Gem use question.
 

I can't figure out how to make a wizard cast a spell of higher lvl.

I have an Air1 mage, I have the air Gems, and when I pop open the roster to point out his battle spells to cast , some of the spells are shaded (like Lightning Bolt).

I guess he can cast a spell above his lvl if he uses a gem for it , Correct?

But HOW EXACTLY do I do that ?

Sorry for the newb question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Gem use question.
 

he can also have his spell casting level increased through communion.

as to using gems, I believe a mage can use up to 2 gems per innate level of ability. as such, if you wish your Air-1 mage to cast an Air-2 spell (a free one, not one which itself costs any gems), just script the spell and give him a gem. well, giving him two would be safer - as gems can also be used to lower the fatigue costs of the spell.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can still select the shaded out spells. And as long as he has the gems or other path-enhancing boosts (communion etc) he'll cast them.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The amount of gems that can be used on a particular spell are the number that is required by the spell itself to cast, plus 1 gem per current level of magical skill for fatigue reduction. So an astral 8 mage casting master enslave can spend 16 gems on it. If casting solar brilliance, then he could only use 13 gems in total.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The amount of gems that can be used on a particular spell are the number that is required by the spell itself to cast, plus 1 gem per current level of magical skill for fatigue reduction. So an astral 8 mage casting master enslave can spend 16 gems on it. If casting solar brilliance, then he could only use 13 gems in total. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, the gems required by the spell count against the gems that can be used for raising skill level / reducing fatigue.

For instance - a D1 mage can not cast Summon Lammashtas by carrying two gems. Reading the manual, you would think that 1 gem would go for the spell's innate requirement, and 1 would raise the mage's level to cast it.

But no - the D1 mage carrying 2 death gems will cast a random spell, because as the manual states on page 17, "A mage may not use more gems than his skill level in the path of the gem being used."

Of course, the next sentence says "If a spell requires magic gems to be cast, the mage must pay that amount of gems in addition to the gems used to raise his skill level", which implies that the D1 mage could use 1 to raise her skilll level, in addition to the spell's requirement.

But no - a D1 mage can use 1 gem, period, and a F3 mage can use 3, period - if the spell requires 3, he can't raise the skill level or reduce the fatigue at all.

Re: Gem use question.
 

Adding further to Cainehill's reply:

Please note that the example on page 17 of the manual uses Fireball, a L2 Evocation spell that uses NO gems. Hence a L1 caster can use a single gem (his limit as a L1 caster) to boost his casting ability to L2. If Fireball needed any gems whatsoever, the L1 caster could not cast the L2 spell at all (unless via Communion).

A L2 caster could use 2 gems to boost his ability to L4, but only with zero-cost spells such as Fireball. If the L2 caster was casting a spell that normally needs 1 gem, then his limit would be only 1 extra gem (for L3 effect). And, as Cainehill points out, if a spell needed 2 gems, a L2 caster cannot apply any extra gems at all.

Re: Gem use question.
 

ah ok, thanks for clearing that up guys

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem I have with this statement is that I know that I've seen both astral 4 and astral 5 mages cast solar brilliance when sent into battle solo. It's a spell that requires 5 gems to cast, which means that it should be impossible for them to cast it. The only way that an astral 4 mage can cast solar brilliance is for him to boost his power to 5 with a single gem, spend the required five gems to cast the spell, the spend another 2 gems to bring the fatigue cost down to 167.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem I have with this statement is that I know that I've seen both astral 4 and astral 5 mages cast solar brilliance when sent into battle solo. It's a spell that requires 5 gems to cast, which means that it should be impossible for them to cast it. The only way that an astral 4 mage can cast solar brilliance is for him to boost his power to 5 with a single gem, spend the required five gems to cast the spell, the spend another 2 gems to bring the fatigue cost down to 167. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure they didn't cast one of the two spells that would effectively raise their casting level first? (Power of the Spheres or Light of the Northern Star)

Or possibly there's a bug with level 1 mages, if they should be able to use 1 gem in addition to what was required by the spell, since they can't.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought about that, but then how would you explain reducing a 500 fatigue cost down to something workable? The L4 mage needs to be L7-equivalent. The fatigue cost is a problem even for a L5 mage. There's an inconsistency between how some spells appear to be cast by certain mages, and how other spells are or aren't.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure of it. One case was with an astrologer who cast solar brilliance, then some other buff spells. In other words, he used a huge number of gems to bring his fatigue down to lower levels. The other case was two separate occasions with astral 4 and 5 starspawn. In all three occasions, the mages had ritual of returning cast on them, and they were all wearing starshine skullcaps. All of these were performed under Version 2.08, if that could be part of the reason for the differences.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can confirm the Lamashta example. A keeper of the tombs ran towards the enemies (level 9 independents) and cast fire flies in two separate tests. A sauromancer sent on the next turn cast the spell as expected.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought about that, but then how would you explain reducing a 500 fatigue cost down to something workable? The L4 mage needs to be L7-equivalent. The fatigue cost is a problem even for a L5 mage. There's an inconsistency between how some spells appear to be cast by certain mages, and how other spells are or aren't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Ain't that the truth! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'm thinking I need to set up a mini map (like 19 or so provinces), and run all nations through to where they have about everything researched and lots of gems.

