OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Go to Jibjab.com and listen to the song..if you have any interest in american politics at all

Frosted Flake

Edit: Changed the Title.

[ July 30, 2004, 00:08: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The ABC Evening News ran a piece on the brothers for their "Person of the Week" segment this past Friday. Which caused their servers to be flooded and inaccessible. Thanks for the reminder. Funniest thing I've seen on the Web in several years. Too bad the clip must be viewed from their site. I'd love to have a copy I can view offline.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

yeah it is great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
even for us europeans funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

it is a bit old now but i found this awesome funny too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
http://www.funnyheck.com/diplomacyfunny.html

oh and btw does anybody here like southpark too ?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I don't know, man. With those damn LIE-beral media we might see another DEMON-c-RAT KKKlinton as president.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoa. Put the 'ludes down.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah I sure wouldnt want to return to those comfortable times when my biggest concern was whether the prez lied about getting some on the side. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Between Bush and Arnold my life is MUCH more "interesting" on a daily basis now.

-- Now that sex is ok to talk about I guess the new social rule is that politics, religion, and operating systems are not topics for polite company.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Well Kerry has been boasting about providing healthcare for every citizen in America. That screams economic nightmare because the cost will be enormous....... and guess who's going to pay for it.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, healthcare costs a lot, but it costs a lot regardless of whether the government collects taxes to pay for it, or the people pay for it individually. There's also the fact that national healthcare systems such as the Canadian one provide the same services for 57% of the cost.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I'm not fond of the idea of paying healthcare and medication costs for the lazy people in the USA which just don't want to work or earn money decently. Government controlling our entire healthcare would do this.
Giving government even more power/control is not the answer.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you don't have a moral problem with not providing health care to everyone, and hence allowing them to suffer and die from preventable causes, then there's not much I could ever say to convince you otherwise.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess you have never tried both services personally. They are not at all comparable. Canadian health care sucks.

*IF* you can afford US health care it is far superior. Period.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not what I said... I will write with a different explanation.
Providing complete healthcare for all citizens will give more reasons for lazy people not to work and people doing illegal actions to continue.

As far as any moral problems... John Kerry is unapologetically pro-abortion. But as a Catholic, he is required to be personally opposed to the idea.

[ July 26, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sort of. Most people who choose to work aren't doing it for healthcare. They're doing it for the Plasma TV or the new car or, uh, food.

Creating a system to prevent the lowest levels of society from literaly dying in the gutter from lack of health insurance is IMO not likely to increase unemployment.

I'm not big on Federal Welfare programs et. al. myself, but I'd like to know that if I ever find myself on the bottom rung that I could still get an appendectomy free of charge.

[ July 26, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds nice from the offer... but take a look at the taxes for countries which do provide this service.
Another side effect would be hospitals and doctors offices even more busy then now. No longer will you be waiting an hour... expect three hours.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it really doesn't "suck". If you'd look at the most basic of statistics, you'd see that our mortality statistics are comparable or better than that of the U.S.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the problem. You can't simply ignore the people who can't afford it and then state that the system is superior. If you want your sample to be at all indicative of the actual state, then you must include even those people that can't afford proper healthcare.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is beside the point. The overall expenditure on health care per capita comes from the population of a country, regardless of whether it is collected through taxes or directly from the people.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is little more than FUD. Even without making an appointment, and while walking in to a very busy University medical centre, I have rarely waited even an hour to see a Dr., and certainly never anywhere close to three hours.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Higher Taxes is the point ! Many citizens as myself have a tough time making our house & utilities payments where we can't afford to give another $250.oo for some new healthcare plan which covers everyone in the USA. Why should we pay higher taxes for more government intervention. Let us as citizens pay for healthcare when we need the care.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Last time I went to the hospital for emergency care(E.R.) I waited an hour before seeing a doctor... and I was even marked with high priority. Not all hospitals are the same... and without a doubt the waiting time would increase no matter where you are.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This may be the case, but paying for your healthcare individually does have one very large benefit, especially because health care costs a lot: If you are healthy, you don't need any!

As opposed to the Canadian system, where you end up paying for somebody ELSE's problems. If it's not contagious, it's not my problem!

And the real reason health care costs so much *IS* because of things like "health insurance": It abstracts the payment for healthcare from the individual, who likely doesn't have that much money, and therefore, one cannot charge more than the typical customer can afford to pay, to a monolithic corporate or government entity with loose accountability and nearly bottomless pockets. There's a REASON why the government seems to pay so ridiculously much for things: because nobody really cares. To the average man on the street, what the government or a corporation spends on something is a statistic with little or no personal impact on him. When I was young, buying "health insurance" was something you had to do if you lived in an area with a strong mob presence.

