So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I mean how about it?

Nothing more fun that seeing your casters casting lots of buffs once the 5 spells are cast. It's cool!

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

BTW, I can't not WAIT to hear from the people who will argue that it would "upset balance".

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I never want to hear this phrase in reference to such a thing to my face. Because if anyone ever says this to my face, I will slug them.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

Sounds like a great idea... all depends on how time consuming and complex it would be to make this work for dominions_2. A way for gamers to disable spells for commanders would also be great.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again you and I are in agreement.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are also plenty of times when you also want your casters to buff themselves and those around them after they run through their script.

And yes, there is definetly a chance that game balance would be affected when a SC could buff themselves to complete invulnerability. For example, with an unlimited script, I would pick something like:
Quickness, invulnerability, soul vortex, phoenix pyre, resist magic, iron will, elemental fortitude, resist lignhinng, resist fire, resist cold, resist poison, summon earthpower, body ethereal, personal luck, astral weapon, astral shield, breath of winter, fire shield, mirror image, mistform, personal regeneration, strength of gaia, etc.

You know that the enemy will eventually surround you, which is really what you want, since you can continue to buff at a rate of 1 spell a round after that point. Or you could tell them to attack for a single round to make sure that you get close enough to do some damage while you contiune to power up.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I certainly would enjoy more control over combat, and particularly over my mages.

I think what this comes down to unfourtunately is a conceptual decision on the part of the designers. The amount of control, that is limited control, that you have over the mages is fairly consistent with the amount of control you have over the combat as a whole. I might even say that that is pushing it, and that the mages actually are more flexible than any other part of the combat engine as it stands.

Comparing to MoM, HoMM, or AoW in all of which every unit gets round by round control by the user, Dom2's mages are already getting very special treatment compared to its Inf, Cav and Archers.

I'm not saying that I don't think expanding the spellcasting interface and level of user control is not a FANTASTIC idea. I'm just saying that as it stands, I find the current level of mage control consistent with the rest of the package.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I would just like to state that I LIKE the limited control. The idea with "Cast specific spell" would be cool. though, as would a "attack mages", which would target the nearest character that had cast a spell.

Attack leaders, however, would be extremely uncool.

All this is in thread with my "Micromanagement is bad theme".

(If I had my way, you would not be able to build armies except at your capital. At all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That would also make light infantry more useful.)

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

The option to enbale/disable spells from the casting selection screen would suffice. You would still have to choose whether to cast or attack after the fifth, but if you choose to cast at least there would be some control to avoid casting spells that are inappropriate/unwanted.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you just need to rethink your playing style. I've found that I can greatly reduce the level of micromanagement I suffer through a few simple adaptations to my playstyle, and avoiding certain micromanagement-intensive nations. This allows me to easily complete even the late-game, massive-map turns in less than an hour easily. Going faster helps, too!

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I think a lot of this discussion could be eliminated with the inclusion of two new commands into the combat orders screen. Both would be under the "rest of the battle" window with the now confusing "cast spells".

1) Cast Only

Pretty simple. The Mage will only cast a single particular spell. If he has no valid targets, he waits for one. This might be Orb lightning or relief, whatever floats your boat. Probably most useful for nuking mages who often waste time summoning ghost wolves.

2) Cast Either

Simple concept again, right? Pick two spells. The mage will cast one or the other, depending on the situation. A Seithkona might take Nether Darts and Healing Light... death mages on drain life and raise skeletons. You get the idea.

It's a pretty simple concept, and it solves a lot of the headaches with the order system. Nothing will replace phase-by-phase control, but that's not really feasable in a pbem game really. I think this is a pretty quick fix and should probably be implemented at some point.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would be more than happy with this one feature! It would be great.

Or how about just a "cycle" for the spell list, ie: once it is done, do it again from the start.

Both would be easy, would not be a big improvement for SC's and would help national casters out ( which is IMO a good thing ).

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was not making an argument but stating an opinion.