That way it'd be easy to save that game, and easily create a variety of mages for any nation via empowerment, in order to test bed various spells. I agree that what Graeme describes (S4 mage being able to cast it via burning 4 gems plus the 5 required) is how _I_ interpretted the manual, and makes more sense to me besides.

But I definately found that D1 mages can't cast Lammashtas, no matter how many gems they carry, while D2 with a single gem cast it in the same circumstance. In fact - Graeme might remember it. An Onyx Amazon Priestess wandering into a huge army of his, and ... not doing much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It was scripted to cast Summon Lammashtas, had the gems, had a nice big army it was casting against and ... blip! Out comes a skeleton instead.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which game was this in? I don't remember this, as it must have been considerably more frustrating (and thus more memorable) on your side. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which game was this in? I don't remember this, as it must have been considerably more frustrating (and thus more memorable) on your side. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Quantum Mechanic's Twilight game - you probably got used to tiny, futile mosquito attacks there for a while and didn't notice my abortive Lammashta mission. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ( The almost 0 magic, no added magic path on the pretender game. )

Re: Gem use question.
 

Thanks for some excellent replies guys.

I have to bug you with a few more newbie questions though, please bear with me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1) How does one perform "communion" ?
So far I've only played Ulm and Machaka and I haven't seen any indication of communion anywhere. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong places, who knows, ... I haven't noticed this command anywhere anyway.
Something's dawning on me as I write this ..... maybe I need a Priest with a Magical skill first ? Yes ? No ?
I haven't had that yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
50 Gems for a lvl of Magic , Jeez, how can you afford that ?

2) A Global Enchantment has been cast in my current game. Something about an oak tree.
What effect does this have on my dominion and what can you do about it ?
How do you "dispel" a global enchantment ?

3) How does Flying work on the battle map?
I noticed a Flyer had 7 action points but it still crossed the entire field in one turn.So I reckon flying costs only 1 action point, or what ?

Thanks for helping out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 21, 2004, 17:35: Message edited by: Borg ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You need Communion Masters and Communion Slaves.

Communion Master can be cast by an astral mage after the necessary research is done (Thaumaturgy, IIRC), or it can be auto-cast by an astral/earth crystal matrix.

Communion Slave can be cast by an atral mage after said research, or it can be auto-cast by a slave matrix, or it can be auto-cast by Pythium's Theurg Communicants.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on magic gem availability. Don't do it often, unless you've got a hefty surplus and nobody to use it with (possible, as magic sites can give gems from outside the site's path, and blood slave harvesting can be done even by non-blood mages albeit it's inefficient).

It's saner for some than others. Blood slaves, for instance, can be gained in quantity once the machine's up and running. Death, if you have a nice surplus, can be exploited fairly readily because death allows a cheap booster (at level 2), a moderate one (at level 3), and lots of chain-summoning possible (revenants, spectres, mound fiends, demilichs).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mother Oak. +20 nature gems a turn for the caster, IIRC.
Research Enchantment 5, get a good astral mage to disepl it. Or dispel it by killing the caster. Or force a dispel by casting global after global.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flight lets you reach any point on the battlefield , unless there's a storm going on (some fliers can fly in storms, 'tho). Nice, but it's easy to die this way. They can also leave the battlefield instantaneously if forced to flee.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Communion master and slave require astral magic, which is why you won't see them with Ulm and Machaka.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Somebody has cast mother oak. This gives them +10 nature gems per turn.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for helping out so fast,
however your answer raises another question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

From your answer I conclude that there can only be cast a limited amount of global enchantments.
Maybe something like 5 or 6 (until the Global Enchantment box is full I guess)
And the oldest GE is automatically removed/dispelled from the list.

Is that how it goes ?

Man, this game is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Gem use question.
 

There can only be 5 active globals, and if another is cast (by anyone), it may replace an existing one at random.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not entirely random, as far as I've seen. It seems to be more sadorandom than truly random.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not entirely random, as far as I've seen. It seems to be more sadorandom than truly random. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's only one of the developers which knows the real truth behind these secrets... but the other developers keep him locked inside in a dark closet where his food is passed to him under the iron door.