Insurance is a big sham: How else would it even be profitable, unless they were obviously charging you more than they were paying out? Unless the Mafia is trying to sell you insurance, don't bother. Keep your money, it'll do you more good in your hands than someone else's.

The fact of the matter is that the healthcare system in both countries sucks in the same way for different reasons. In Canada, it's government-funded healthcare. Everyone gets it, including people who rightly couldn't afford it, and therefore don't really need it, and as a result, in some places, it can be too crowded with people getting unnecessary treatment. In the US, it's because of insurance companies and frivolous lawsuits, which has jacked up costs to the point where people who SHOULD be able to afford it, CAN'T anymore. The system sucks. Pick your flavor of suckage.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Even more importantly is John Kerry is going against his catholic religion which is a serious moral issue.
John Kerry is unapologetically pro-abortion... yet as a Catholic, he is required to be personally opposed to the idea.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most modern health care systems spend either less per person, or the same amount per person as the U.S. system, and achieve much better results. (The U.S. is 38th in the world for quality of health care.) While your taxes will increase to pay for a public health care system, your overall cost will only increase if you never contract a serious illness in your life.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And if you can't afford to pay, then we should just let you rot?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you have any evidence that the waiting time would increase? Since I doubt that you do, you can hardly say that it's "without a doubt".

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

As you are discussing this topics, can I ask the americans of this bord, a single thing: I never understand why things that are organized by the state are such a terrible thing?
As a society it is normal to help others when you aren't in need, as they will help you if you are, thats one of the most basic idea, and health or education belongs to this, why should someone not receive any help in such thing just because he hadn't the money? Sure they may be some who would profite of this but there aren't the majority, AND there are the others who had no chance in life, why punish them?
I never understand this point of view, but maybe it's just that I am a foolish european http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Skolem

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you show me that a sizable portion of the population will remain healthy for their entire life?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard you say. Do you seriously believe that a heart attack patient doesn't need treatment because they don't have tens of thousands of dollars in cash?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. Nobody remains healthy their entire lives. That's why people die, you see? Living forever is incredibly boring, anyway.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, excuse me if I don't come from the new, modern "must have it even if I can't afford it" culture that Zen informs me is increasingly pervasive. In *MY* day, if you couldn't afford something, you got a nice lesson in something we called "Learning To Do Without". Hell, in my day, people had heart attacks just *DIED* most of the time, even if you did try to blow a wad of cash on treatment. So you'll understand if I'm skeptical that somebody really *NEEDS* these things. We didn't have them in my day, and people managed anyway! Funny, how that works, yes? Sure, some of them died, but as you can clearly see, we managed. You're just spoiled and squeamish. Learn to accept that death is a natural part of life, and when stuff like this happens that you, obviously, couldn't be bothered to prepare for, you obviously didn't think it was important to do so, so you accept the consequences. What happened to personal responsibility? It's quite simple: If you can't be bothered to prepare for these things, you deserve it. If none of your friends will help you either, obviously, you're not important enough to the world, or even yourself, that somebody else should be shouldering what should have been YOUR responsibility. Learn to accept the consequences of your actions and inactions. Maybe if you hadn't blown all your cash on some useless doohickey or a new car, you wouldn't be too broke to afford medical treatment.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's wrong... take a look at how much switzerland is paying for this government healthcare. Another bad reason for government healthcare is we would never be able to go back.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And if you can't afford to pay, then we should just let you rot?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what you're suggesting is why just stop at U.S citizens?? Lets provide a Universal HealthCare for all countries including illegal aliens within our own. We can't just let them rot either... right?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lets see... there are millions without any healthcare which would be going to the hospitals if they could... whether or not its needed.
Currently X amount of people are going to the hospitals everyday.
With a government healthcare it would be X amount of people going to the hospitals PLUS Y amount of people also going which couldn't afford this before. Less beds/rooms available... less medical supplies... because of Y amount of people also going.

Example=
Will people start giving more blood with the new healthcare system to help provide the supplies needed for Y amount of people?? Take a guess!

