get that bull out of my grove!
 

I play CW more then the other themes. I can't remember his name at this time, but there is a hero that is a minotaur and has 3N 3Bl for magic skills.

well no thank you. Get your *** in the lab and don't let me see your face again.

I'd like to see this guy eliminated from the CW theme and replaced with a different hero.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yikes! here, take my bong

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

I could see the problem there. Hmmm do themes get seperate heroes? I guess they do.

Can you suggest a CW hero?
(in my recommended preference)
Tartarian Monstrum?
Ancient Presence?
Treelord?
Ivy King?
All of those would seem fitting. They arent priestly, arent tied into any human presence or semi-human presence, and dont eat.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Is this the only one of the regular Pangaean heros that CW gets? If not, what makes this guy any less thematic than the Ram's Horn guy or the Harpy Queen? Or is your complaint that blood mages are hard to use with CW?

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

CW gets both the Black Bull and the Harpy Queen, in addition to its own Ettin Mandragora hero.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

CW uses the anti-priests with red candelabras. I think there is a problem when a white candelabra shows up. Im not sure. There may be some friendly-fire problems with banishment also.

And CW tends to depopulate provinces. The "people" population is replaced as the provinces are "returned to the primeval state". Only the more plant-based creatures are considered completely welcome. That means food problems. Of course a hero with nature magic can feed itself but maybe its not themeatic.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh - CW gets lots of white candelbra priests - dryads. Admittedly they're mostly only useful for building temples and doing some minor site searching, but they can also do stealth preaching. Still - it'd be nice if CW's dryads could lead at least _some_ carrion critters, say 10 or so.

And I haven't found the food / supplies to be a real issue with CW. Provinces that are down to less than 1000 population, still producing 75+ supplies. A handful only producing about 25, with 290 population.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While it's true his blood magic isn't much use for CW, it's not entirely impossible to use it, and at least you *CAN* stick his *** in a lab. That's more than can be said for other less than impressive national heroes of other nations, which not only lack any special attributes of note, but also cannot be parked in a lab, never to harass you again.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While it's true his blood magic isn't much use for CW, it's not entirely impossible to use it, and at least you *CAN* stick his *** in a lab. That's more than can be said for other less than impressive national heroes of other nations, which not only lack any special attributes of note, but also cannot be parked in a lab, never to harass you again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Yeah, gotta love national heroes who aren't as good as the recruitable commanders, and don't even have a research skill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

About the Blood Bull with CW - yep, that little bit of blood can definately be used. Not so much for summonings or battlefield magic, but B3 is high enough to do some fairly nice blood forgings, and it's not that hard to get the 5-20 slaves you need for each item.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">haha. no thanks but i got a good laugh out of that. Its not like i'm *really mad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Yeah you can get some forging out of that guy, but that's sad that its the highlight of what he can offer you. I also think using him for his blood magic is clumsy at best. Not only are you completely wrecking your population every turn (its my personal belief that your dominion should be no less than 8), your only getting a smattering of summons. Not so hot for combat blood spells either since those research points are needed elsewhere.

suggestions for a replacement hero? I guess a carrion lord hero would be appropriate. Or a black dryad.

[ July 19, 2004, 22:16: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, at least he offers THAT much. Some national heroes offer you even less. Take, for example, th Caelumian hero, Caelos. He gives you a P2...who isn't flying. As if you didn't already have flying, stealthy P3s. He has no research ability, so he doesn't even contribute that much. He's clearly more mediocre than the Bull.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

WTF? That bull is good. Hell any unit with decent hps and some magic skill is a potential SC. Tell you what, I'll trade you for "The monster in the maze" from Arco Golden Era.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Think on to Ulmish Heroes, default and IF ...

All knights with some better stats than their comerander not uniques...

I believe Ulm could have a Forge Master blacksmith hero with 50% Forge Bonus for default, and an Uber-Priest lvl 4 at least for the IF. IF should need too a templar national hero sacred.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

hey i'm not trying to start a 'my theme has worse heroes than yours' argument. All i'm saying is that the bull....for CW...is kinda bull.

[ July 20, 2004, 01:35: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's still a _free_ N3 mage, with level 3 in an additional path of magic. Considering that CW's Panic Apostate's cost 320 gold, and CW has a problem with income, it's not bad.

Sure - it would be better if it were a heroic Panic Apostate, with just a little something extra - N3D2E1 say. Or with assassin ability, or H2. Or a special Carrion Lord, with some death magic in addition to nature.

But - it's still a perfectly fine hero for CW as is.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you give him the Hammer of cyclops and forge everything for free? Perhaps not...

