OT: Linux
 

Hi.

I've made a decision to change OS. I'm running XP but want to change to Linux. I've been sniffing around the web to pick which Linux OS I should choose and I must say I'm a bit confused. There's Mandrake, Redhat, Debian etc. etc. Any big diffrences and I've noticed some aren't avaible for free download I thought it was for free???

My spec is:
Dell P4 2.4 ghz 1024 sdram
Gf 4 ti4600 128mb

What I use my comp to:
E-mail
Surfing
Writing/reading
Dom2 ofcause http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
music
video clip
paint programs


best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

Depends, depends.

I tend to like SuSE, but that's partly because with a 56K modem and a dislike of tracking down missing dependencies myself I benefit from their "pack a kitchen sink into a DVD" approach. Plus, they actually take the time to write pretty good manuals and installers. *shrug* IIRC, they still offer single-CD 'live filesystem' ISO images for download.

Debian has a reputation for a good package / dependency system, and if you have broadband it's apparently quite capable of grabbing dependencies for you should you want to update a package or download a new one. There's a distribution called Gentoo which also reportedly has a decent packaging system, IIRC one based on BSD's 'port' tree system.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Everything has its pros and cons. In fact, I wouldnt DUMP Winxp quite yet. Linux ( as is true of Unix which it came from) is quite capable of 8 times the power on half the machine as Windows. Your ISP is probably using servers with less meory and cpu specs than your machine. If you havent experienced linux yet consider sticking on that old machine in the closet first.

As to Versions....

RedHat costs money. It has lots of toys for it. Its popular which is both a pro and a con since it means lots of answers AND lots of attacks. Since its really built around stealing the desktop business from MS its a good first choice. Its the easiest to install and get used to IMHO.

Debian is GNU and helps support the Open Source movement. If can be downloaded for free but I prefer to go ahead and order the CD's from gnu.org to make it easier. I figure if Im gonna pay Id rather help the cause than give it to a commercialized Version. Its horrible to install but its majorly easy to keep secure once its in. To be truthful I gave up and paid my local computer store to install it.

Those are the two linux Ive used. Ive also used BSD and Solaris (those are unix's). Here is a good site to go to for a comparison list.
http://www.distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major

Re: OT: Linux
 

So you want to join the linux movement? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Well, since Red Hat is effectively out of the private Desktop, these are your options, as I see them. You know, they say linux is all about options? This is where it starts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

buy SuSE: Solid, easy-to-use distrubution. You get installation support (by email) in three months for the basic package which nearly garanties that the installation will be successfull. Con: It costs some money.

download SuSE, Fedora or Mandrake Free except for the CD's, but you will need to burn them yourself or order them somewhere. You don't get installation support, but there is forums and such which can help you. I have never tried this.

Debian A hardcore distrubution. One of the best binary, free as in freedom distributions out there. Not for the easily deterred: Both the Users and the installation are really old school.

Gentoo My distrubution which fits me like a glove. Let me warn you that this distrubtiion idea of an installer is a text prompt and a guide, but this distrubution has the BEST community I have ever had the pleasure to encounter. Be aware that this is a source distrubution, which means that every program is compiled during installation. This will take a few days.

Feel free to ask anything. Or maybe go to linuxquestions
which is a great resource, too.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Thanks for the advise, I'll then go for dual boot. I have looked and read through the link you gave me and I think Mandrake will fit me well, gonna check out mandrakes homepage.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Oh...I have a question: My harddisc (80gb) is splitted into 3 partitions all in NFTS format. Do I have to erease them before installing Linux?

Another question: Should Linux have to be install before or after XP for dual boot?


best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

Last I checked, Linux could read NTFS partitions pretty well, but writing might still have been considered unstable. Haven't checked for a long time.



Generally speaking, it's fine to keep existing partitions -- although having one partition free would be a rather good idea; while you can install at least some Versions of Linux into a FAT32 filesystem, for instance, it's not too advisable. Better to keep it separate. A swap partition is also a good idea. If they take up your entire drive currently, you may want to look into partition-resizing software and whether a given distribution comes with any.
The usual bootloaders available (lilo, grub, others) are pretty good at letting you select which OS you want to boot from at start.

Re: OT: Linux
 

What I did back then was buy a new harddisk for linux... Easy but costly.