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Is it really relaxing, to be say 20 year old and working to put some money back for the case you have a leg broken , for the case you must go to the dentist, maybe because you want your children (say in ten years)to go do the university, or simply to be sure that even if he fellt ill you can afford a doctor, or etc... Is it really a feeling of freedom or is it just fear of the future because something could happen. I'm sure I don't want to live with that feeling, but as you seem to live with it, I just want you to ask if it enhance your happiness, your quality of life?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for admitting that your statement that you save money with private healthcare was incorrect.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're still alive, and I doubt that you are more than 20 years old given your demonstrated maturity level and amount of free time. The here and now is "*YOUR* day".

I've snipped the rest of your meandering bull**** where you demonstrate, once again, that you are barely a member of humanity thanks to your complete lack of empathy.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why don't you take a look at Canada, where better health care than what is available in the U.S. (30th in the world vs. 38th), costs 57% as much per person.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would you want to go back?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If they pay American taxes, or are U.S. citizens, then the American government should support them. Your strawman about other countries is meaningless, since they are not U.S. taxpayers or citizens.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is unarguably good.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is complete and utter bull****. Doctors are perfectly capable of not spending money on people that don't need treatment. People, even the poor who you seem to despise, despite claiming to be a member of the lower class, have ethics. People don't purposefully

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't believe that you are seriously making an argument that it's a _good_ thing that people are going without medical treatment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't have to guess. The blood supply in Canada is completely voluntary, Canadian Blood Services is a government agency that is responsible for collecting blood, and guess what, we have adequate, though sometimes low blood supplies just like the U.S.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What does religion have to do with being a good president? You don't need to be religious to have decent moral values (in fact, many "bad" people tend to have some religious background. Suizide bombers who claim its for their god, paedophilic priests...).

I am a catholic, so I am not allowed to have an oppinion other than that of the pope?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are catholic and from Mainz, you have no right to have an opinion that is different from the pope (sadly me to) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Alright everyone check out JibJab for their personal amusement.

Thread over.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious: can you tell me where you got those statistics from (meaning the health care world ranking and cost stats). Do you have a link? I'd love to check that out.

Thanks!

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

no hospital in the United States can turn away a patient in need. go to the emergency room in any hospital and the indigent poor receive treatment that the hospital knows will never be paid for- thats a fact. Yes the rich get better health care but if you think that isnt true everywhere ..well I have a bridge to sell you.
As for Mr. Kerry we have this thing called seperation of church and state and no religious group can tell there members how to vote. If Catholic leaders withhold the sacraments from politicians they dont like, which they can do, the government can take away their tax exempt status http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Frosted Flake

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What does religion have to do with being a good president? You don't need to be religious to have decent moral values (in fact, many "bad" people tend to have some religious background. Suizide bombers who claim its for their god, paedophilic priests...).

I am a catholic, so I am not allowed to have an oppinion other than that of the pope? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem is not one of religion. What John Kerry is doing, is claiming that he is Catholic, in order to appeal to Catholics/Christians, but then votes for something that is very high on the Catholic no no list. He wants to have it both ways, and that is what people are taking issue with. Actually, John Kerry has been quoted as saying he is personally against abortion, but he would never push his personal views on anyone. So he votes in favor of abortion whenever it comes up. I'm not saying every Catholic has to believe in everything the church says, but don't pander for a congregations vote, then vote against them on one of their most heated issues.

Vig

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ever consider that what Kerry is doing is claiming that he's Catholic because ... he's bloody Catholic? Catholicism isn't exactly the ticket to getting elected in the USA - there's been exactly one Catholic president thus far. Percentage-wise, Catholics are one of the smallest Xian denominations in this country - if he was claiming a religion in order to get elected, he'd claim dumb-**** Southern Baptism, or whatever the current traitor to his country (Bush) is.

Remember, this is America, where the Catholics take what the Pope says with a grain of salt. In fact - this is true with a lot of the world. My girlfriend lives in a heavily Catholic country in South America and is Catholic. Much to my surprise - no, not even the latin american countries go along with the Pope on matters of birth control, pre-marital sex, or *gasp* abortions.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The cost is from a CBC article:
Canadian health care quality comparable to other rich countries

It looks like the most recent ranking actually places the U.S. at 37th.

The report is very long, but a summary and a link to the rest of the information, can be found here:
The World Health Report 2004

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's because our government has had a recent (Last 30, 40 years) tendency to horribly waste the taxpayer money when it gets involved. At least - that's why the guy on the street distrusts government getting involved.

(This ignores the fact that big government in the USA has done some _GREAT_ things, if you go back to, say, Roosevelt's time.)