I am also of the opinion that most of time the spellcasting AI makes fairly reasonable decisions. Its just that the unreasonable ones are so silly that they stand out as a "vocal minority". I have also seen infantry, cavalry and archers make some ridiculous targetting decisions or routing in a won battle.

So I reiterate that the current level of mage control is scaled appropriately with the total level of tactical combat control in Dom2.

Could the AI be improved? Indubitably.
Would more control make combat more interesting? Perhaps.
Is the design of the Dom2 combat engine well proportioned and consistent? I think so.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm a big fan of this idea. If I'd seen this thread I would have posted my comments here instead of starting a new one. Regardless a command of this kind seems like a simple and powerful addition that the devs could make. Plus it won't be unbalancing cause you are trading off versatility for predictability in combat.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

Well we all know the root cause of the problem, and that is overly simplistic AI.

A Mage should be able to make some basic checks to his situation... if there are nothing but mages on one side of a battle, they should not be buffing themselves repeatedly into unconciousness while the enemy waltzes up and skewers them. Mages should know when they need to be casting attack spells rather than buffs. Lastly, the AI should be aware of fatigu state, and not try to cast spells that will knock itself out.

Assuming this is too difficult a problem to fix, then there are some simple patches that can be done to minimize the impact af the AI, and these have already been mentioned in this thread (and I am sure elsewhere):

1) extend the script... I am not talking about unlimited scripts, but just to 10, which ought to cover some of the longer battles in dom2.

2) "cast offensive" and "cast defensive" in addition to the "cast spells" option. This ought to do the trick for the most part, and would not rquire extending the script.

3) Change "cast spells" to alternate between offence and defence. Once the script runs out, the mage should alternate between attack spells and buffs instead of just picking one spell it likes and going crazy with it.

All these I think would be good solutions, and hopefully not too difficult to work in.

For sure the current situation of mages buffing themselves to unconsciousness and then getting slaughtered is not what the designers had in mind!

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree in principle; I'm all in favour of minimising micromanagement and quite happy to accept that playing at the Grand Strategic level means not having much control over tactics.

But your argument falls over if un-scripted mages are incapable of making rational spell-casting decisions. Note I say rational, not optimal. Reasonable but sub-optimal behaviour is fine, but completely stupid behaviour is just a cause for player frustration.

So if Illwinter seriously improved the spellcasting AI, that would be a fine solution. But that sounds like a lot of hard work, and a good result may not even be achievable. Or they can give players more control, so that there are less choices available to the spell-casting AI. Less work for the devs and less frustration for the players.

Mark

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not really my experience. It probably depends on which mages you're talking about of course; ones with a fairly narrow range of spells often make OK choices (my N3 druids often more-or-less default to Relief, which is super). On the other hand my Arco Mystics - thanks to 2 astral and up to three elemental paths - have an enormous range of battlefield spells, and don't they just like to try them all? All the shields first, naturally. It's not the occassional really stupid/suicidal decisions that I notice - they're always good for comedy value - it's the turn after turn of just failing to contribute anything useful to the battle.

To reiterate back; the design and the concept are great. The execution - depending as it does on quality AI - is spotty. If a player doesn't have control, and can't trust the AI, then he's doomed to frustration.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For the most part I would agree. Doomed is a bit strong of a word. But in a competitive situation it could be the case.

I will admit to never playing Arco past Turn 10 or so; But the 3 path Machakans seem to do alright. I do hate when they cast Fire Shield/Ironskin as soon as the script runs out even though the enemy is routing and they could get another kill or three.

I stand by my initial assertion though because, this means that expanding the casting list would just be a bandaid-fix to what is really bothering most players, the AI. Not that the level of control available over mages is inadequate to the design.

