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Draconian Mod Under construction
http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/lofd.jpg
Currently I'm working on a mod which makes a Draconian playable race. Also with uniqued weapons, armor and spells will be added. At the moment I'm calling the mod 'Draco'. My thoughts on a Draconian race will be more diffrent from the summoning draconians which I'm also going to change with this mod. It's gonna be a strong race but expensive. No archery or Cavelries and the troops don't uses shields with exeption for one of the units. Main weapon: Spear, pikes, Helbards and staffs. Magic Paths: Fire, Air and a little Astral. Priest magic: Average. The Draconians will be added with some cool abilities instead. I'll post a little bit later which kind of units and heroes I made....Just tweaking some of them a little bit to fit nicely. Ideas, critics, suggestions are welcome. Best regards Thilock [ August 01, 2004, 09:30: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Illwinter's first game, Conquest of Elysium, had dwarves, elves and draconians as playable races, among others. There the draconians recembled your description quite well, some were immune to cold, others to fire, third had poisonous attack... Unfortunately, you cannot play as them in the demo.
Are the magics all on the same mage? If not, how are they divided? How expensive mages are, and are their forces closer to Jotuns than to humans? |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Unfortunately I havn't try Conquest of Elysium :/...but it sounds cool. Ahem....back to the questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif : One of the priest Called as simple as Temple Priest, it's a combo, It have Astral, air and holy magics and cost at the moment: 350 gold and 30 resources. Then we have a Draconian Elder which have: Fire, air and one random, prize: 290 gold/ 18 resources. So they magic paths a little spread. The only paths which all magic Users have is air with execption for the 'Arcane Changling which all magic paths are random.
Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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i am looking forward to your mod because i like draconians . they were my favourite race in aow 2 shadow magic too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Thanks Boron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The Draconians was my Favorite race too in AOW2.
Oh, I forgot to mention that the draconians will have a "hero" called 'Changeling' which can assassinate other heroes. The little story behind 'Changeling' and 'Arcane Changling' are some of the Draconian eggs was redicated with magic rediation and change the DNA of these draconian. this make them possible to change appearance (Awe(1), and illusion) Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
As promised I'll post some of the units that are complete on the paper.
Normal Commanders which will also be present in province defense: Draconian Commander HP: 14 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MIR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 1 STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10 Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot 15622 Weapon: Iron Dragon Spear (602), Bite (20) Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20) Cost: 150 gold/10 resources Draconian Lord HP: 15 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MIR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 1 STR: 13 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (75), Flying General: Expert Leader (50) Item Slot 15622 Weapon: Falchion (10), Bite (20) Armour: Scale Mail (7), Helmet (20), Round Shield (2) Cost : 180 gold/ 18 resources Next are Wizard like: Draconian Apprentice HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MIR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 1 STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11 Abilities: 2 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying. General: Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Dagger (9), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost : 130 gold/ 5 resources Draconian Elder HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MIR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 1 STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 13 Abilities: 3 Fire, 3 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival. Fire res (75), Flying General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 290 gold/ 18 resources Temple units, can only be bought if temple is present: Temple Servant HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MIR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12 Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50) Holy, Heal, Flying, Female General: Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost : 160 gold/ 15 Resources Temple Priest HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MIR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 1 STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12 Abilities: 3 astral, 2 air, 1 random, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350), Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal General: Good Leader (50) Item slot: 15622 Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 350 gold/30 resources Temple Lord HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MIR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1 STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12 Abilities: 3 Holy, 1 Fire, Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival, Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal General: Expert Leader (75) Item Slot: 15622 + 4096 Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20) Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12), Helmet (20) Cost : 320 