Stealthy Gandalf
 

Gandalf,

Did you ever do a strategy guide for stealth? I searched, but had little luck beyond a tip or two, here and there.

It has been two weeks of relatives and wildebeest, so while real life has been good, I have missed Dominions. I am now back to work and normal free time and I was thinking of trying something new, but must admit a failure of imagination with stealth. Perhaps it was the wildebeest migration, that was incredible and was beyond my imagination.

Thanks!

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

Hmmm no not really. But if anyone wants to start one I could definetly put in alot of points.

Lets see... Ive made good use of stealthy pretenders, stealthy priests, mage/assassins, low-dominion and cheap castles, chicken-pox pattern of province conquest instead of chained provinces or amoeba spread as other nations do, harrassment tactics, great advantages in being an ally since it un-does many of the "wish there was more diplomacy options" complaints. Gee I guess there is enough to make an interesting strategy guide.

Now I just have to consider if I really want to ever meet "myself" in a game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

Simple enough question, how many patrollers/how much province defense would one need to have a reasonable chance of detecting a small(Say, 40 units) force of stealthy(+0) troops in the one month they spend in a border province? Ditto for an equally sized force of stealthy(+25) sidhe, or a single tuatha SC.
I'm about to play my first real multiplayer game, and I'm worried about either going overboard with my patrollers, or letting a handful of mini-SCs devastate my hinterlands. If I Last long enough to have hinterlands.

Update: Does anyone actually use Bane Venom Charms, incidentally? I mean, it ocurred to me that a few Vanadrotts with Implementor Axes could wreak havoc with my economy, but I suppose a few scouts with BVCs could accomplish nearly as much, cheaper, without ever going into combat.

[ July 26, 2004, 02:29: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

Excellent questions, Love. I anxiously await the answer(s) myself. BTW, in my experience, PD doesn't seem to have much effect on finding stealthy folk. I routinely maintain PDs of 20 in most provinces and I rarely snag hidden units. If PD does have an effect, it must be small and I, too, would like to know what the formula is / chances are.

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

20+ PD will detect Stealth +0 probably 75% of the time. 10+ PD I would say has a 50% chance.

For Stealth +25 (or more), you have virtually no chance to find them with common PD and will have to revert to using Patrollers and quite a few, to boot.

Bane Venom Charms are excellent for causing havok and psychologically. This is one great advantage that Spy Nations (Marignon, Ulm, etc) can use, by chainusing High end stealth units to drive huge amounts of death and panic on a nation.

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

Hmm, it sounds like this is an area that is underutilized, under documented and underplayed. I guess I can go out and explore this world! It should be fun, most of the time when I try out something new, it is well known on the Boards and I feel like I am just trying someone else’s ideas. Now I can feel like I am exploring things for myself.

Gandalf, I suspect your unwillingness to share these state secrets is a role-playing extension of your stealthy forces. Hmm, who would have guessed the secrets behind that beard…

Zen, those percentages seem far too high. I have moved stealthy troops around before, against PD, and suffered few discoveries. I will now see what I can find out in this area.

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

You are right. It is one of the underplayed parts of the game in my opinion. Most of the suggestions I see for Pangaea/Man/Vanheim tend to be efforts at playing them as Ulm which is of course bound to go badly.

Actually I tried to write up a strat guide because of this thread. Its just not my style to sit and put it all down. We could discuss the different aspects, then someone here can compile it into logical reading.

What do you want first?
A) pretenders
B) nation choice
C) dominion, scales, and castles
D) mage/assassins
E) priests
F) province patterns
G) armys and attacking
H) harrassment tactics
I) ally and diplomacy benefits
J) creative equipment use

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in your miqr stands : provincial disease .
2 questions :
1. do 2 bane venom charms stack up and kill population twice as fast ?
2. is it only provincial disease or does it work like a harvester of sorrows and diseases both troops + population ?
who kills population quicker ?
-a harvester of sorrows
-a stealthy scout/spy e.g. with 1 bane venom charm
-a scout with 2 bane venom charms

problem though is that the harvester has only stealth 0 .
on the other hand it is flying so good strat movement + when you have a border with your enemy he can devastate the border areas almost without risk : if he is discovered he has always first move right ?
scripted to retreat he will always retreat than in your province right ?