More importantly, right now the current administration believes that what's good for the rich, what's good for the corporations, is good for America. Baby Bush and the other Bushes never met a rich person they didn't like, except for Saddam and Democrats.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A lot of Americans don't like having to depend on the gov't for anything. While some things are necessary, like defense, people take issue with others. Americans don't like the gov't having too much power over them, and creating huge beurocracies that govern important things like healthcare or social security, is viewed by some as too much. The two idealogies are 1)the gov't should provide, and 2)the private sector can do better. The main difference to me is that if the gov't provides, your taxes are greater, and your service sub par. If the private sector provides, you are at the mercy of the current market, but you have more personal wealth to enrich yourself. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the average western European pays like 50 to 60 percent of his income in taxes, in order to pay for all the socialized services. In America, it's like 20 to 30 percent I think. Keep in mind that we are still paying for socilized services like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Securtiy, Welfare etc., but they aren't as broad or general as Europes. Instead the idea is that you have more to spend, and hopefully save or invest for the things you need. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of Americans who want to be just like Europe, I'm just giving my personal perspective.

Personally, I think gov't empowering it's citizens economically is the best solution. I've never seen anyone happy with the return they get from Social Security, nor with the care they get from Medicare. The investments they made into these systems have horrible returns, usually nowhere near what you put into it.

Vig

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I would think that US politics would be easy for space gamers to understand.
Under the democrats we would become the federation.
Under the republicans we would become the ferrengi.

[ July 26, 2004, 22:35: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

It's important to note that the opposite of anti-abortion is not necessarily pro-abortion. It's pro-choice.

One may disapprove of abortion but still believe that private citizens have a right to choose what's is best for them. Which I believe is Kerry's stance. And probably the most libertarian approach.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Precisely what is fundamentally wrong about being a Catholic (or Republican): having other people doing your thinking for you (be it the Pope, or in the case of Republicans, some self-appointed, demagogic, hypocritical arbiter of morality and social values).

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well said.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You or myself have no idea what method of complete healthcare will be placed and the overall outcome... Canadian style or something. Personally I view it as not worth the risk for raising my taxes on something which may be better for the USA. This gamble is not worth the risk.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would you want to go back?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Paying less taxes and giving people reasons for not being lazy. Like many others I choose to decide how my money is spent and give as little to the government as possible. And if our government makes a huge financial mistake with trying to provide healthcare for everyone it could easily do great damage to our economy and no way to go back.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Earlier you were saying the moral thing to do is help everyone... now you're saying only those which are american citizens. I don't believe our government has the wisdom to provide an effective healthcare system for everyone since it cannot even handle the growing national debt.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't quote partial/incomplete sentences... which miss the main point. I could easily use the same quote for if the U.S. was to give a Universal Healthcare for all nations.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are thousands which abuse the generosity from America and other governments. Example= My cousin helped a woman move groceries which used food stamps. The groceries were going into a shiny expensive BMW. Despite your mind reading beliefs... I have no ill thoughts to those less fortunate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And thus I ask again... why not have the USA provide a Universal Healthcare for all nations!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not like the U.S. has doctors and nurses just sitting around bored. Heck it takes me 5 months before I can make my next doctors appointment after each visit... any cancelation means waiting another 5 months. The taxes could be as high as what switzerland is paying or may not be.... but not worth the gamble.

[ July 26, 2004, 23:47: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Untrue. I generally eschew unnecessary treatments. After all, I have to pay for this crap out of my own pocket, and if I feel fine, I don't need healthcare. The problem with even more nationalized healthcare is the extremely galling notion that somebody, somewhere, who I couldn't give a rat's *** about, is wasting my money on frivolous treatment for diseases and injuries that *I* would have simply ignored! Ignore it, and it will go away...one way or another. This saves me a lot of money! If you didn't live in a nanny-state, you could try this! Have some sort of problem? Ignore it! The human body is surprisingly resilient and often self-repairing, provided you allow it to do so, rather than crippling its ability to cope by seeking unnecessary treatment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd be surprised how much free-time you get once you're retired...which is, after all, the entire point of being retired.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Barely, eh? So I still qualify. Good to hear. Complete lack of empathy, eh? Not so. I simply can't bring myself to feel sorry for miserable slackers who can't be bothered to take responsibility for even themselves. You don't see me expecting you to pay for MY healthcare, and I suspect I'll have need of this sooner than you will....but I planned this. If I can't afford it, well, I'll just die. Dying's cheaper, anyway. Why's this such a problem? People these days have such an annoying hang-up about the concept of dying, as if they were somehow entitled to live forever, long after you, yourself, are incapable of supporting your own existence. News for you: Nobody lives forever. If you can't afford to even support your own continued existence, why should I be compelled to do so? If you want charity, you can always take up e-begging. I hear electronic panhandling is all the rage these days. But you know what? Beggars at least earn their handouts honestly, taking them from the people who want to give to them. Can't fault them for that.