gold/25 resources Special Heroes, can only be bought at the capitol: Changeling HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 14 MIR: 12 ENC: 4 AP: 12 MOVE: 2 STR: 11 ATT: 12 DEF: 12 PRE: 14 Abilities: 2 air, 1 Fire, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1), Mountain Survival, Fire res: (50), Magic Being, Spy, Assassinate. Ambidextrous (2) General: No leading, Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: 2x dagger (9), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 250 gold/25 resources Arcane Changeling HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 14 MIR: 15 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 10 ATT: 11 DEF: 10 PRE: 13 Abilities: 6 x Random magic, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1), Mountainsurvival, Fire res: (75), Magic Being, Spy General: Good leader (50), Good Magic leader (50), Item slot: 15622 Weapon: Arcane Staff (600), bite (20) Armour : None Cost : 300 gold/ 35 resources |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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So you have a flying mage-assasin who is also a spy and has awe (+1) and glamour (I think you ment this). The base commander you described earlier costed 150 gold. Are you sure that Stealth, Assasination, Spy, magics of 2 and 1, awe higher than that of Dryads and Glamour are not worth more than 100 gold? His only weaknesses, when compared to base commander, are: no armor, magic being, capitol only. One of the things I skipped, base precision of 14, makes him really evil. After researching Evocation 2 your assasin will hurl Lightning Bolts (14+ an dmg) with precision of (14+7) 21. If that is not enough, at alteration and enchantment one he has access to Fire Shield and Aim, and if given even one Fire gem he will be able to cast Sulphur Haze. So to protect your commanders from this assasin you have to give them immunity to lightning, fire and poison. This is without magic items on your assasin. Up their cost, probably lower or get rid of the magics, lower awe to +0. Quote:
Recheck the resource values. Resources are supposed to show the value of equipment, gold the value of training+the value of the creature's abilities. Gold costs might be little too low (compare to both Caelum and Jotunheim), but resource costs vary too much. Mages take more resources than the warrior-commanders! For almost all their mages, up their gold cost. Especially for Temple Servant, as they are holy, flying Air 2 mages and the upkeep and great mobility make up for cost. You seem to have left the price of them being Draconian out - they fly, have some natural protection, more hitpoints than weakly human mages... One thing you have not yet written but that matters a lot is their size. Both because of supply value and for the problems they will face against swarms. Remember that wings up their size by one from what it would be without them. Also, consider giving the base units either little higher gold cost or little lower att/def than you would think they need, because the wings get on the way of fighting. They are not coldblooded. Is this intentional? I could ask the same for poison resistance, but I fiqured that since C'tissians already fill the role of poison-resistant reptiles you decided to give that a pass. Question about naming: why the weapons are named Dragon while their makers Draconian? Maybe Draconian or Draconic would do better. Besides, Wooden Dragon Staff seems... problematic. Maybe Dragonbone Staff? Draconian Quaterstaff? Or just Quaterstaff? Also, if something is made of iron there is no need to mention that. Iron is the common material, and only those more rare (black steel, bronze) need to be mentioned. [ July 20, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Endoperez ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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So you have a flying mage-assasin who is also a spy and has awe (+1) and glamour (I think you ment this). The base commander you described earlier costed 150 gold. Are you sure that Stealth, Assasination, Spy, magics of 2 and 1, awe higher than that of Dryads and Glamour are not worth more than 100 gold? His only weaknesses, when compared to base commander, are: no armor, magic being, capitol only. One of the things I skipped, base precision of 14, makes him really evil. After researching Evocation 2 your assasin will hurl Lightning Bolts (14+ an dmg) with precision of (14+7) 21. If that is not enough, at alteration and enchantment one he has access to Fire Shield and Aim, and if given even one Fire gem he will be able to cast Sulphur Haze. So to protect your commanders from this assasin you have to give them immunity to lightning, fire and poison. This is without magic items on your assasin. Up their cost, probably lower or get rid of the magics, lower awe to +0.[/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, I meant glamour. I see the problem you mention and I'm gonna rebuild it. The Idea to give it awe and glamour was to illustrate that the changeling can change shape continuesly and adept form depending on who it's fighting. (confusing and astonishing the enemy) Quote:
Recheck the resource values. Resources are supposed to show the value of equipment, gold the value of training+the value of the creature's abilities. Gold costs might be little too low (compare to both Caelum and Jotunheim), but resource costs vary too much. Mages take more resources than the warrior-commanders! For almost all their mages, up their gold cost. Especially for Temple Servant, as they are holy, flying Air 2 mages and the upkeep and great mobility make up for cost. You seem to have left the price of them being Draconian out - they fly, have some natural protection, more hitpoints than weakly human mages... One thing you have not yet written but that matters a lot is their size. Both because of supply value and for the problems they will face against swarms. Remember that wings up their size by one from what it would be without them. Also, consider giving the base units either little higher gold cost or little lower att/def than you would think they need, because the wings get on the way of fighting. They are not coldblooded. Is this intentional? I could ask the same for poison resistance, but I fiqured that since C'tissians already fill the role of poison-resistant reptiles you decided to give that a pass. Question about naming: why the weapons are named Dragon while their makers Draconian? Maybe Draconian or Draconic would do better. Besides, Wooden Dragon Staff seems... problematic. Maybe Dragonbone Staff? Draconian Quaterstaff? Or just Quaterstaff? Also, if something is made of iron there is no need to mention that. Iron is the common material, and only those more rare (black steel, bronze) need to be mentioned. [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Thanks for the suggestions,Endoperez http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Draconians going to have size as same as Caelum. The naming issue why I've choosed Dragon instead of Draconic or Draconian is that the Draconians are related to the dragon race and their weapons are decorated and/or with dragon figures, like the wooden dragon staff which is a normal staff with a dragon head carved at the top of the staff. Also I'm gonna make new Version of these staff that can be forged which have diffrent abilities dam etc. Thanks for the critics I need that to make this race better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif best regards Thilock Edit: The Coldblooded, poison res. issue: I thought of it, but somehow I found it in contrast with coldblooded and mountain survival. [ July 21, 2004, 06:18: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Like the Idea, Boron.
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Edit: updated the the mod banner [ July 31, 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
I need some help with a good nation name for the Draconian based race. I'm totally blank. The ones I came up with is something like Dracondia, dracusia.
I'll soon post the whole units and commanders list. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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i think with move you mean strategic movement . you have a couple of flying units with movement 1 statistic so far . if you really mean strategic movement with that then it is pretty worthless . you still can only move 1 province / turn then . so for strategic movement the flying ability is in vain . in battle it will still be helpful . but it depends whether your troops are flying through storm too ( don't know if this is a modcommand i am unfortunately a modding newbie ) or not . so when your draconians really have only 1 strategic move and not the ability to fly during storm in early-late midgame their flying ability will be even almost useless in battle with one staff of storm the enemy uses . so an suggestion by me : all flyers should have strat move 2 , this way they are still quite mobile but not as mobile as mictlan midgame demon / vampire armies with strat move 3 or caelum . because your troops are stronger than caelums most likely which is thematically absolutely needed for draconians http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 strategic move would be a good choice i think . furthermore you should make all draconians unable to fly during storm but 1-2 ones : an air/storm dragon unit and perhaps one air/storm dragon leader . perhaps you can make 4 kinds of dragons ( like in gothic 2 ) : 1 storm flying air dragon , 1 flying fire dragon , 1 not flying but tough earth dragon , 1 flying ice dragon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif or if it is possible you could mod 3-4 of my above mentioned dragon kinds as special nation only summon spells like tien chi's celestial soldiers . anyways looking really forward to your mod . unfortunately i am no good name giver too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif my names would either be plagiarism from e.g. d&d / dsa or boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
maybe you can give dragons a very high gold cost to balance them, something like 800-1100 gold. It might be thematic, after all dragons are known from their love of traesures. They may lend their help to the draconian race for huge soms of gold.
Also you might want to consider a small HP increase to all units/comanders (accompanied by some small increase in cost). I suppose a draconian race should be physically strong. looking forward to your complete mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Boron
I'm not sure if it's possible to give a specific nation some specific spells yet, I'm gonna check when I'm home. Still alot of modding codes aren't avaible at the moment :/...So some of the things I have to add when Illwinter patches Dom2 (I hope they release another patch soon with some cool codes). You convinced me to put the dragons into the nation, atleast to see how it works. 1. The dragons gonna be expensive. 2. Only recruitable in the capitol. 3. Not stronger than the Pretender dragons. Also I was thinking of making Pseudo-dragons (a lá BGII ^_^) Some very cute-pink-fluffy-bunny-like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , very weak creatures with blur...only I thought, dunno if I'm gonna make them. Quote:
best regards Thilock [ August 01, 2004, 17:37: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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The standard Draconian gonna have HP: 14 and str: 12, magic Usersand priest a little less, heroes and commanders a bit more. You think it need more? best regards Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
What weaknesses does this race have?