Edit : is it enough to have a castle in a neighbor province or do you need to fully control the province ?
if i have 1 neighbor province but are besieged there and my harvester is ddiscovered and retreats does he retreat to the castle , or retreat to the province and sneak around there or does he have nowhere to retreat ?

[ July 27, 2004, 15:20: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You need to control the province at the time that retreats are figured out, which is after battles near the end of the turn. A spell like ghost riders, which gives the province to independents until the beginning of the next turn, can prevent him from retreating successfully.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All units can only retreat to neighbouring friendly provinces. Flying and stealth don't matter in this at all.

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He will have nowhere to retreat, and be eliminated.

He also will not get the first tactical move when discovered. Sneaking units which are discovered are treated as attacking the province, so the defenders get the first move. If your enemy has something that can get to you on the first turn, then you have to survive that.

A Harvester of Sorrows though is a pretty tough cookie and can often wipe out or scare away patrollers by himself...

PvK

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have two vague ideas of what you are doing. I would appreciate if you commented these and told if you (or why you wouldn't) do things like this.

A stealthy nation often goes out of its dominion, so I quess one could take bad scales and low dominion and fight as far away from it as possible. This would make detection of the nationn's citadel less likely, but the citadel wouldn't be very good as the bad dominion would affect it.

It might be possible to take scales that benefit castles, like production and order, and build temples in the same provinces that one builds his castles. The player would then have strong spots of dominion all around the map, each one would have dominion bonuses for armies. If going this route, taking drain and researching in areas without temples near could be a possibility. To be able to use this one would ned a cheap castle, and cheap temples. I think Pangaea could pull it off.


So, is either of these strategies workable?

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">a small problem i see is that provinces with high enemy dominion create unrest .
i think as alexi said loot is better . that should drive your enemy insane even http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
so you still take good scales , generate much wealth in your corelands and try to destroy the money/blood economy of your opponents . so even if they can stop your for some time they will be very weakened and only have the gem income .
especially evil against the basic ulm like nations and in the beginning of the game .

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

Ive tried both. But I like low dominion and cheap castles. Even if its only for the roleplaying. To me part of the stealth strategy is making them wonder where you really are. On large maps its easier. Yes it can allow taking some very damaging scales if you want to play maximum bless, which interestingly enough each of the sneak-army nations arent setup too badly to do. Or good scales with low push so that your candle-power doesnt give away every location you own.

It can throw quite a bend into the plans of the chess-strategist player. He cant plan your destruction, he has to luck into it. He cant put off adding defences to provinces he takes because he has no idea if you are right there next to it and about to spring. you play havok with supply lines. Force all of his mages to travel with armies. He isnt sure where your main castle is. He isnt sure what will take you out. He is never sure how beaten or not beaten you are. If an ally gives you a province on his backside then you can always bounce back.

Set yourself up to be ready to snatch an advantage the moment it shows, anywhere, anytime. If you feel like the formula strategists always out play you because you play randomly watching for sudden openings better than you do planning ahead, try stealth.

[ July 28, 2004, 13:53: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Stealthy Gandalf
 

or what about the opposite.. taking restless worshipers with high dominion and droping castles strategically in the heart of enemy's empires. add alot of looting to cripple their economies, and maybe some disease, and even hit and run tactics if your castle(s) aren't under seige by very pissed off opponent(s). After a short while your army would come in a take out the much weakened empire.

I mean, in modern warfare, you always cripple a nation's economy first, then you cripple their infrastructure, all the while you're spreading propaganda throughout their population, and then finally you send in your troops. Anyone trying to take out an opponent without going through those steps is exerting alot more effort for the same prize.

Unfortunatly, the only way I can think of to counter this would be to build castles on every province to protect yourself (which from reading older threads, not everyone is fond of). that or have emergency response forces that are fast enough to catch a raiding intruder (ie SC with teleport). I'm sure there are other ways to counter this too...