]

Dragon Helment + Ring of Fire = 150% [Correct]

Charcoal Shield + Ring of Fire = 150% FR. [Correct]

Ring of Fire + Burning Pearl = 200% FR. [50% high, if Burning Pearl gives 50% FR]

In my previous testing, I was using the Burning Pearl, assuming it gave 100% FR.

Bug #1: I can see why Norfleet was proposing a theory that you can't have two FR's of the same % add -- that would explain the Dragon Helmet + Charcoal Shield result. I'll check various combinations for this later to verify.

Bug #2: Burning Pearl is sometimes worth 50% FR and sometimes worth 100% FR. Bizzarro!

I wouldn't have found this without your specific comment about Charcoal Shield and Ring of Fire, Norfleet. I didn't think it would work at all and was flabbergasted when it did provide the right amount of FR. I had been using the Burning Pearl for that extra +4 attack and thus my error. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Graeme is right about this. You can stack two 50%'s and get to 100%. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">BTW, my test "confirming" this was Burning Pearl + Dragon Helmet. Now it looks like Norfleet was right, Graeme -- since Burning Pearl is bugged.

For example, Hell Sword (50% FR) + Dragon Helmet (50% FR) = 50% FR [50% too low]

[ July 13, 2004, 12:51: Message edited by: Inigo Montoya ]

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Here is my understanding of the Fire Resistance Bug:

Burning Pearl is worth 100% FR.
Ring of Fire is worth 100% FR.
Red Dragon Scale Mail is worth 75% FR.
Elemental Armor is worth 50% FR (as well as 50% CR and 50% SR).
Three of these items work correctly. All will add FR to each other. Burning Pearl has an additional bug, see below.

The following items will offer 50% FR individually, but will add no additional FR if added to any other one of these items ["Norfleet's rule" = two or more 50%'s will add nothing -- with the strange exception of Elemental Armor, above]:
Fire Brand
Flambeau
Dragon Helmet
Charcoal Shield
Fire Plate
Staff of Elemental Mastery
Sword of Justice
Ember
Rober of Callius
Amon Hotep

If any of these items are paired with Burning Pearl, they will add nothing -- another strange quirk.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 14, 2004, 03:38: Message edited by: Inigo Montoya ]

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

God help me.

This is so confusing.

I thought Elemental Armor was supposed to offer 100% immunity for Fire, Cold, and Shock.

But my testing shows 50%...

Thoughts?

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

Elemental Armor was reduced to 50% like the Spell Elemental Fortitude for the sake of balance, not allowing a single piece of armor to protect you from every element.

Elemental Resistances on Armor types do not stack if they are the same type if it's from an Item, however, if the Item's resistances are not coded to a spell the spell will stack with the Item.

The Burning Pearl is wonky. If you have some inconsistancies with it, it's because it's bugged.

Re: Save the Trees! [Fire Susceptibility]
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, you have summed it up nicely, Zen. Time to update your excellent item stat reference. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You make an interesting point about item resistances on armor [edit: and weapons] not stacking (distinguishing item resistances from miscellaneous slots). This doesn't hold true for Red Dragon Scale Mail or for Elemental Armor though.

But essentially, resistance is currently working as designed, eh?

[ July 15, 2004, 03:11: Message edited by: Inigo Montoya ]