fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

does this mean the fire bless lvl 9 user gets +8 damage and armor piercing on his attacks ?

or something different ?

and do weapon of sharpness give ap or an attacks ?
iirc ap

resistences stack up so does ap from fire blessing + ap from weapons of sharpness stack up to armor negating ?

furthermore the lance attack is described ap so does he stack up to an with fire bless ?

[ July 31, 2004, 01:17: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I understand the mechanism correctly, the primary weapon gets an additional 8 fire damage, armour piercing attack added everytime it hits. The weapon is also made magical.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Weapons of Sharpness makes the targets weapons armour piercing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Armour piercing doesn't "stack" at all. Your weapons are either normal, armour piercing, or armour negating. What weapons of sharpness will do is make the normal, physical part of the damage armour piercing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lances are not armour piercing. The AP acronym stands for action points. Lance damage is dependent on the amount of action points that the unit has at some unknown point during its turn.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+4 attack, +8 ap fire damage

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ap

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ap + ap != an

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no, see answer above

[ July 28, 2004, 17:22: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

umm, as i understand it, the 8 damage AP attack is resolved separately from the normal damage attack; ie. they do not add together.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm, I think it does. How else could fire 9 tuatha kill ulmish infantry so easily?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AFAIK, you are correct.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You underestimate AP damage. Especially with +4 to attack.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

thnx for the efforts graeme dice , arryn and archaeolept .

i am confused so now . arryn you said ap + ap add up to an while graeme said it stays ap .

so i make 2 examples please say me then whats the correct result .
i think then i will understand it hopefully totally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

example 1 : you equip your sc with a ap weapon like a fire brand . so if you cast weapon of sharpness on your sc does it then change to an as arryn said or stay ap as graeme said ?

variant : when somebody is fatigued you have a chance on ap attacks . if you already have ap does that stack up to an too ?

example 2 : lets say a marignon player takes fire 9 bless . he blesses knights of the chalice .

i only want to know the lance attack + the broad sword attack the hoof attack is quite irrelevant .

his enemy has a 30 protection unit .

do the knights of the chalices kill the 30 protection unit or barely scratch it ?

with the broad sword :
according to saber cherry's cool charts without ap damage it would be the following :
avg. hit damage : 0.754
so not too dangerous .

would the total weapon be ap :
11.1 avg damage

so quite deadly

the knights of the chalice have 17 att with fire bless . because they swarm the poor sc he will get a bit defence loss and at least the Last ones some hit him .
more than 25 defence is very hard to reach for most not ultrawell equipped sc's i think .
even with 25 defense : if 6 knights attack the Last one gets +6 because the defence is reduced by 6 for swarming .
so he has 37.605% hitting odd .
so if damage is variant 2 the knights can probably kill the poor sc at not too bad odds .

how many knights can swarm a sc all in all in one combat turn ?

is there a formula at maximum e.g. x size 1 , y size 2 ... units can attack a sc per combat round ?
that you can figure out what the worst defence penalty might be when swarmed by something ?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What kind of Ulmish infantry? The basic ones have 20 protection or less, and with armour piercing damage, that gets reduced to 10 protection or less. 8 damage will go through an armour of 10 fairly easily.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "!=" symbol means "not equal to".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The number of units that can fit in a single grid square (press 'g' to see these) is equal to 6 divided by their size. You can put 6 size one units, or one size 6 unit, or two size 3 units, or a single size 4 unit with 2 size one units in a single grid square. There are eight grid squares surrounding each single grid square. Since cavalry is size 3, you can have 16 knights around a single SC.

[ July 28, 2004, 19:11: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is correct, I recall reading dev's post that said something along this lines long time ago, if I rember correctly.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "!=" symbol means "not equal to".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">oh didn't know that symbol . !
=
this smybol means btw should be afaik i know so i thought arryn means that one lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is correct, I recall reading dev's post that said something along this lines long time ago, if I rember correctly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm is that then an additional damage roll with 8ap fire bless damage +2d6 oe ?
that would make sense .
if it only does 8 ap damage though it couldn't damage a 16+ protection unit .

