Lab Secrets
 

Fact : we all play in our own distinctive way.
But what is that way ?
How different or how similar do we play compared to the others ?

Let's focus on Research Management as this is obviously one of the more important aspects of the game.

- Is there a certain "Research Rate" that you like to maintain throughout the game ? How many RP's are you gunning for per turn ?

- Do you sometimes interrupt that research ? For shorter or longer periods ? Or do you maintain research at all times ?

- When you forge items. Do you appoint one or several mages to forge continually or do you sometimes forge 4, 5, 6 items at the same time - so you can fully equip one of your Commanders right away ?

- Is there maybe a certain Research level where you stop researching and go on the offensive, because you can cast all the spells you're looking for ?

- Do you have special tips on research which you think other people haven't thought about or might find very usefull ?

In other words, I'd really like to hear how you approach and manage Research.

Thanks very much.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

I tend to play nations with bad researchers (jotunheim is my favorite) so sages are a must. I am content to fall behind in research rather then spend heavily for mages. Somewhere I'll find something cheaper be it sages or witches or jade priestesses and stay close. I firmly believe a SC needs his toys so my Neifel jarl expects his wraith sword,pend of anti-magic,luck pendant,flying shoes and best armor i can afford gemwise waiting for him in the vault . As such I have a dedicted forging crew. Alas I sorely miss pre-nerf armor of the elements.

frosted flake

Re: Lab Secrets
 

when i "stop or lower" researching depends on the enemy too if i need my mages in combat cause otherwise i would lose i stop researching .
when i have d3 available i try to replace my researchers later with spectres .
i like magic 3 scale .
question according to skull mentors :
they increase research by 9 points . do they got a bonus through magic scale 3 as well ?
and when using 2 you get +18 rp right ?

i myself love magic 3 and so i prefer spectres than using the skull mentors. iirc spectres have 7 rp but with magic 3 10 and i think magic 3 doesn't add rp's to research items so you get 1 more per spectre for the same 10 gold cost .
and i prefer stockpiling my clams on the spectres http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

is there somewhere a list which are most cost effective researchers ?

Re: Lab Secrets
 

In the start I usually research lvl 2 Alteration and 2 Evocation before I'm attacking the first province. It take around 5 turns and meanwhile I'm building up some nice spell casters and units. The alteration to buff my casters and evocation to do some damage.

When I'm forging Items I usually take most of my spell casters home and starts massive Item building, but I share the items among my commanders where it's needed.

Most of the times I've 4 low spell casters researching all the time, so I don't get behind the other nations.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Quotin Boron

"Question according to skull mentors :
they increase research by 9 points . do they got a bonus through magic scale 3 as well ?
and when using 2 you get +18 rp right ?"

No and No. A 5 rp wizard with a skull mentor or 2 (+9) is 17 in magic 3.

You could use a fire lantern if you had death & fire - Any races?


"i myself love magic 3 and so i prefer spectres than using the skull mentors. iirc spectres have 7 rp but with magic 3 10 and i think magic 3 doesn't add rp's to research items so you get 1 more per spectre for the same 10 gold cost .
and i prefer stockpiling my clams on the spectres http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif "

That is an Ermor oddity I like using 10 death gems for Jotunheim for + 9 research instead of 250 gold for +7
Or 3 fire gems w/ Ulm for +6 (which is 30 cash anyway)

Pickles


Pickles

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Due to the fact that I've played Total War games A LOT, research seems secondary to me. However, I do try to get a good amount of research done.

I usually aim for a level in construction first, but then my research will vary according to my situation. If I'm going astral, I'll usually aim for stellar focus/arcane nexus/wish (which boosts my pretenders magic capabilities). I rarely use mages in battle (I believe in a large amount of troops, and mages usually have poor Leadership), so I keep them researching. If I can get my hands on a good Earth mage, he/she becomes my official armorer for my veteran/elite commanders.

Basically, I prefer ritual/summoning spells over battlefield spells. However, I find that my tactics change with the more experience I get in Dominions II (I'm still learning many things).