[ July 22, 2004, 02:32: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

Only 5 global enchantments max at any one time, OK.

But if you cast another one (when there are already five out) can you be SURE your new GE will become effective and one of the older ones will be dispelled OR is there a chance your newly cast GE will not be able "to break into " the list ?

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And now he has disappeared altogether http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit: he doesn't know either, but he's the only one likely to find the answers in the code.

[ July 22, 2004, 08:56: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

I'll keep posting my questions in this thread so I don't clutter up the board with trivia questions.

So far I've "experienced" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif that you can't recruit in a besieged fortress.

Four questions :

1) do you have to keep "some presence" in a fortress to defend it or can you leave it alone (empty) and will the walls STILL have to be broken down first before the besieger can attack ?

2) does a province which holds a besieged fortress still generate gold ?

3) What other possible effects - less noticeable for the newer player - come with besieging a fortress ?

4) Apparently, when a commander has no troops under his command he's supposed to be IN garrison.
Does that mean that you can add a Commander to your Provincial Defense just by putting 1 unit under that commander's command so that he's supposed to be out on the field ?

[ July 22, 2004, 19:21: Message edited by: Borg ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you do.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, a minor amount. I have forgotten the fomula used to figure out how much. It isn't very much.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you want units to be "out in the field", that is, out in the province and not within the castle, then you must give them PATROL orders. Otherwise, they remain loafing within the keep.

Re: Gem use question.
 

Thanks Arryn.

Q : I have some Magic Arrows coming at one of my mages who's researching in a Fortress.
Does that mean there must be a spy/assassin/scout in the province - and thus time to start patrolling or hiring some (poor) province defense ? - Or is my province not necessarily infiltrated ?

Just some info :
I'm playing Machaka-default on the Aran map.
Indy's : 7
Order +3 / Heat +3 / Misfortune -1 / Magic +3
Dominion 8
Wizard's Tower.

My god is Lisa ............. the old Crone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
25pts for starters - probably the cheapest isn't she ?
Gave her 2Fire - 2Air - 2Earth
She's not fast (1/6) but then the Machaka hoplite can move only 1 province at a time as well, so nothing gives.
Makes it more important to keep her in the right strategic locations all the time as she can't jump around the world like some can.

I got a great starting locating.
The Coastal Forest in the North-Western part of the map. No marine nations , so nobody in my back (for now) and surrounded by yummie yummie farmland (mucho dineros, Machaka like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

I just finished turn 20 and have 6 provinces under my control, three Fortresses and generate 449 gold per turn. Resources are not a problem.
I've researched Alteration and Evocation both up to lvl 3 and will have finished lvl 1 of Construction next turn.
That's about ((20+40+80 *2) +20 = 300) pts of research in 20 turns , or an average of about 15 per turn. Average I guess, but I have want I want at this point. Fireball, Magma Bolts, Ironskin.
I just came across the spell Quickness ..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ...... darn ... I should have given Lisa 1W too. Oh well, I know now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm going to settle down for a turn and then turn my attention more southwards (towards the peninsula) where Marignon seems to be stuck in its starting province.
I noticed they went up to 2 provinces just recently but then back to 1 and none of the other factions seemed to go up a province that turn.
How do you explain that ?
Anyway , Marignon has a tough time because its bordering provinces include one with Heavy Cavs and others with lots of units (90-100ish)
So, I'm going to try to beat Marignon while they're still down (my bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) and because the peninsula is relatively easy to defend afterwards. If I can add that regio to my Dominion I (think) I can just "out-economy" the others.
Q : is Flames from Afar really worth the 10 Fire Gems because I really have my doubts about that one - since I only generate 1F gem per turn)
My other neighbour - located in that midwest mountain region - is Pythium. They have three provinces at the time, but their armies do not have a threatening size for me at this point , nor do they generate enough income to get me worried.
I have spies all over their territory , so I notice every move they make.
I just have a tough time cranking my Dominion up in their neighbourhood.
My Bane Blade Prophet is preaching constantly in a nearby Dom1 neutral province but can't get anything higher than that.

Pythium seems to use high Dom, is that the standard for them ?

Anyway, having a great time with a wonderfull and REALLY strategic game (ordered it Online yesterday , btw) and really anxious to try out all those other interesting strategies/units/Gods I've laid eye on so far.

btw, is there a turn limit in the demo ?