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, most themes have heroes that don't fit in.
THink about Last of the Tuatha, all Man heroes. Even though they are not bad, they dont fit.

By the way, the worst hero out there is the machaka guy with the big club

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone loves the Log Wielder!

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

[quote]It's still a _free_ N3 mage, with level 3 in an additional path of magic.[quote]

it doesn't fit in. It doesn't belong. Hell the ettin is a lvl 1 unholy priest. That's not the greatest in the world either, but its still thematic. That's my statement. This is not a difficult thing to adjust. I'm sure its quite simple. So I pointed it out.

Everyone loves a log prinz, go out and get your log.

[ July 20, 2004, 13:11: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I remember correctly, there should be another CW hero, a mandragora with N1 D1. Either that, or CW spawns leaders like ermor

[ July 20, 2004, 13:14: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it fits. He's a corrupted nature mage.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you give him the Hammer of cyclops and forge everything for free? Perhaps not... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Ulm should start with a feebleminded knight commander with 8 morale, 8 strength named 'Cohen'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone loves the Log Wielder! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ja, Caelos is definately crappier. He's a priest with a ring of cold resistance.

What about Whatshisname, the Wolflord? Great, a midget on a wolf.

I don't exactly jump for joy when the Master of the Games, the fat guy on the lizard, or that other non-priest hero of Pythium show up and start using precious oxygen.

But not every hero, I suppose, can be a Stargazer or a Dude with an Iron Crutch. And all of them use less upkeep than "A group of zealots have decided to hold out their hand for a paycheck".
I think a remnant of old Pan isn't completely out of place in CW.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Imho a hero should be as strong as one of the better summons. Why? They are unique and should
be capable of doing some heroic deeds.
Those guys that are only a bit better than your average commander aren't worth the title.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the champion of a nation should rival Abomination, you say? Or maybe you mean King of Elemental Earth.

[sarcasm]
Yeah, sure, there is only one dude who was born that night and given that name and who found a unicorn when he was a kid, while there are *3* dudes who are embodiment of the Earth, Stone and Rock (or Magma) itself! And he is *weaker* than *them*! What fun is in a free commander, better than your own, often expensive ones, when after 25-35 game turns, level 5 mage and 50 gems you will have a better fighter anyway!
[/sarcasm]


Those heroes *are* capable of doing heroic deeds. But they are mortals, and won't be able to kill hundreds or thousands other mortals all alone (except when pillaging for several years). Some might have survived through hundreds of gladiatorial battles and will still give any human a good fight, and who might stand on his own (for a short while) even after several if he was given even the simpliest protective gear.

And Spornsjarl (I think, the Vaetti hero for Jotunheim) is not only a *stealthy* commander, but also much better at it than other stealthy commanders available to Jotunheim AND also has *standard*. No more routing! He won't be *as* *good* as stealthy Holy-4 prophet would, but he might be just enough.

---------------
Star Control 2 is *good*. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said all heroes are bad.
But if you look at R'lyeh, you will see that their heroes are capable of dealing with elemental kings/queens.

By "better summons" I actually thought about something bane lord sized. He is a midgame summon, not invincible, but there are only few heroes able to beat him when both meet unequipped. Take the log guy for example.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Perhaps the heroes are part of the overall balance? Now, T'ien C'hi, who is often said to be too weak, has strong heroes. They might not be able to kill Bane Lords, but they have wonderful abilities and all of them are highly thematic.

Also, the point of all heroes is not to fight. Some can command more units that your normal commanders, some have special abilities (Master of the Iron Crutch! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ), some offer your nation magics they don't usually have (that high), some are just thematic, some offer more of what you already have and some are combatants. Good or bad, it doesn't really matter. They weren't developed to rival gods! Good heroes are special abilities of some nations, just like type of armies, heat preference, priestly power and magical specialisation mentioned in their description.

Also, imagine your opponent's face if Spornsjarl the Vaetti Hero (or champion, or whatever) gets the Heroic Hitpoints -ability and doubles the hitpoints of his bigger "friends"... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif That will probably never happen, but who knows. This is
Dominions II, after all!

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I completely agree with you. The Tien Chi heroes are very usefull and thematic. I think that most caster heroes like the harpy queen for pangaea add something special to their nation, like a new magic path or some other special ability (like the pan assasin). I was writing about pure melee heroes.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And some heroes are just there to make you curse and grumble that you didn't get somebody else, once you've seen them a few times and realized that they can't seem to do anything useful except walk in circles around your territory.