Edit: Erased "Overall Style" section

[ July 25, 2004, 23:05: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No - the research items add their value to the researcher. The magic scale also adds to the researcher separately. A research 4 mage with a skull mentor in magic 3 scale gets 4+9+3 = 16.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well - those Skull Mentors only cost 7 death gems if you're using a Dwarven Hammer; it's much harder to find a reduction on the cost of summoning spectres.

Also, Skull Mentors tend to be available to most nations long before spectres (Const 4 vice Conj 6). The main thing about spectres is that they give random magic, very important for a nation that doesn't have it.

And most nations have a hard time taking Magic 3 - AE and SG Ermor, and CW Pangaea can do it easily, but few others. Then again - I don't think the spectre is mindless, so it can gain experience and get better at researching.

As far as the list of researchers - there's a web site that will show you the most efficient recruitable researchers for various conditions (drain/magic scale and # of turns). The url is Researchers/GP

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This can vary from situation to situation, as can everything, but generally speaking, I find that I rarely have a dwarven hammer early in the game, which is when I would use research bonus items, if I was going to use them.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tend to use magic 2 or magic 3 unless I am trying out a specific strategy that requires a lot of points elsewhere. It's not hard at all to get Magic 3 ! For me, personally, most of my nations start with order+3, luck-2, magic+3 before I even start fiddling with the other points.

- Kel

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm? What game are you talking about Cain? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Surely it's not Dom2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Magic 3 is one of the best MP scales in Dom2 in general, right after the Order 3, and even more important than Order for some nations. And taking Magic 3 is no more difficlut than taking one other scale 3. It is just 120 points, no more and no less. And in most situations it well worth it.

Obviosly any nation/theme can afford it, even those with tough requirement settings. Unless of course you determined to get one or two level 9 blesses, or damp all your points in Uber-VQ or something. But that's your choice.


As far as the list of researchers - there's a web site that will show you the most efficient recruitable researchers for various conditions (drain/magic scale and # of turns). The url is Researchers/GP [/QB][/quote]

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm? What game are you talking about Cain? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Surely it's not Dom2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Magic 3 is one of the best MP scales in Dom2 in general, right after the Order 3, and even more important than Order for some nations. And taking Magic 3 is no more difficlut than taking one other scale 3. It is just 120 points, no more and no less. And in most situations it well worth it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm referring to the game where many nations and themes really require high order and sometimes high productivity as well. The game where the Magic scale has diminishing returns. You know - the ones where many nations don't have 40-120 free points from the temperature scale. The one where you got your butt handed to you by Cohen in a tournament... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Given how bad Cohen is, maybe your belief in Magic-3 helps to explain this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This can vary from situation to situation, as can everything, but generally speaking, I find that I rarely have a dwarven hammer early in the game, which is when I would use research bonus items, if I was going to use them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Really? One of the first earth items I try to forge is that dwarven hammer - the sooner you get one, the more benefit you can get out of it.

While the research items ... I'm past turn 40 in one game, and cranking out one to three Skull Mentors a turn, depending on how many researchers I'm adding that turn. Admittedly I've been much better off if I had started doing so earlier, but I'd always had a dim view of the research items before this game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tend to use magic 2 or magic 3 unless I am trying out a specific strategy that requires a lot of points elsewhere. It's not hard at all to get Magic 3 ! For me, personally, most of my nations start with order+3, luck-2, magic+3 before I even start fiddling with the other points.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like Magic 1 myself, and hate taking the high order, high Misfortune - like the old VQs, it just seems cheesy, even if it is a no-brainer with the Order/Luck scales being tied the screwed up way they are.

And I also tend to spend a lot of points on dominion (but then doesn't everyone) and usually 60-100 on a castle. (The 60 pointer is kind of my default, unless I'm trying something experimental, or am short / surplus points at the end.)

