Mixed unit morale
 

How is morale effected in a unit when different individuals in the unit have vastly different morale?

Case in point, i had a large army of mixed vampires and imps attacking a province in my own dominion, Every single unit was lumped into 1 group with orders to attack immediately. (i figured every unit was either immortal or expendable). During the course of the battle i noticed the imps took heavy casualties but never ran away... So how exactly does the game compute the morale of a unit when its members have vastly different morales? Is it just the morale of the most common unit type? Is it some form of average? which would be wierd due to the strange morale numbers that have additional meanings (30,50)

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

i would guess it is some form of average .

the manual is not too helpful there but a small hint is in the description at page 17 :
when the average morale loss is greater than the number of units in the squad , the squad may rout .

so a very big squad helps . i dunno exactly where are borders but when i have e.g. 100 principles in 1 squad they don't start routing before there are only 20 - 25 or so left in my expierience .

an interesting test would be a horde of 200 imps or 200 barbarians or other very low morale units . but i guess until there are only less then 50 left they will never rout .

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

if you have a patient enough friend you could try it :
battle 1 : attack with 200 imps
battle 2 : attack with 100 imps + 100 vampires

if the 200 imps routed when they were mowed down to e.g. 100
but the 100 imps + 100 vampires didn't rout until only 50 or 40 were left than this would strongly speak for an averaged morale .

but vampires have only a 1 higher morale : 10 compared to the imps 9 so they aren't good for the test . and only immortal commanders never retreat or ?
so the test would be much better with devils and imps because devils have 30 morale so an averaged morale should be at ~ 20 for devils and imps in equal proportions .

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

Experience suggest it's a weighted average.

Say you have N units with morale X, O units with morale Y and P units with morale Z, all in the same sqad, the morale of the squad will be

(NX + OY + PZ) / (N + O + P)

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

It seems like it must be more complicated than a simple weighted average though, because certain morale numbers mean certain things. In the .pdf on modding it states:
"Giving a monster 50 in morale makes it mindless and prone to dissolvement due to lack of proper leadership. Undeads with mind but nothing to lose usually have 30 in morale."
Maybe im taking too much from that, but it seems that having a morale of 50 actually causes changes beyond being more brave. Hmmm... im going to try mixing some living statues in with imps and see what happens.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

I don't think there's any actual weighting: The morale of the squad is simply the average morale of the squad, with the exclusion of "special" morale (30,50,99) units, which are resolved seperately. Part of the reason your vampire/imp squad didn't rout is because a large 200-man squad must sustain a comparably larger amount of pain and suffering before a morale check is performed, whereas a smaller squad is checked with fewer losses. The cruddy morale of the imps is only slightly bolstered by the nearly as cruddy morale of the vampires.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. I should have written 'Experience suggests that for units with morale Ratings of 30 and below...'.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But what kind of average morale? If as you suggest it isn't weighted, a squad of 24 militia and 1 Emerald Guard should have the same average morale as a squad of 1 militia and 24 Emerald Guards, obviously this isn't the case.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's...not quite the definition of average I'm used to seeing. You're arguing that the unweighted average income of 35 CEOs and a starving beggar is the same as the average income of 35 starving beggars and one CEO. Obviously, that's not the case!

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

NGF seems to be calling "weighted average" what most people would simply call an "average." Maybe I don't have the terms technically straight, but a weighted average would seem to imply some factors beyond simply the values and quantity of numbers involved, since those are already included in an average.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It actually is the case, since your not using a very precise definition of average.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably - what I mean by weighted average in Norfleet's example, is 35 CEOs weight 35 times more than 1 beggar, thus the weighted average would be (35 x 1M$ + 1$)/36 = 975000$ (approx.)

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but 35 CEOs only weigh more than 1 beggar because it's *35* vs *1*. It's not because there's an inherent property of the CEO which causes his income to bear more weight, as weighted average would imply.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isn't that the exact definition of a weighted average?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, someone could argue that CEOs can afford 3 meals a day precisely because of their income, while beggars spend most of their time on empty stomachs - thus in a sense the CEO's income bears more weight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">'Weighted average' never implied such a thing. It seems the misunderstanding began when you wrote

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">which made me truly wonder what you meant by 'average'. As it turns out we both meant exactly the same thing. I'll try to be less precise in the future. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it isn't. I think this may be a translation thing, but where I come from, an "average" of values is equal to the sum of all of the values, divided by the number of values, whereas a "weighted average" assigns an additional term, a "weight" to some, but not all, of the values, thus evaluating the values unequally for the purpose of some bias: For instance, a weighted average score of a single player's per-game kill counts, with more emphasis, more weight, given to his more recent games, because players tend to improve rather than regress, so more recent values are more representative than older values.

If, for instance, larger units had a greater impact on the squad's morale, this would be a weighted average. However, squad morale is simply the summation of the morale values of each individual unit independent of any other factors, divided by the number of units in the squad - it is an unweighted average.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it isn't. I think this may be a translation thing, but where I come from, an "average" of values is equal to the sum of all of the values, divided by the number of values, whereas a "weighted average" assigns an additional term, a "weight" to some, but not all, of the values, thus evaluating the values unequally for the purpose of some bias: For instance, a weighted average score of a single player's per-game kill counts, with more emphasis, more weight, given to his more recent games, because players tend to improve rather than regress, so more recent values are more representative than older values.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the clarification. In that Last case, I would have used 'biased average' - I think I've seen it used at least once , but maybe it's uncommon usage - or is it used for yet another kind of 'average'?

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

I can't believe you numbskulls have to argue about the definition of average. Any fourth grader knows that to find the average add em up and divide by the number of things.

[ July 18, 2004, 08:56: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They wait until *FOURTH* grade to teach you that now? Man, the educational system is really decaying. I had no idea it had gotten this bad.

I think the issue at hand here is what "add 'em up" and "number of things" is. Nagot must have been thinking that the set of things was {Militia, Emerald Guard}, and that therefore, the relative numbers were a "weighting", whereas I was thinking the set was more like {Militia, Militia, Militia, ...., Emerald Guard}, and thus it was not weighted.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

Well it would be pretty stupid if you could "fix" a whole group of elephants by throwing in one elite unit. I think common sense would dictate that it is done the other way.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">O Wise One, maybe someday you'll have to learn Japanese and will face exactly that kind of problems when posting on Japanese forums.

Anyway, you're right. Technically I'm not a 4th grader, or 27th, or even 1st, since I never had the (mis?)fortune to follow courses in the US educational system.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, that is one average, often called arimetric average. You could also mulitply the numbers and then take i to power of the reciprok number of factors... that would be the so-called geometric average. And so on. And often it makes more sense to use a median anyway.

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you must know I'm a product of Nishimachi International School, in Tokyo, Japan. I spent my first 6 years of grade school in the international school system and speak fluent Japanese. Sorry to bust your superiority bubble, but I never spent a minute of my life in the "US educational system".

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did I write Japanese? Oh my bad, I meant Portuguese OFC!

So the point remains. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Mixed unit morale
 

Why ?

9 units with morale 10 and 1 with morale 15 has an average (squad) morale of 105/10 = 10.5

9 units with morale 15 and 1 with morale 10 has an average (squad morale) of 145/10 = 14.5

...

there is also a squad morale bonus for the siege of the squad (but no one exactly know how it is).

You can read more about morale in the manual addenda

bye bye
Liga