If you install XP Last you need to reactivate the boot sector, as XP can't even let a boot sector alone :-/ Otherwise there is not difference.

If you're willing to delete the entire harddisk, you could simply split it into partitions.

Re: OT: Linux
 

You could also grab a Knoppix CD to test drive a Linux environment, so you get a better feel for it before diving right in.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Linux can't really write Version 5 NTFS partitions (as used by XP). And it can't handle XP's "dynamic disks" at all. But it can still read NTFS pretty well.

Since you have three partitions on your drive already, you might be well off just converting one of those partitions to Linux. Or, you can get a whole other hard drive to run Linux on. Or run it on another computer, if you've got space and an old computer lying around.

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that Knoppix is likely to leave a real nasty impression of Linux, regardless of whether you're more a Windows or Unix person. I tried Knoppix and despised it, and I've been programming msdos/windows since about 84 and Unix since 90.

Knoppix : A bad desktop, a bad shell, and making even a fairly fast (Athlon 2600+ with 512 megs on an nForce2 mb) computer feel slow.

Ewww. The _only_ thing Knoppix does is let you avoid losing a partition (or entire drive, if things go bad) while installing a proper Linux.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Slackware Linux 10.

Slackware is fast, stable and secure. Its got a great selection of apps on the cd, your choice of gnome or kde.. no linux distrobution is as fast or stable as Slackware. Gentoo's reckless use of optimizations and poorly tested ebuilds makes it unstable. Red's unsecure, bloated... SuSE is .. commerical, and the free Versions are incomplete. Debian is ugly, crufty and messy. I've been using linux since '94, and I learned on slackware and its the best thing, because Slackware doesn't hide the OS from the user with a bunch of (usually unstable) GUI tools. When you learn slackware you can say you've learned linux, with redhat or suse your just learning redhat or suse.

Course, all of the above is just my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

--SD

Re: OT: Linux
 

Before you go deleting partitions, I'd recommend buying Partition Magic (v8.0), which allows you to resize and/or create new partitions without the hassles of M$'s FDISK. OTOH, PM will cost you more than any of linux distros you'd be buying. But PM is, IMO, a useful investment for anyone who's a serious Windows (or dual-boot) computer user (otherwise known as 'geeks').

EDIT: guess that make me a geekette ...

[ July 23, 2004, 22:20: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Linux
 

Hi, thanks for all the inputs, suggestions and input. I really appriate that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
I've choosen Mandrake 10.0 as a start and I'm at the moment downloading it and later burning it on CDs. Surely I'll try the other Versions of linux later but I think I should take one step at the time.
Here is my Idea to put up my harddisc with dual boot: C: WinXP Pro (20gb) D: Mandrake 10.0 Linux (30gb) E: Games/notes/stuff (30gb) maybe later another OS on the E: Drive like Linspire?


Isn't Slackware for the more advanced and pro linux user? I'm totally newbie when it comes to programming (execpt CMD64 basic language http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )?

How does a linux partition works vs. NTFS?


best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And untrue. E.g, Gentoo left at it's defaults is not optimized beyond the basics. (-O2 -march=..). Gentoo is stable as a rock, as long as you keep yourself to stable ebuilds. Please don't spread FUD about things of which you are obviously ignorant. Thanks.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Uh-oh. We're just done with the obligatory Nazis thread, and now it's time for the OS religious wars. Run for your lives!

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Damn! I missed the Nazis thread! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Sigh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

One of my many sig files says....

-- I guess the new social rule is that politics, religion, and operating system are not topics for polite company. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

Slackware is a little more oriented to the advanced user, but I learned on Slackware (back when it was still the #1 distribution). If you are used to working in a commandline environment then you will be OK. You don't need to know any programming to set up or use the system, but if you do have some programming ability you can do additional things that you couldn't do otherwise (but this is not specific to Slackware, it's true of all Unix).

I use Slackware myself, primarily because it is very tolerant of being altered. Many distributions get a little antsy if you start tinkering with their stuff.

As far as Linux vs. NT/XP filesystems:
Linux has its own filesystem, called ext3. (There are other filesystems around, but this is more or less the "standard" one). Windows XP uses NTFS, which is called NTFS because it was originally developed for Windows NT. Files stored in a Linux ext3 filesystem can't be accessed by Windows, and while Linux can read NTFS, it can't write to it, at least not to recent Versions. It can both read and write DOS and Windows 95/98/ME filesystems. (And there are third-party commercial programs for both Windows and Linux that allow full access to the other OS's filesystems, if you really need it).