Oh, and almost always one additional magic path on a pretender, even if it hurts, and 80 points for free beer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm? What game are you talking about Cain? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Surely it's not Dom2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Magic 3 is one of the best MP scales in Dom2 in general, right after the Order 3, and even more important than Order for some nations. And taking Magic 3 is no more difficlut than taking one other scale 3. It is just 120 points, no more and no less. And in most situations it well worth it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm referring to the game where many nations and themes really require high order and sometimes high productivity as well. The game where the Magic scale has diminishing returns. You know - the ones where many nations don't have 40-120 free points from the temperature scale. The one where you got your butt handed to you by Cohen in a tournament... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Given how bad Cohen is, maybe your belief in Magic-3 helps to explain this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL. You don't need free point from temperature scales to get magic 3 Cain. Like I said, it's just 120 points. As for your weak attempt to flame - FYI I haven't lost a single game during Last 3 monthes or so, other than that 6AM tournament blitz that I was stupid enough to participate in. On the opposite, I have won all games that I've particiapted in this time period, and in the wining positions for those that are still being played. I strongly doubt you can say so about yourself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And yes, I take Magic 3 in every 2 out of 3 games in average I would say, depending what race/settings I am playing.


Anyway, the point is that magic is a great scale to take, since reseach is bread and butter of Dominions, no matter what you think about it. It is especially so for for medium and long games, which are often won and lost by reseach. I would say in general it is number two scale after the Order, although for some nations/themes with great national reseachers it is less importent, than for others.

[ July 26, 2004, 04:38: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you check out the following link: researcher cost, you'll find that Jotunheim is not a nation with "bad researchers". Not the best, not the worst. As player of Jotuns (see my AAR), I must take exception to your characterization. Hmmph! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't have a specific research rate, but I tend to *constantly* buy mages - as many as I can afford/produce. (In my Last Arco game, on a huge, rich map, at the end game, I had 30+ astrologers, 80+ mystics, 50+ sages, plus numerous summoned mages (ie: lamia queens, lichs, ether lords, elemental kings/queens, Ivy kings, tartarian titans, etc). That was a bit insane.)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Almost all the mages I recruit are used in my "magic pool", where they research unless I need them for something else. (I don't tend to use mages in combat until late game. Unless I'm really pressing to get to a specific research level, I usually freely divert mages from research to site searching by spell, item forging, or ritual spells. Since I'm mostly gem-limited in these activities throughout the game*, there's usually plenty of researchers still available.

* ie: early game, I have few mages, but also few gems to use for rituals and forging, while late game, I have many gems, but many mages to use.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unless a mage has a special path combo that is need to cast or forge something, I don't dedicate them to forging or rituals. If I have the gems to do it and the need for fast results, I'd definitely pull as many mages onto forging duty as I needed to get the items built quickly. (Unless at the same time I had a special strategy that needed a certain amount of research completed ASAP, but that's not common for me)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope - I want access to those top level spells. Actually, if I wasn't playing a blood-using nation, I'll probably not bother with blood research.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a special tip or "secret", but my thoughts on mage recruiting: Because I want my mages to be multi-purpose, I partly buy mages based on their research efficiency (ie: sages), and partly based on their random path spread, trying to get good/diverse paths. For example, Arco mystics have 3 random elemental picks. I buy lots of mystics, hoping for mystics with those picks slotted into only 1 or 2 paths. That gives me more chances of having mages to forge whatever items I need or be boostable to cast the ritual I want to do, etc. If I was playing a less magically-diverse race, I'd still try to get as much spread as I could, but then probably focus on efficiency.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Thanks LintMan, that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Gimme some more gems please folks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 26, 2004, 07:34: Message edited by: Borg ]

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm. All right, here are some tips to help you to get started:


In MP try to build castles around your main reseach centers. If you can't and some of your mages are reseaching in the field labs, position them way back on the battlefield and script your mages to retreat, perhaps after casting few spells. Do the same for your bloodgathering mages. This way your reseachers/bloodhunters will not be destroyed by the random event, or by the cunning enemy. Keep in mind though, that if enemy is determined to wipe out your mages, he may attack all provinces abjustent to your laboratiry, in this case retreat is not a good option.