I would surely love to see a "do not cast" list or a checklist system in place but that doesn't seem to be as likely as a bit of AI improvement.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I would much rather have a better casting AI than a longer queue. But I don't know if that will happen until Dom 3. Being able to tell a mage to just cast one or two spells would be really nice, though. But I very rarely need a queue of different spells to go beyond six or seven. Most SCs will run out of fatigue by then anyway.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

"*cough*...*ahem*...is this thing on ?"
"Testing..1..2..3.."
"Ok, all mages please report to tent 12 where official spellbooks will be distributed by the labmaster general."
"Per article 13a, governing Battlefield Magic & Authorized Application, any mage caught with a spellbook not authorized by his commanding Special officer or using other unauthorized magic means or paraphernalia, may face severe penalties, ranging from demotion for minor deviations to feebleminding for repeated offenses."
"You may now return to your normal research...Dismissed!".

- Kel

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not nearly as bad as when the mages either start : casting useless spells that use gems (summoning elementals after the enemy has routed); casting spells that start frying their own troops (Breath of Winter). Nothing like a mage killing of her own bodyguards.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I have little desire to make SC's more powerful.

If the bottom list had "Continue Casting this spell" in addtion to "Cast spells" I would be a happy camper.

It would make things *much* easier on those of us who actually like using mages instead of SC's. But if I have to join the dark side I guess I must!

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you just need to rethink your playing style. I've found that I can greatly reduce the level of micromanagement I suffer through a few simple adaptations to my playstyle, and avoiding certain micromanagement-intensive nations. This allows me to easily complete even the late-game, massive-map turns in less than an hour easily. Going faster helps, too! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with you. I have learned this lesson as well. But I still would like to a) reduce micromangement futher and b) oppose suggestions that increase the same. So I prefer "cast this spell" to 10-deep queues (though in practice, it probably won't matter due to the ctrl-1-copy-commands-trick).

I still think that it would be cool to be forced to produce all troops at the capitol. At least as a mod... hmmm... that could be done. perhaps. Zap all independents; make all troops capital only?

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

I am perfectly happy with the spell AI, its choices (BoW aside) are not worse than those of the average Dominions player.

A longer script would only result in increased MM.
We are all playing under the same conditions after all: if you have 5 spell choices, so does your opponent.

If you are familiar with the AI's targetting scheme, and careful with battlefield placement & research priorities you will get much more out of the spell AI that someone who doesn't.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

How bout adding the option Cast offensive spells. This would keep your mage from casting buffs, and if you don't care about that, just choose Cast Spells. The only thing that irritates me you can only cast four spells, if you want your caster to attack at all. If you don't choose attack as your Last command, he'll just stand there casting spells. Nothing like seeing your buffed out SC lobbing fire flies at the enemy for the entire combat.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That gives you five spells, not four.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That gives you five spells, not four. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps Vigabrand has been playing shapechangers, in which case you usually only have 4, given the lack of "shapechange and attack" and "Shapechange and cast spells". Shapechange has to be the 5th scripted.

And the AI isn't even bright enough, lacking explicit instructions, to keep it from killing off melee monsters (like the CD) by having them casting spells, if they aren't explicitly instructed to attack.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

The even more vexing thing about shapechanging is that it's a toggle, rather than "change to X".

This means that your pretender can go into a battle in his human form, and start casting his buffs. Midway through, he gets struck by a stray arrow and changes back....but he'll keep plugging away at his script, meaning as he reaches the end, even though he's already in his beefy form, he will then CHANGE BACK and CHARGE THE ENEMY WITH A SPOON.

This goes downhill from here.

Re: So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dang! I hadn't seen that one.

What just slew me though was watching the brain dead AI illustrate perfectly why either the casting queue needs improvement, or the AI does.

One artillery pretender, 3 Tuathas, and 1 bard - laying waste to the enemy independent infantry. Something like 30 out of 40 infantry killed, when the first few make it up to where the mages are. No problem - Tuatha have great defense, mirror images intact, fatigue okay.

And the @#$@# pretender casts Immolation, killing about 3 light infantry. And killing the bard, and 2 out of 3 Tuathas. End of battle and retreat. The pretender had _lots_ of other short range offense spells to cast, but went with immolation. Actually - I think he damaged _himself_ with the spell too probably.