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is ext3 standard? I'm not sure that is the case. If think SuSE use reiserfs (namesys made), and Gentoo recommends ext2, ext3 and reiserfs. The Last major filesystems in XFS (SGI made this, do not use without an UPS!) and JFS (which IBM made, and which rather sucks, I gather http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Just in case you encounter any of the others...

Re: OT: Linux
 

Just wanna say I've complete the download Mandrake 10.0...next step burning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

While I'm at it, I have some questions.

Seems there is alot of filesystems to linux, which one is "best"? and where do I find them? Or should I go with the one which comes with mandrake?

On my XP I'm using Nero to burn, is there something similiar or better to linux?

I like to mess around with PSP8 on XP and it would be cool with a paint program as good or better to linux?

I stumble on the web with a program called Wine, is it any good to run M$ application and other windows program with?


best regards
Thilock

[ July 25, 2004, 18:00: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, there are a lot of filesystems - some of them are possibly higher performance, some (reiser, I think) provide journaling, etc. If you're new to linux then you probably ought to just go with the default - there's books full of information about filesystems, and I doubt you want to go into them starting off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The more recent Versions of Wine I've heard some people speak favorably of. Note that with Wine, you generally won't be able to run any of the newer cutting edge games, because Wine will always lag somewhat behind M$ (having to play catchup).

Since I have zero interest in running M$ apps (to the point of uninstalling IE and OE), I wouldn't know about using Wine for that - from what I understand, some apps run okay under Wine, some don't. If you also have a Windoze partition, I'd think you're better off using them from Windoze, but if you get to the point where you're in linux most of the time, I can see where it'd be worthwhile to experiment to see which apps you can Wine and dine.

Re: OT: Linux
 

On writing to NTFS partitions:
Well the current Linux kernel drivers don’t support writing to NTFS well, there is a tool called Captive NTFS, which loads a windows filesystem driver and runs it in a (Wine-based, I think) emulation, and uses that to give read-write access to NT partitions.

I have used Captive briefly under Debian to fiddle with some files on an XP drive, although I can’t vouch for it beyond that.

Captive NTFS: http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/

On distributions: I personally use Debian; the latest network installation disk I downloaded had a friendly menu driven installer and very nice hardware detection. Debian is much easier to install than it used to be (in my opinion at least), but I don't know how it compares with Mandrake and friends.

On drive arrangements: Using a separate drive for Linux is a good way to go; you are much less likely to accidentally clobber your existing file system this way.

With Windows 98 I used to recommend installing your Linux drive as Primary Master and Windows as Primary Slave, and install the LILO (before GRUB was the standard) on the master boot record of the linux drive, with a hook to boot the windows system. This way you could always just disconnect the Linux drive and strap the Windows back to Master and have a system that would at least boot.

My Last attempt to do this with Windows XP however was unsuccessful, Windows has its own boot loader and didn’t seem to be happy about having its drives rearranged. So it looks like your XP C:, Linux D:, etc arrangement is a good one.

One thing to be aware of: In Linux systems drives are identified by there position on the IDE bus, rather C,D,E,etc, so your C: drive would normally be hda, (primary Master), Primary Slave would be hdb, Secondary Master would be hdc, secondary slave would be hdd. Note, that these include CD-ROMS as well, so your drives may not appear in quite the order you expect.

I have no knowledge of how Mandrake’s installer presents disk choices during installation, so the above may or may not be helpful.

You should make sure you have access to a bootable disk with the windows Recovery Console incase you clobber XP’s boot loader. If you have a real MS setup disk this should be on it, but if like me, you just have an OEM recovery disk (grr!), it will probably *not* have Recovery Console. Fortunately, you can download a setup disk on floppies from MS support. Unfortunately, it takes 6 disks.

On the dual boot configuration, I have to admit, I ended up taking the cowards way out. I have XP’s boot loader on the Primary Master (XP) drive and GRUB on a floppy disk. On the floppy disk it works fine and can boot easily into XP or Debian. One neat benefit of this arrangement (and probably others) is that XP’s hibernate to disk function works completely independent of Linux, so I can hibernate XP, restart the machine, boot Linux, work there for awhile, shut down Linux, boot into XP, and come out of Hibernate right where I left off.