Never keep all your reseachers in one center since if it'll fall to the enemy your future reseach will be severely crippled. The best way is to allocate several reseach centers it in the back, far from potential frontlines, even if you had to lose 1 turn of reseach due to flying yor mages in the back. (they can pass flying boots to each other). Later on in MP game, protect your reseach centers with Dome spells. Also this way if the things get very hot, you can quickly shift some of your mages from reseach duty to support your troops in the field, using the closest reseach center to your front.

If your lab in the castle is about to fall to the enemy, always try to destroy it. This way not only you'll force your enemy to spend 200gp and occupy 1 mage to rebuild it, but also it'll deny enemy instant transfer of items/gems to help them in future conquest. But don't wait until the Last moment, if you've decided to burn your lab, do it at least 1 turn before the enemy smash your gates, or you'll not have time to do it since "destroying lab" order happens after the battle phase.

If you choose magic>0, as you may very well do, as I said in previous Posts, use the labs which do not have the best magic scale rating yet (those in newly conquered lands, or near strong enemy dominion, etc.) for summons/fogring/spellsearching, and those that have your maximium dominion magic spell for pure reseach.

Burning laterns are best reseach enhancing items in the game, from cost/benefit ratio. Skull mentors are also very good. Owl suck unless you are swiming in airgems and don't have anything else to do with them.


"TAB" button is your friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


All right, hope this will help you in the begining. Good luck!

Re: Lab Secrets
 

I should have said as Neifelheim , jotun has terrible reseachers..250 au for 7 is as bad as it gets


frosted flake

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm rather partial to Seithkona, and in general I prefer the Utgard theme to Neifel. The Neifel giants may kick butt, but they are too expensive for my taste, and the Neifel theme does leave me feeling magically-impaired. If I need a mini-SC chassis, I'd much rather build it on a Bane Lord or a Firbolg playing the Utgard theme than a Neifel giant, freeing up my cash to buy magic researchers. If I played Neifel, my money would be tied up in either cost-ineffective mages or in pricey mini-SCs.

But this strays afar from the thread's topic, so I'll stop discussing the Joys of Jotun<font size=1>(TM)</font> now.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Quote:

Really? One of the first earth items I try to forge is that dwarven hammer - the sooner you get one, the more benefit you can get out of it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Of course...it's just harder to forge. I can forge research items with 3 different paths and 2 of them require only 1 in a path. In contrast to the hammer that requires an E3 mage. Obviously not a problem with a couple of races but with most races, it's going to take you a while, plus other items (like earth boots) to get to a hammer.

In addition to that, and this is just me, I tend to only forge research items if I am intending a focused rush to a certain research level. In which case, I want the research asap.

It's not that I don't forge a hammer at earliest convenience, it's just that I only really find use for the research items (ok, not so much the lantern) in the extreme early game and hammers just aren't as convenient (given that you can make research items with 3 different paths and lower path requirements to boot).

I suppose that if you were looking at an end game rush strategy (clamming/wishing being the only semi famous one I can think of), this might not be true (I don't know how the numbers on how clams vs. research works out the best). Then again, I am only speaking for me and I have never started a game with a strategy to clam anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Lab Secrets
 

i'm fairly new, but i've been reading alot of threads on this forum going back a few months, and everyone talks of gathering lots of clams to produce astral gems. But they only produce one every 4 turns, and they cost 10 water gems. After 20 turns you've only made 5 gems per clam. How can that be worth it!? How many clams are you guys making (and are water gems really so worthless that its better to make clams with them!?)

Oh, and instead of spending 20 earth gems on a dwarven hammer, why not wait a bit and use all those researchers to get the Forge of the Ancients early in the game.. that gives 50% reduction in gem use plus 1 extra in every path for forging (correct?).. (with enough researchers, you could get it well before turn 20 and still gain several levels in other paths earlier on)

Re: Lab Secrets
 

they produce a gem a turn alexi.

and hammers stack w/ FotA - which runs the risk of being quickly dispelled anyways.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

"yeah the Niefel giants unfortunately have no recuperation and will sooner or later get an affliction if used early because you can't equip them too good so early ."