I can see gold cost as being the major one, but that's about it. Is it really necessary to have their mages be amongst the most powerful in the game? Their most basic mage is quite powerful already, and they have a staggering THREE top-tier mages. How many other nations have access to lvl 3 (excluding holy) in three different magic paths, with NONE of those mages being capital only? And the arcane changeling effectively gives them access to all paths of magic. Way, way too powerful. At the very least, you should remove the astral mage. Having lvl 3 in astral is not 'a little astral' like you say in your first post. Fire and air is plenty, and astral mages are very common anyway. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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2. No archers. 3. No mounting/Cavalry. 4. Only one kind of units uses shield. 5. Units don't wear helmets execpt commanders which can forge them, but none at the start. 6. Some of the units are restricted to the capitol. 7. Can't command undead units. Quote:
About the 'Arcane Changeling', the six random is limited to the elements (No death, nature or astral) and are limited to recruitable in the capitol. I think it is one of the funniest creation I came up with. You buy something and don't know which magic paths it will have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Also it's more expensive than shown in the 'old' list. best regards Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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4. Shield is slight prot/def. bonus plus prot. versus missiles. Scales are small prot. bonus, air magic in general is great against enemy missiles. Even without using storm you can cast Arrow Fend. 5. Helmet is small armor boost, scales are small armor boost. No helmets and no shields have slight effect together even over scales, but commanders unable to wield helmets would be much better restriction IMO. 6 and 7: This is the basic way! Normally the most powerful mages and/or units (often these are sacred) are restricted to capitol, and no nation except for few special ones have or should have undead commanders for free. Having no access to either Death or Blood prevents them from commanding undead and demons, but how would they get them in the first place? And pretender having Death 4 can summon Revenants (D1), give them skull staff and skullface (+D * 2) and summon Mound King to lead the units... Also, what was the nation you are replacing? C'tis, Caelum, Jotunheim, Ermor and maybe few others have special units available from the spell Reanimation. (Broken Emp.) Ermor always reanimates longdead velites and/or legionaires, Jotunheim undead giants half the time, Caelum and C'tis sometimes but I'm not sure about the exact number. Might be the same ˝ as with Jotuns. Soulless from Carrion Reanimation are affected too, atleast when playing Jotunheim. Then you have all giants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Quote:
I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
lets just wait until the first beta comes out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
after that i suggest you make a new thread where balance issues can be stated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Quote:
a "trick" to make you chose could be giving them really the 6 elemental randoms but only a base research of 1-2 . so you have to chose whether you gamble for e.g. air 4 or you want research . as soon as you find sages this is of course rather unimportant . but you can't 100% rely on sages . but just lets see how the mod turns out in the beta Version . still strong looking forward to the first beta http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif if serious imbalances become obvious they still can be changed after the beta by e.g. reducing the randoms to 4 and giving 2 base paths e.g. EW . |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Obviously there's really been no attempt to balance this mod. I don't think he's trying to make the race playable in multiplayer... obviously his units are too cheap, too powerful, and too versitile. Clearly this is a single-player race to be played for fun.
If that wasn't the intention, then I would point out that the race is terribly unbalanced. It surpases or equals several races in their "theme". It's a more powerful astral nation than Arcoscephale. It's a better flying nation than Caelum. It has better random magic than Tiern Chi S&A. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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Edit: updated the the mod banner </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i don't know if it is possible with modding but i thought of giving these dragons to the draconian race as national nation specific spells with gemcost . like the summon celestial soldiers spell from base tien chi . if that is impossible then i share izaqyos idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif i would make them then very expensive draconian units or better leaders . like the niefel jarls of jotunheim niefelheim but even more expensive : 500-1500 gold cost depending on their strengths . what slots such dragons should have then is of course a problem . because a niefel jarl has all slots and for the dragons it's not thematic that they have arm + feet slots at least . so if such a dragon costs then 1000 or 1500 gold he would need then superior stats to a jotunheim niefel jarl because consider the following scenario : the dragon costs 1500 gold but no arm + feet slots . so you fully euqip the missing slots . the jotunplayer then fully euqips 3 jotun jarls with AN - weapons . with their high strength the jotun jarls will do at least 50 damage per hit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif so my idea : give the dragons regeneration + very high hp ( 500-1000 ) . but no arm , feet and armor slots . protection between 10-25 . this way they still can be swarmed by hordes of fodder and get damaged but they will give them a good fight . the high gold costs are prohibitive . you won't have more than 1-2 dragon in the first 20 turns . 