[ July 26, 2004, 23:24: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

dp

[ July 26, 2004, 23:25: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since you are such a big supporter of all things Republican, I find it most hypocritical that you should cite the rising national debt, something that has traditionally exploded under Republican administrations (Reagan, Bush Sr., Bush Jr.) that are staunch believers in deficit spending and letting future generations worry about the problems caused by their populist policies of tax breaks (for rich people & corporations) and warmongering.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol vigabrand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OECD figures for 1999, which measure total tax burden as a percentage of total economic output, have the US at 14.2%. Sweden is the second highest, at 21.7%, but Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Greece, Japan... all have lower overall tax burdens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

and yet, somehow, they all manage to have universal health care. who'd a thunk it.

http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/Intern...omparisons.pdf

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Your answer Arch is the US milatary. It consumes alot of money (not saying that its a good thing just a fact). As for Arryn thinking all Republicans thinking alike where did that come from? I am a conservative Republican...I believe in balanced budgets,conserving the environment,preserving our country's (and the world's) freedoms. I want to know how the biblethumping southern democrats took over my party? I also want to know how middle America can back Bush after Iraq. Bush,Cheney,Rumsfield and the idiots who authorized torture in iraq have sullied the honor of the world's finest milatary..in the name of expediency.

frosted flake

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I'm not very adept at using the quote system here, so please be patient, but I've gotta step in on the Catholic stuff here. Without trying to pour gas on the fire, let me just point out a couple of misplaced arguments...

There is a sense in these postings that it is expected that Catholics are required to blindly follow and believe in exactly what the Holy See (ie - the Pope and Vatican City) says. I have to take exception to that. Yes, there is an expectation to follow scripture, tradition, and canon law. My exception is in the thought that it is happening "blindly". The church strongly encourages study to promote understading the "why's" and "how's" of the belief system. It's not the fault of the church if people jump on or off the bandwagon with no knowledge of why they're doing something.

But going on with the topic of following the Popes commands and teachings - a person either agrees with and follows the Catholic faith or they don't. No one is being FORCED to do anything. But if a person claims to be Catholic, they agree to follow its precepts. And there is concern in the Catholic church currently regarding people taking a "pick and choose" mentality toward which teachings they agree to follow and which they don't.

True - Mankind has judgement and freewill (speaking on the whole, not politically) and not everyone agrees with everything the Pope says. But if a person does not follow the teachings of canon law and the Catholic faith, then, by the church's standards, that person is not living a Catholic life.

Before someone gets offended, I'm NOT making an arguement for whether or not Catholicism is "correct", I'm NOT saying non-Catholics are bad people, and I'm NOT equating morality with Catholicism. There are very good and moral people who disagree with certain Catholic teachings. But my point is that by claiming to be a Catholic, a person is saying that he follows Catholic teachings and holds Catholic values.

Sure, it's possible to disagree with the Holy See - that's how Protestantism and it's various denominations came about. Martin Luther was a Catholic who disagreed with some of the views so he created his own church to meet his value needs. John Calvin and Joseph Smith did the same thing. They didn't agree with what they were being taught, so they broke away on their own. The point being - if someone disagrees with the Catholic church, why would they WANT to associate themselves with it and continue to name themselves as Catholic? It's not possible to HONESTLY say "I'm a Catholic....except for the parts about abortion, sex, and marriage".

To make what is probably a bad analogy - it's like saying "I'm a baseball player. But I don't like having three bases, so I just play with two and ignore the third one. And I disagree with three strikes being an out, so I'll just have the pitcher keep pitching until the batter get 7 strikes." At that point, you're not playing baseball, you're just playing your own game.

[ July 26, 2004, 23:56: Message edited by: daesthai ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I concur. Isn't the entire point of being a member of said religion that you share that religion's beliefs? Because if you don't, obviously, you're not really a member....unless you somehow just like having the label for whatever benefit you can gain from it, without having to actually be bound by the obligations of said title. I suspect the only real claim some of them have to being "Catholic" is starting out born that way. For instance, I tend to completely disagree with many Catholic views. Thus, I am not a member, and do not claim to be one.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Thanks Norfleet. You were able to state a bit more concisely the point I was trying to make.