Niefel giants can never be equipped but I find that if you crank them out steadily you get a killer critical mass that can eat any indep and seems to never take any damage. Some of the older ones pick up afflictions. Critical mass is 7 with W9 blessing more without.

Niefel Jarls are still a mystery to me but they are SC you buy with cash not gems which must mean something? Regeneration items would be nice on them.

Pickles

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Niefel Jarls have statistics and abilities that make them only slightly weaker than Ice Devils. Their major weaknesses are their 50% fire weakness, and their base encumbrance of 4. Put a wraith sword on them, and they can deal with most living armies.

What they tend to have the most trouble with are nations that can produce large numbers of lifeless units and summons. C'Tis, Ermor, and the air nations can be much more difficult for them to deal with.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

My "standard" neifel jarl has +2hit and +2 defense bless. After quickness and bless and breath of winter 1 takes almost any province assuming good armor,luck pendant,wraih sword and flying booties. I have taken 80 hvy inf and hvy cav with 2 easily. With bless they are as good as ice devils, which i recruit all of them asap also) and by late game what else is there to spend money on? A "free" - no gem to recruit - Sc every turn ..sweet! If clamming is going well I have been know to spend 50 astral pearls and empower them to cast ethereal on themselves but thats fun not a good use of gems ( I like my sandbox). A giant with ethereal weapon hits for bonecrushing damage kinda sweet
frosted flake

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm rather partial to Seithkona, and in general I prefer the Utgard theme to Neifel. The Neifel giants may kick butt, but they are too expensive for my taste, and the Neifel theme does leave me feeling magically-impaired. If I need a mini-SC chassis, I'd much rather build it on a Bane Lord or a Firbolg playing the Utgard theme than a Neifel giant, freeing up my cash to buy magic researchers. If I played Neifel, my money would be tied up in either cost-ineffective mages or in pricey mini-SCs.

But this strays afar from the thread's topic, so I'll stop discussing the Joys of Jotun<font size=1>(TM)</font> now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah the Niefel giants unfortunately have no recuperation and will sooner or later get an affliction if used early because you can't equip them too good so early .

thnx for the rp graph caine and storm and arryn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Astral is not recommended for Mind Duel, but it's your sandbox...

If you are for big amounts of armor-negating damage without possiblity to use astral SCs, like fighting versus a 9S sphinx, give your Niefel Jarl Constr. 6 item Gate Cleaver. 29 points of an. damage, plus the strength... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

"My "standard" neifel jarl has +2hit and +2 defense bless. "

I have +4 defence quickness & reinvigoration 3
(w9 e6)


"After quickness and bless and breath of winter 1 takes almost any province"

Creeping is not a big issue, it is players I am worried about (and tritons too to be fair)


"assuming good armor..."


What is good armour? I found the black plate too heavy so I guess air armour is good.

I was tempted to use robe of "etherealness" - which leaves low prot but good defence & enc.

Or what - elements/red dragon scale?

Shroud of the battle saint (but they are sacred -this sounds funny on Ice devils)

I have not quite got them figured out yet.

Pickles

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">how are the odds of hitting ? 29 AN dam sound really cool but it has att / def -1 .
wraith sword has att +2 def +3 .
a bane lord has basic attack / def 14 / 14
hm a niefel jarl has att 12 def 16 .
hm with water 9 bless you have than the following : i don't take other items than weapons and blessing into considering because a niefel jarl has the same slots as a bane lord so they can both have the same .
bane lord att of 16 vs initial defense of 19 via water bless for the niefels .
other way round att 11 vs 17 def .

the niefel jarl though can cast quickness + gets quickness from bless that stacks up to 150% quickness or ?
so 2,5 attacks per turn .

if the niefel jarl though gets hit first and fatigues his att / def skill decreases .

now scenario 2 : niefel jarl vs wraith lord :
question first : how is soul vortex calculated ? which att / def values does it have because a wraith lord can cast it without buffing .