Oops, this turned out to be a longer post than I intended. I was going to mention Captive and than quit. Oh well. Good Luck with Linux!

Re: OT: Linux
 

If its Linux and Windows XP then wouldnt it be easier to run the WinXP as FAT32 or even just FAT instead of NTFS?

Re: OT: Linux
 

Just wanted to mention that I am also using mandrake 10.0.

With 9.2 I had a machine where win xp pro cam preinstalled. I then used partitionmagic to make a free partition for linux. After that I simply put in the mandrake cd's - told it to use the appropriate partition when I came to that stage of the install, and after that everything just worked, and the machine was automatically set up to dual boot with windows.

YMMV of course :-)

Cheers,
Thomas

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most programs I'm using on WinXP is on Linux(writing, e-mail, some few games, music etc.), that is why I'm changing OS. But I have some old DOS games from "old" times I'll to install under Linux and that's why I stumble on Wine when I was searching on google.

But meanwhile I'm gonna run dual boot until I get familiar with Mandrake Linux...and then takes a decesion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are all very fine filesystems, so don't worry. Each have their application; just go with the default. Very likely that will be either reiserfs (also known as Reiser 3) or ext3 (the successor to ext2, the original one Linus "wrote"). Both perform metadata-journaling, which means that you don't have to run fsck (think scandisk) at boot if the system is shutdown the hard way (think brownout).

Here's two benchmarks, in case you really care. Please be aware that benchmarking is quite difficult to get right, so don't take these benchmarks as "The Truth":

Namesys
linuxgazette

Re: OT: Linux
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just wanted to add that this convenient benefit is not dependent on using a floppy to dual-boot. The one or two times I tried it with the dual-boot menu thats automatically installed by mandrake, it worked as you describe.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Some other questions:

What's the diffrent on KDE desktop, Gnome Desktop and Xfree86X ??? I know this might be a bit sensitive...I read there was a war going on between the two Groups (KDE and Gnome) But I couldn't find any information when I tried to compare them. Mandrake got all 3 desktop that are mention above...so which one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Any good games site for linux?


best regards
Thilock


Ps. By the way I found a site with 'Install mandrake 10.0 for dummies' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

XFree86 provides an implementation for the X Window System, which provides a nifty standard for networkable windows. One normally uses one of a variety of window managers for it which generally provide a consistent means for manipulating windows (minimizing them, resizing, whatever) plus usually right-click menus. mwm, twm, vtwm, tvtwm, fvwm, fvwm95, olvwm (?) etc.

KDE / Gnome go further and try to provide an entire desktop environment with stuff like a taskbar, some basic applications, perhaps a control panel for configuration, etc. Much easier for the novice to use. Plus, they provide widget libraries and APIs for easier and more consistent application GUI development.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Actually I try to avoid all 3 since I run my linux as a server only. But in general I think it goes
X-windows oldest
Gnome next oldest
KDE newest of the 3 most common desktops

Of course there are alot of pros and cons that go with that. They all have the basic needs covered so it tends to be how many toys available, how fancy the toys are, and how much support you can find for questions. But I think those fall fairly well in line with old or new desktop. Such as, newest would tend to have fancier toys but less of them and less answers.

-- If I only GNU then what I GNOME now then I would have realized what a fad fashion statement a Red Hat makes with a Tux

Re: OT: Linux
 

Adding onto what Taqwus said, in case it isn’t clear: Gnome or KDE sits on top of the XFree86 system, which provides the low level interface.

Normally the hierarchy is like this:

XFree86 -> Window Manager -> Desktop Environment -> Applications

Gnome and KDE technically lie in the “desktop environment” Category. By default with use their own window managers as well (sawfish and Kwin, respectively, I think), but can be used with other window managers that provide the right features. Also applications using the KDE and Gnome libraries (QT and gtk) will generally work whether or not you are using the corresponding desktop environment.

You can also completely skip the Desktop Environment and just use the window manager of your choice (what I do).

Gandalf:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my case this wouldn’t be easy to do: I don’t have a real XP installation disk, only a recovery disk which I think would restore the format and partitioning to factory state (I haven’t tried it). In order to get XP onto FAT I’d have juggle the live system off onto some other storage and than change the formatting, which sounds like a hassle.

guybrush threepwood: I suspected that was probably the case but hadn’t tried it.