1500 gold for a nonsacred unit is 100 upkeep ! furthermore the dragons need a mr of about 20 ( like a doom horror ) . otherwise it would be too frustrating seeing them getting killed repeatedly by soul slaying rylheh/arco/pythium mages . so the dragons will really be terrible enemies but you won't see more than 1-2 in the first 20-30 turns . you could economically weaken the draconians a bit ( if it is possible by modding commands ) by not allowing them higher scales then : order 0 productivity 0 . that would be very thematic too . dragons have more important things to do then to care about economy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif finally if you plan in future a second mod : if adding a theme is possible you could add the following theme : corrupted & broken draconian empire : there an evil dracolich pretender has taken over the draconian empire . now all draconians became undead and demoniac spoiled by the evil aura of the dracolich pretender god . now the elemental dragons from base draconian nation are replaced by undead dragon/draconians , undead draco lichs and demon dragons/draconians . they focus on blood + death |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
LOTD (Land Of The Dragonkin) is meant for SP, I havn't heard or seen a MP with mod(s), correct me if I'm wrong. Though if lots of people are requesting it for multiplayer and will gladly use it for that purpose I won't hesistate to make an another Version of it or make the changes in the original.
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As Boron stated, wait with the big-balance-issue untill the first beta release or atleast to I have posted the new unit list. LOTD gonna replace Atlantis, but people can change that easely if they want to. best regards Thilock [ August 02, 2004, 07:15: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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2. Caelum can s-move 3 while the draconians can only s-move 2, also the elite army of Draconians (The temple Lord and Temple guards) can't fly. 3. Perhaps the draconians have higher random magic than T'ien C'hi, but look at it in this way: Arcane Changeling is capitol restricted, all of its magic is random so you can't build up a thoughtfull strategy and put it to use. You have to buy it (spending alot of gold) and then see where it fits. It's gambling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...and how much money would a player use on an unit they don't really know turns out? 4. It's an expensive race, means you are using alot of money to buy some few units, also expensive units have high upkeep that keep the player to have fewer units. Fewer units = Easely overun by the enemy. If the enemy have trample units like mammoth, you are really on deep water, it will maul down the expensive draconian units best regards Thilock [ August 02, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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But that's not really the main problem with the unit. It has the same primary problem as the astral priest: why is it there? It doesn't seem to fit the fire-wind theme. Acro and Spring and Autumn are practically built around hefty random-magic units, this one just seems to have been tacked on for the heck of it. I would drop the unit altogether. Overall, the Draconians seem to suffer from kitchen sink syndrone. I think the mages should perhaps be focused a little more, and I like the idea of capital-only recruitable dragons (less powerful than the pretender dragons, but still very good). Also, maybe increase the armor and resource costs of most of their units. I think a neat theme to go for would be a combination of Abyssia (slow, tough, fire-Users) and Caelum (quick, weak, air-Users). You'd end up with a medium-speed, medium-power flying race with the dragons as a really unique feature. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm i think 6 elemental random is nice : probability for 3+ in one skill : probability for 6 + probability for 5 + probability for 4 + probability for 3 = 1/4 to the power of 6 + 1/4 to the power of 5 x 3/4 + 1/4 to the power of 4 x 3/4 to the power of 2 + 1/4 to the power of 3 x 3/4 to the power of 3 = 1/4096 + 3/4096 + 9/4096 + 27/4096 = 5/512 probability total for 3+ in one path . that is by no way too powerful . you can say only ~ 1 of 100 random 6 elemental mages has a power of 3 or greater in one path . only about every 3rd of these has a power of 4 or greater in one path so about 1 of 300 of these mages has a power of 4 or greater in one path . |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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You can think like this. When you have distributed 5 randoms in the worst possible way you have a 2111 mage. So the minimum for 3+ is 25% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I can post the maths if someone is really interested. Anyways 6 random elemantals is way too powerful IMHO. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
In your analysises you have forgotten the permutations ... so for a SPECIFIC path you have
6+ 1/4 to the power of 6 ~ 0.02% 5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 % 4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 % 3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 % so it means that you have 13.1 + 3.3 + 0.4 ~ 17 % to have a mage that is at least 3 in a single path ... if you are not insterested in a specific path it is 68 % ... so more that 2 mage every 3 are at least 3+ in something with a 6 elemental random ... too strong! good play Liga Post Edited: ooops ... I have seen only now the Last post [ August 02, 2004, 15:16: Message edited by: liga ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
thnx liga & turms .