further the wraith lord has 16/16 att def .
so with same equipment as before :
bane lord vs niefel : 18 att vs 19 def .
niefel vs bane lord : 11 att vs 19 def .

now the niefel has very poor odds of hitting the bane lord . further the wraith lord has a good chance to make a life drain hit in the first combat round already either via soul vortex or via his 1 / 2 combat attacks more likely 2 with boots of quickness .
this further reduces the att value of the niefel and so he has almost no chance to hit the wraith lord .

i didn't like jotun very much but i got an idea now and will try it out :
instead of earth or nature blessing w9 f10 bless : +5 attack that should give wohoo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
a duskdagger will work wonders furthermore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
+ give room for a shied .
now a niefel jarl has 19 attack vs 19 def of the wraith lord .
as shields following seem very cheap + cool to me :
lucky coin or eye shield
so wraith lord has 18 att vs 23 def .

what do you think ? could this be worth trying out ?
my main concern is though :
how do you deal with afflictions ?
jotun niefels seem to cry after GoH .
in order to get f10w9 you have to take very lousy scales though and you have bad researchers . con 6 seems most urgent early goal . goh is very expensive . costs :
much luck : every 16th gygia will get nature 3 .
if you get such one : 10 gems for thistle mace .
then 40 gems for thorn staff .
goh 40 additional costs .

so minimum gem costs 90 nature gems .
with goh i guess niefel jarls are really frightening sc's and because they only cost money very great .
but how do you get 90+ nature gems as quick as possible and what do you do against dispelling ?

another "solution" might be the chalice : your special hag hero has n2s2 so only 1 nature needed to forge that . but not easy to achieve either . + your niefels need to be all in the same province to get healed from the chalice .

third but not good solution in my eyes : summoning faery queens . 1 faery queen needs unfortunately 90+ death gems to summon as with GoH .

a final question : do you have a mr-resistance throw against the eye shield or not ?
so do you lose an eye every time you hit the wearer or not ?
if you use 2 eye shields do you get immediately blind or do they not stack ?

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Soul vortex is a spell. There's no attack or defense involved.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't really need to. Unless it's feeblemind, blindness, or a chest wound they won't have that much effect.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The eye shield causes damage, not a magical effect.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx for the answers graeme but i am a bit confused now :
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">so how many targets are then chosen for the soul vortex effect each round ?
is it then something like randomly select 1-5 targets in soul vortex range each one randomly suffers e.g. 1-10 hp drained x fatigue added for y drained life ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">almost all afflictions hurt you . losing an arm e.g. means armslot item lost + -2 attack or something like that .
there are plenty of these afflictions .
all greatly decrease your odds to hit other sc's so they are a problem right ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">really ? in zens miqr stands : hit by opponent : affliction , lost an eye
an affliction is no damage in my definition .
as far as i would understand it is that you get the affliction lost an eye not more not less . nowhere there is a description about damage .

more questions to eyeshield : so will the eyeshield when you are hit always give the hitter the lost an eye affliction ?
or is there a saving roll ?
furthermore again : can you stack 2 eyeshields and once you are hit 1 time the hitter will be instant blind ? or does he still need to make 2 hits .

furthermore what is hit by opponent :
example 1 : my opponent wins his attackthrow vs my defensethrow .
but my protection is high enough that i suffer no hploss .
is that a hit ?
or is a hit only example 2 :
attackthrow won vs defensethrow and damagethrow greater protectionthrow , result : real hp loss suffered .

thnx for your answers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

I empower astral for humor once in a while maybe 1-2 out of 20+ neifel jarls i hope to have by turn 30. I always have +2 hit and +2 defense bless, its cheap and very effective . While a neifel might lose a one on one to a bane lord, the neifel has better damage and way more useful overall effect with his priest/magic abiliteis. The neifel gets quickness by acsting it the bane lord needs boots which means he goes w/o quickness (bad) or he loses the flying booties that make my paratrooper neifels so much fun.The bane lord being undead is subject to alot of crap that the neifel isnt, also nothing is stopping you from having both. Good armor used to mean elemental armor but since nerf I am not sure. Plate is fine as long as the wraith sword is equipped but I tend to favor jade or hydra skin. I'll use chainmail of displacement if i get the chance (seldom). Nothing is more amusing than a ethereal neifel casting ethereal weapon.

frosted flake

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, they all hurt, technically, but no, they don't all "greatly" affect you. A Niefel Jarl going from 25 str to 21 str because he has the weakened affliction (for example) is a minor effect. Even had I access to healing, I would not pull him off the lines to heal him, unless I really had nothing to do with him. If he lost both eyes, otoh, he would be practically useless with 0 atk.