Re: OT: Linux
 

I ran into a problem.
I've switch to Cable connection now and have a Motorola SB5100 usb modem that I can't get to work. I tried with google to find a solution but without any luck.
Help appriciated dearly!!!

best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

Nevermind, I found a solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

There's three main sites for Linux games, in my opinion:

TuxGames
The Linux Game Tome
Linuxgames

In addition, I suggest you add Thangorodrim to your bookmarks.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Hey! Thangorodrim is really awesome! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've just tried it.
Thanks for the links http://kom.jubii.dk/debathttp://foru...ies/banana.gif

best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

Yep, the Angbands are just as habit forming as Dom2 - man-months, pretender-years, of time stolen away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

wooohuu! My first setup, just manage to get 'Bit-torrent' as a application in Mozilla! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif ...nice feelings when you accomplished something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Question 1: Is it possible to "resume" the files you're downloading through bit-torrent?

Question 2: It seems that everytime I change OS my ISP asking for my username and password before I can use the web, is that normal?

Question 3: I've tried to install Dom2 in the linux OS, I follow the instruction that came in the note, but somehow I must do something wrong or the instruction is incomplete. Can someone please post a more specific way how to install Dom2 on a Linux (mandrake) OS?


with best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

The only thing that saved me was that I started using Dvorak keyBoards without numeric keypad (the Happy Hacking keyBoards) and it was too annoying to re-learn movement in Angband.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Leif, you know Angband allows you to customize your keyboard configuration, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Or you could select a QWERTY keymap for when you play... etc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Linux
 

I have that OS. If you tell me what you do and what happens I might be able to help you.
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon21.gif[/img]

Re: OT: Linux
 

I need some advise: I know how to login as root in the consol but how do I login as root while I'm using KDE?
The problem is I want to install a program in /usr/local so every Users can use this program when they are logged in, but I get the "Error[-624]: Can't make the distination directory. Please try another directory".
It seems I can't change anything through KDE desktop if it needs root login :/



best regards

Re: OT: Linux
 

Open a terminal in kde and digit

su

this command login you as root (you need to provide the passord), than make the installation and exit

good luck
Liga

Re: OT: Linux
 

I tried that, it won't let me :/

Re: OT: Linux
 

don't let you become root or make the installation ?

the directory /usr/local already exist ? it could be that it try to create an already existing direccory ?

anyway, I don't really uindestand but you could make the installation from a console, login as root (try just hit CTRl-ALT-F3 to have a console and when you have finishe CTRL-ALT-F7 to go back to the X server) and lanuch the unix_install script

I hope it could be usefull
Liga

Re: OT: Linux
 

You'll need to run the install-script on the CD from the same console window that you just called "su" in. The super-user command (su) only affects the console you call it in - not the whole desktop.

Re: OT: Linux
 

Okay, I'll give it try *crosses fingers*

Re: OT: Linux
 

The read me file says: "Install SDL by copying SDL-1.2.X.pkg.tar.gz to your hard drive. Now
double click on it to decompress it. Now double click on the
resulting SDL.pkg file and the SDL installer should start."

I copied that file on my hard-drive (more specific: /home/&lt;my user name&gt;/Games/ )... I now choose to unpack it (right click, unzip here option)...now a folder appear called SDL.pkg. But how can it install itself doing double click on the folder? I've been searching through the SDL.pkg too see if I could find a file that allowed me to install Dom2.
What am I doing wrong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif


best regards
Thilock

Re: OT: Linux
 

God damnit!!!....I realized something!!! I've been looking on the wrong installation instruction!

DAng! *Kicks himself for making an arse out of himself*

Re: OT: Linux
 

Installing Dom2 on the Linux OS - fixed
The root problem - fixed

I must say I learned alot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Now I just have to pathes Dom2, it is just an override of the old files as it don't 'self-install' itself, right?
What's the consol command for moving files? I've been searching guides and websites without any luck.

Many thanks for being so patience with a newbie Linux user I really appriciate that. Special thanks to Liga, Johan, Esben, taqwus, Sheap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

best regards
Thilock




Ps. Thanks to the guy which gave me a 'low star' star rating. Nice to know that if people are asking question they'll get a bad rating. [/sarcasm]