i should have looked in my statistics book before i post this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 % 4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 % 3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 % liga could you please share how you come to 6 , 15 and 20 times exactly ? |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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When I made my first thoughts on how a Draconian Temple priest would be like was a priest who can bless the troops and see beyond the matrial world (astral magic). That's the thoughts that came up when I tried to imagine how such person would be like. An old draconian with a staff, wise and noble, marked by the years. Dressed in extravegant(sp?) robe. So I fail to see your point. Alot of the nations have 2 major magic paths and a minor one that doesn't spoil their themes IMHO. Quote:
I can't see the water-sink problem. Yes the units need some adjustments. That's the beta test for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm open for critizism but I can't see your point of you... but we(Those who wants to beta test and I) just have to see how it fits before denying possible units and heroes. best regards Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Endoperez and Sindai have both made good points, and I agree with them. Apart from the gold cost, the weaknesses of this race are trivial. Their strengths are equivalent to three normal nations.
1.Flying 2.Scaly 3.Bite 4.Fire Breath 5.Fire resistance 6.Powerful mages of Fire, Air and Astral 7.Decent mage priests 8.The most flexible mage in the game, bar none. Who cares if he's capital only? 9.SC assassins. 10. Almost unlimited searching and forging opportunities. 11. Excellent province defence. Probably. Their biting ability alone could carry a nation. There aren't that many units with multiple attacks, and they are often expensive or have limitations. These guys have a secondary attack as a racial feature. They're going to chew (literally) through the opposition. And that's just one of their minor abilities. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Here is the stats for the dragons:
Any Idea how muxh the cost should be? Or some modification? They gonna be capitol restricted. Storm Dragon HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res. Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? Pyro Dragon HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? Temple Dragon HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? By the way I'm thinking on dropping the Changelings, it seems people think it's a bad Idea. What about letting a commander called 'Story Teller' replacing them. An unit with bard skills? best regards Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection.
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Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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heal is that recuperation ability ? or regeneration ? MIR = magic resistence or ? MR would be a less misleading abbreviation i think if that really should mean magic resitence:) for evaluation how high gold costs should be is the knowlegde of slots important ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif furthermore : what are their magic path(s) ? if they "only" have head and 2-3 misc slots and no magic path(s) the dragons should "only" cost about 300-400 nonsacred or 500-700 sacred . if they furthermore have : body slot : +50/100 gold cost when they are normal/sacred per magic path point : +25/50 gold this way i think balance according to the jotun niefel giants etc is a bit ensured . since dragons and giants are natural enemies and a niefel jarl has some magic abilities + all slots but "only" costs 500 sacred gold i think he is a good bench mark for the costs of dragons . P.S. : liga would you please share how you come to exactly 6/15/20 permutations ? for 5+ i think it is : 12 possible permutations : (A5E ,A5W ,A5F)x4 = 12 so with 6 randoms the chance for 3+ is probably even higher than you calculated . it is a combination of 2 probabilityformulas i think . thnx for either proving me wrong again and explaining your number of permutations or correcting it to the even higher percentages in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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okay I'll change the Mir to 17 The Elder is changed since the old list, it have 2 fire 2 air and 1 element random |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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Edit: heal is recuperation [ August 02, 2004, 19:38: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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i thought because they only have like a doom horror head + 1-2 misc slots or perhaps even only 1 misc slot but cost about 800-1000 gold at least they need a high base mr . otherwise it is just too frustrating to have a very expensive dragon for which you saved long and get it killed repeatedly e.g. by ryleh mages casting mass soul slays and the like . my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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in many fantasy games dragons are really powerful . and in dominions 3 of them are pretender gods . so if they advance to real godhood they are much more powerful than a doom horror http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and even with 20 mr for a dragon a doom horror is still nastier in dom 2 anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif in 1 on 1 combat he still kills Thilock's dragons mostly i think because he has higher def + attack than the dragons + his astral claws will kill the dragon in no time . |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
New Unit list:
C = Commander ** = Capitol restricted *** = Need a temple **** = Need laboratory Temple Servant - C *** HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12 Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50) Holy, Heal, Flying, Female General:Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 240 gold/ 5 Resources Temple Priest - C *** HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12 Abilities: 2 astral, 2 air, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350), Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal General: Oak Leader (25) Item slot: 15622 Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 450 gold/12 resources Temple Lord - C HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1 STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12 Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival, Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal General: Expert Leader (50) Item Slot: 15622 + 4096 Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20) Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12) Cost : 380 gold/35 resources Temple Guards HP: 16 PROT: 7 MORALE: 14 MR: 12 ENC: 4 AP:10 Move: 1 STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 9 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), Holy, Heal Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20) Armour: Draconic Silver Scale Mail, Round shield Cost: 70 gold/ 40 resources ------------------------- Draconian Lord - C HP: 16 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10 Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot 15622 Weapon: Draconic Spear (602), Bite (20) Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20) Cost: 150 gold/18 resources Draconian City Guards HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move : 2 STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 10 PRE: 9 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), fortress guard bonus (+2), Flying Weapon: Draconic Halbard, bite (20) Armour: Scale mail Cost: 22 gold/ 10 resources ------------------- Draconian Pyro Lord - C HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (100), Flying General: Expert Leader (50) Item Slot 15622 Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20) Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2) Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources Draconian Storm Lord - C HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Lightning Breath, Mountain Survival, Lightning res. (100), Flying General: Expert Leader (50) Item Slot 15622 Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20) Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2) Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources Pyro Draconians HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (75) Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20) Armour: Draconic Scale Mail Cost: 35 gold/ 22 resources Storm Draconians HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Shock res (75) Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20) Armour: Draconic Scale Mail Cost : 35 gold/ 22 resources -------------------------- Draconian Apprentice - C **** HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 2 STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11 Abilities: 1 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying. General: Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Draconic Dagger (9), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost : 180 gold/ 2 resources Draconian Elder - C **** HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 12 Abilities: 2 Fire, 2 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival. Fire res (75), Flying General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot: 15622 Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20) Armour: None Cost: 360 gold/ 10 resources ---------------------------- Storm Dragon - C ** HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res. Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? Pyro Dragon - C ** HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? Temple Dragon - C ** HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2 STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10 Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath Armour: None Cost : ??????? Scout and regular infantries under construction. [ August 02, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
first : looks good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i post some minor problems i see : Quote:
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1: Fire res: (75) means 75% right ? afaik there will be no possibility via items / spells then to make them 100% fire resistent . 2:450 gold cost and astral 2 : this is an invitation to many many nations to mind duel you to death . Quote:
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he only has 7 protection so nothing hard to forge but with 40 resource costs higher resource cost than any ulm infantry . or a better comparison unit : an caelum iceclad has 43 resource costs but iirc 18 protection for that . so here the high gold price is already enough for balance reasons i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Quote:
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Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
part 2 :
seems i have reached maximum letter lengths so i have to split it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Quote:
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i think again a bit too high costs . here i would suggest 30 gold / 15 resources because of stormfly ability . if my memory is right lightning resistence should either be changed to 50 or 100% to avoid resistence problems . -------------------------- Quote:
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with only 2 misc + headslot ( like the pretenderdragons ) i suggest based on that assumption : ( and because they seem to have no magic path http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) storm dragon + pyro dragon : 300 gold temple dragon : because of holy + perhaps bless effects resulting in that : 500 gold more than 500 is prohibitive by the niefel jarl as similiar unit which can be fully euquipped . all 3 dragons are units not leaders right ? p.s. : don't forget to assign every unit (especially the dragons slots + leader abilities ) because i will surely GoR some of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
finally so far your mod seems already well balanced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