Losing an arm is in that moderate area, depending on what you are fighting (and if you need a charc shield real bad)...but a Niefel with a blood thorn, for example, could still be quite formidable against many opponents.

- Kel

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To answer the original questions:

I don't focus on research rate goals. If graphs are on, though, I do keep an eye on others' progress, and sometimes respond to that, one way or another.

I do interrupt research to do things. The point of research is to be able to do things, unless the victory conditions are set to research, which I've never played.

Again with forging, I usually forge things for a reason, and look at what mages can forge what, frequently shuffling around who does what. Rarely do I have people continually forging the same things unless I'm Ulm or hit on something I have a reason to mass-produce. Sometimes I do try to make a full kit for a commander all at once.

Yes, I do sometimes stop researching because I have learned the magic I need to do something, and want to use the mages who were researching, to go do it.

I rarely go all-out for research, and I see there are some people who do and are better at maximizing it than I am. However I do keep my mages busy with other tasks, and it depends which nation I am leading, what's going on, and what I'm trying to do.

Often, particularly as Ulm, I will have cheapo mages doing research (e.g. Revenants), loaded with items. Rule of thumb is that if my mages have something effective they can do, that can't be done by the army or someone else, they're better doing that than just researching. A counterpoint is that sometimes if everyone researches, they can develop some very useful new tricks.

PvK

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It uses the same area of effect selection that all aura type effects use. Every unit in an affected square takes damage, but I am not sure or how large the area of effect is, nor how much damage is caused.

My guess is that it causes somewhere around 1 armor negating damage in the 12 or so squares that are closest to the unit with soul vortex.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thes they hurt you, but they don't really affect your combat ability that much.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like I stated the first time, the eyeshield will only cause an affliction if the damage it applies to the unit gets through the protection of the unit. There is no MR roll involved at all, and you are not guaranteed to cause eye loss on any particular hit.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It refers to a hit, regardless of whether the unit penetrates the protection of the victim.

[ July 27, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Regarding Niefels and bane lords, I might note that they benefit differently from the same equipment in certain cases -- notably, bane lords ignore encumberance and rarely have much need for reinvigoration or life-draining items and can reasonably use much heavier armor. A bane lord has less reason to limit itself to a blood thorn or wraith sword, for instance.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm but a bane lord has 42 hp so if not hit e.g. by a niefel jarl with an an weapon he will not get killed by 1 hit or ?
so with the lifedrain weapon he has good chances to get to full hp again or ?

a wraith lord can naturally cast soul vortex so there is really little need for a life drain weapon i would agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
but for the bane lord i think it is in general quite useful + very cheap .

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, a bane lord will be killed by a sngle hit from a gate cleaver wielded by a niefel jarl. That's 56 points of armor negating damage.

As a friendly aside, I'm thinking that English might be your second language. When asking a question you don't need to add the word "or" at the end. It would be more correct to say "So with the lifedrain weapon he has good chances to get to full hp again?"

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah you guessed right . thnx for that tip .
will be hard to get rid off though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .
because in german to pronounce a question you always use the word "oder" for which or is the correct english translation .
that's another problem with german :
our language is quite long most 1 : 1 translated books from english to german or the other way round the german book has about 50% more pages but in both books stands EXACTLY the same .

as you may have noticed my Posts are often very long ^^ . that's partially because we germans use more words and make longer sentences and partially because i tend to ramble sometimes much more than the "average" german .