[ July 23, 2004, 10:45: Message edited by: Borg ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are being hit by the L3 Enchantment spell Seeking Arrow (pg. 103 in the manual which you don't have yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). You may or may not have a spy in the province, one isn't required to target the spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">40 turns, and magic is capped at L4.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't actually. The attacker must still break down the walls even if there are no defenders inside. This is most notieable with the dark citadel.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't actually. The attacker must still break down the walls even if there are no defenders inside. This is most notieable with the dark citadel. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've had unoccupied castles captured instantly by small numbers of enemy troops that would otherwise have taken several turns to break down the walls (I know this because that same raiding enemy group later laid siege to a neighboring castle). Which is why I no longer leave my castles undefended. Ever. Regardless of what the rules say.

Re: Gem use question.
 

Those Castles could have not been repaired from their Last siege, had bonuses to siegeing in some way or otherwise been able to batter down whatever fortress you had on their own. This is remarkably true if you've been fighting long drawn out wars on multiple fronts and your castles are in a constant state of disrepair.

Re: Gem use question.
 

Problem :

My mage has Fires from Afar in his ritual spell list, but its shaded grey.

The Mage has Fire 2 lvl and has 13 fire gems available.

From what I understood so far all I would need is 1 Fire gem to give him Fire3 skill for that spell and 10 gems for the Ritual, correct ?
Then why do I get the message "The ritual is too complex for your mage" ?

Re: Gem use question.
 

Because you can't increase your skill with gems for purposes of casting Ritual spells. You can only do that for casting battlefield spells.

You'll need to get him a fire-boosting item, empower him, or use another mage, before he'll be able to cast Fires From Afar.

PvK

P.S. Fires From Afar is worth it when you hit a province full of valuable and vulnerable flammable units (e.g. a convention of mages and high priests). It's probably not the best use of fire gems when most of the targets don't fit that description.

[ July 24, 2004, 00:20: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice try, but no. It was the first castle on my frontier that the raiders got to, a castle that had been built only a few turns before (so it was at 100% strength), and if the raiders had some bonus, it should have shown up when they got to my second castle, which held out with a single Seithkona in residence for the 2 turns it took my reserves to arrive and lift the siege. It was this experience, which defied what I'd been led to believe about castle defense, that encouraged me to always keep defenders in residence at keeps along hostile borders.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm with Arryn here - I've seen castles taken without a fight when there was no one inside. Frankly, it makes sense - if there aren't any soldiers inside, it doesn't take a month to climb over the walls.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that it doesn't occur that way in my tests, and hasn't ever occurred that way in any game I've played. Build a castle, leave the province when its finished, and have the other nation invade a turn later. You'll be breaking down the walls, but still have to exceed the defense.

What may have happened in the cases where you saw the castle fall immediately is that your opponent brought along scouts or other stealthy unit with a gate cleaver or horn of bLasting. If you were playing against Vanheim or Tuatha, then you wouldn't have seen all of their troops anyways. You don't receive precise intelligence on the forces outside of your castle, so it's fairly easy to have siegers that only come out from hiding till the walls fall, then leave to go somewhere else.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps your tests weren't exhaustive enough. Stuff manages to slip past IW's own testing. No one's perfect.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I posted before, if such was the case, the second castle would have fallen quickly too, yet it didn't. The unoccupied castle falling had nothing whatsoever to do with what was in the raiding force. Which was from Pythium IIRC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All fine and dandy except there was no Vanheim in that game, and Man was the base theme.

Why is it so hard to accept that there may be an intermittent bug? It wouldn't be the only one that this game has had. I could see people dismissing the idea out of hand if I was the only one reporting it, especially since I have no save games to prove it. But I'm not alone (thanks to Cainehill stepping forward).

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's possible, though I'm not sure what would be the best way to run more tests.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it's still possible, though unlikely, that the breaching commanders went to a different province. What type of fortress were you using?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's good then, since their lack gets rid of a whole bunch of factors.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not that hard to accept. I'm simply trying to eliminate all other factors that could be causing the problem.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I had thoughts on the matter, I'd mention them. This sort of bug is a real pain to try to track down.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Castle.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My gut feeling is that it's something real subtle buried in the code. It's what usually happens when something works right 99% of the time, but not a full 100%.

I do appreciate you and Zen pointing out all the "normal" ways to cause undefended keeps to quickly fall. heh It make me that much more desirous of maintaining some sort of garrison at keeps that might be at risk.

Re: Gem use question.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh, I'd still have troops on the outside of the castle one turn, inside it the next. This was - province and castle are owned by one side. Next turn - the province and castle are owned by the enemy.

Obviously, no message about walls being damaged or breached.

I'm not sure, but I think it was situations where there was no troops defending, period. None inside the fortification, none outside, possibly not even any PD. Army moves into the province, snatches the fortification.

I think I've even done it a time or two.