if we can further improve it would the following scenario be possible ? : should be really little work for illwinter only 10-30 minutes i think : they could include your nation as a 18ths playable nation in the next patch . and other well balanced mods . especially pvks amazon empire mod comes to my mind there . so that we have 20 races in the next patch : your draconians , pvks amazons and illwinters 3rd water race which they announced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif that would be a really gorgeous idea imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
Boron --
'Heal', i.e. recuperation, is a very desirable property on a large monster such as a Dragon. |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
To Boron
Storm troops I could give the storm troops 'storm res.', 15 gold extra for the commander, 5 gold for regular and for stormdragon 100 extra? Didn't knew thee was problem with resisting abilities :/....is illwinter aware of it? Temple troops The protection is base protection, you have to add armour protection....ummmm is x-bows armor piercing? Can't remember. The temple Lord and temple guards can't fly due to religious believes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ....nah, just kidding. Well they can't fly...I just need a good story to back up why they won't/ can't fly. Also the temple Lord go an extra misc slot, that's why I made him expensive. He can't fly but uses his wings to wear an extra item. Temple priest any suggestion(s)? lowering the cost? The Dragons They got the same item slots as Pretender dragons. I'm still unsure if they should have the option to lead. If they can't lead we can cut down some of the cost. No magic paths for the dragons. Quote:
Ummm...hope I didn't missed anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ August 03, 2004, 06:49: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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N! / ( n! * ( N-n)! ) so, we have N = 6 for 5+ n = 5 and N-n = 1 so 6! / (5! * 1!) = 6 for 4+ n = 4 and N-n = 2 so 6! / (4! * 2!) = 15 for 3+ n = 3 and N-n = 3 so 6! / (3! * 3!) = 20 bye bye Liga BTW. about the mod ... it seems great! I hope to have the possibility to play it soon! |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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N! / ( n! * ( N-n)! ) so, we have N = 6 for 5+ n = 5 and N-n = 1 so 6! / (5! * 1!) = 6 for 4+ n = 4 and N-n = 2 so 6! / (4! * 2!) = 15 for 3+ n = 3 and N-n = 3 so 6! / (3! * 3!) = 20 bye bye Liga BTW. about the mod ... it seems great! I hope to have the possibility to play it soon! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok thnx . so you chose this formula http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but i am unsure if you may only chose this formula or if you have to include something else . because for 5+ of 1 path i think there should be 12 possible solutions : AAAAAW , AAAAAE , AAAAAF , WWWWWA , WWWWWE , WWWWWF , EEEEEW , EEEEEA , EEEEEF , FFFFFA , FFFFFW , FFFFFE . so 12 not 6 possible permutations right ? i am unsure which formula(s) to use to get this outcome . for 5+ it is easy to find it out because you can do the 12 permutations manually . but for 3+ etc. you need a formula . i forgot the permutations but i think you may not use your formula because this way you miss 6 possible permutations for 5+ example . but i don't find a formula for this now so please tell me if i made a fault again or when you found a new one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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Ummm...hope I didn't missed anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i am not 100% sure with the resistences but i remember if you had 50% fire resistence and wanted to cast a spell which gives +100% the ai interupted . so i think with 75% it may be a real problem . could someone plz confirm this ? with the protection i thought that is with armor values added so sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . because i have no modding expierience so far i was unfamiliar with some of your abbreviations i think i will say nothing more now but say my opinion in the beta then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif because e.g. that with the protection of 7 was a misunderstanding of me so when i can see it ingame it is much easier for me your mod seems so far very advanced do you already have a date when you plan to publish the beta ? and do you draw the unit animations yourself or is it e.g. possible to copy some from aow 2 sm or something similiar ? |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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The animation (the sprites) in first round gonna be cut, paste and recolouring of existing units to cut down the release date magnificent. best regards Thilock |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
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The animation (the sprites) in first round gonna be cut, paste and recolouring of existing units to cut down the release date magnificent. best regards Thilock </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm if you don't modify any sprites for the beta ? then you can take all your time for the sprites and the betaUsers can already give feedback on the units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Draconian Mod Under construction
It only takes a couple of minuts to cut,paste and recolouring, so I think I'll just make'em.
Here is a try on the draconian Elder: http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.c...nian_elder.jpg The body from C'tis, wings from the original Draconian, recolouring the dancers weapon and tadaaa a draconian Elder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Is it this what you had in mind how the draconian will looks like? My Idea on how to split the draconian races into diffrent colours: Draconian Mages and regular draconians: Green skin colour Temple Draconians: White Skin Colours Pyro draconians: Red Skin colour Storm draconians: Light Blue Skin colour Scout unit : Black Skin colour Or does it becomes to confusing? |
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