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">btw is here a good statistician who could make a small chart for me where some hitting odd percentages are shown ?

like hitting chance vs
-20 higher
-19 higher
....
-20 lower defensive rating .

would be really helpful i think .
if something like this already exists somewhere here on the Boards give me a link plz .

cause i wanna e.g. figure out if i could "swarm" niefel jarls then with an undead horde or something similiar and how my odds are then .
my second main implementation will be then to see what it really means for hitting chances in sc vs sc / semi-sc's if one has a e.g. 2 lower attack rating than his opponents defense rating .

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yikes! That's really bad then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Saber Cherry has already done something along the lines of what you seek: Dominions II Combat Simulator v41

It's not a chart of to-hit chances, but a chart of what unit will statistically defeat another unit.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yikes! That's really bad then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah i guess i could be a good politician http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
at least i seem to naturally have the ability to beat about the bush for hours or declare someone a quite simple thing so extensive that he even forgets what the original question was and is rather sillier after that than cleverer .
sometimes it can be a good thing :
i was able to fool many of my teachers that way . most gave me high "oral" marks in the comprehensive grammar school. ( perhaps that's a special german thing again and not so common in the usa and elsewhere dunno if that translation is good . but here in germany these oral marks counted 1/3 in the reference http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) .

or in diablo 2 when trading that worked well too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
loved buying a storm shield for 1 soj and trading it away 10 minutes after for 1 soj + an item worth 0,5-0,75 soj .
then for the soj a new storm shield and for the 0,75 item an additional soj and so on and so on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
unfortunately i started playing lod too late so the insane dupes came before i was "soj-rich" enough to afford the real gems like pre 1.08 arcaines valour and so on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
trading was the part i loved most at diablo 2 lod lol .
anyone like minded here ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Lab Secrets
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can definetly swarm Niefel Jarls with skeletons. That is probably their greatest weakness, since they have a very high base encumbrance. They need 8 reinvigoration to avoid passing out over time when fighting lifeless troops, and this is very hard to come by. (Boots of the messsenger, rainbow armour, girdle of might will cover it.)

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Take a look here :
Dice Roll Statistics

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for digging up that great old thread by Cherry. I've added a direct link to it on my site's links page so that I and others won't lose it again. As I find other useful archived threads I'll add more links on my site. Suggestions are always welcome, BTW.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

Originally posted by Boron:
"cause i wanna e.g. figure out if i could "swarm" niefel jarls then with an undead horde or something similiar and how my odds are then."

No you did not want to figure that not out at all bad idea

Graeme Dice
" They need 8 reinvigoration to avoid passing out over time when fighting lifeless troops, and this is very hard to come by. (Boots of the messsenger, rainbow armour, girdle of might will cover it.) "

Earth 6 bless too
Pickles

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Sorry if Im breaking topic somewhat but someone mentioned soul vortex and a possible tactic struck me....maybe already mentioned in another thread, but....

Lif drain auras I have always put in my mind as purely offensive.... but it strikes me that if you slapped some fat creatures with lotsa HP on guard with your mage, he will reinvigorate off them and in all likelyhood you wont whack the creatures during the battle. makes bone armour look a touch tastier. I will have to test.

Spiro.

Re: Lab Secrets
 

I wouldn't use the Gate Cleaver in every situation, but if all you need is high damage (Sphinx, Iron Dragons, Monolith, Dude with Monolith Armor etc. high prot /low def critters) it seems to be the choice. I have never tested it in MP, though...

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An earth 6 blessing is 3 reinvigoration, earth 10 is 5. This isn't enough to cover their encumbrance without additional items.

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spirokeat --
Hm, maybe surround using buff regeneration creatures. You might still kill them once the fatigue reaches 200+ though and starts turning to physical damage, so it's not quite a substitute for Relief.

Bone armor can be spiffy if you have a creature with naturally high prot (Tartarian Cyclops and Titans come to mind; sillier, GoR'd Living Statue) or at least a decent prot by something like Boots of Stone (but then flight/quickness is hard). It also might go well with Amon Hotep, of course.