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx . how is that with skeletons and other fodder ? they are size 2 so there could be 24 skelletons around a sc .
if the sc has a fire shield he will kill many skeletons so more than 24 can attack him in 1 combat turn . so if they attack a 20 def unit every skeleton after the 20th should have to make a attack roll againt 0 defensive or do they even cumulate up to negative amounts ?

hmmmmmmmm so a skelleton horde enchanced with weapons of sharpness could have a high chance killing a melee sc ?
hmmmmmmmmmm did anyone ever try this strat out with pangenea ?
pans casting weapons of sharpness on a horde of maenards ^^
that could be pretty scary or ?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is correct, I recall reading dev's post that said something along this lines long time ago, if I rember correctly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm is that then an additional damage roll with 8ap fire bless damage +2d6 oe ?
that would make sense .
if it only does 8 ap damage though it couldn't damage a 16+ protection unit .

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably, although the devs didn't specify the open-endenenss of this, IIRC, but that would make sense in the global picture. And keep in mind that it is AP damage, that makes a big difference.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is correct, I recall reading dev's post that said something along this lines long time ago, if I rember correctly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm is that then an additional damage roll with 8ap fire bless damage +2d6 oe ?
that would make sense .
if it only does 8 ap damage though it couldn't damage a 16+ protection unit .

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably, although the devs didn't specify the open-endenenss of this, IIRC, but that would make sense in the global picture. And keep in mind that it is AP damage, that makes a big difference. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">do you remember how that is with flaming arrows ?
cause there you get +8 ap flaming damage too so it would make sense if it works the same way .

finally i remember once having found a 4 provinces map but i don't find it anymore and now i wanted to download it to sandbox test it for my own http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif perhaps that map was for dominion 1 but if someone has a link to it plz post it here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is correct, I recall reading dev's post that said something along this lines long time ago, if I rember correctly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm is that then an additional damage roll with 8ap fire bless damage +2d6 oe ?
that would make sense .
if it only does 8 ap damage though it couldn't damage a 16+ protection unit .

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably, although the devs didn't specify the open-endenenss of this, IIRC, but that would make sense in the global picture. And keep in mind that it is AP damage, that makes a big difference. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">do you remember how that is with flaming arrows ?
cause there you get +8 ap flaming damage too so it would make sense if it works the same way .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, Flaming Arrows gives the same "flame weapons" effect to archers as fire blessing to the blessed trops. So in effect each arrow strike twice, the 2nd time it is AP. That's why it is so deadly.

Also according to Sunray's guide, at this moment fire immunity does not protect you against "flame" part of "flaming arrows" damage due to the bug. Although I did not test it personally, so I can't really confirm or deny this Last fact.

[ July 28, 2004, 22:46: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

thnx stormbinder .
finally a new similiar question i forgot :
does weapons of sharpness make weapons magic too ?

there just all weapons become ap nothing more nothing less right ?
do all weapons get ap what with uncommon weapons like claws or the stinger attack from a scorpion king and similiar ?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

oh is strength added to the extra 8 ap fire weapons attack ?
is it perhaps added for flaming arrow attack too ? this would be a bug then

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, no, and yes (it'd be a bug).

[ July 29, 2004, 09:44: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yikes, I didnt know that! Really? Anyone know about this? That sounds really pretty awful to me, but perhaps explains some things....

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm you are right . i had in mind especially following scenario : ulm vs marignon .

ulm can produce their black knights everywhere and marignon can only produce their knights of the chalice in the capitol .
so they are limited to 2-3 resourcewise / turn even lategame .

that way you should be able as ulm to get a 2:1 ratio black knights against knights of the chalice .

what i hadn't in mind is that the knights of the chalice are very superior to ulmish black knights .
the ulmish black knight has 24 protection so the avg. damage from a knight of the chalice hit is reduced to 0.754 hp .

but now comes the big fault in my model . i did only look at this aspect but it works the other way round too .
a knight of ulm has very inferior att/def Ratings to a blessed knight of the chalice .
so he hits rarely . because he has no ap damage the 20 protection of the knight of the chalice reduce ulms morning star attack to 1.67 avg damage too but fatigue left out 2 knights of ulm have following attack success odds : 1 knight 37.605% , 2 knight 45.773% .
the knight of the chalice has 93.822% hitting odd .

although in theory after turn 10-15 you should be able to field 2 knights of ulm against 1 knight of the chalice even then they have a not too easy time to defeat him.
taken into account that marignon will have x-bows with flaming arrows then and some wizards doing fire spells while ulm can only counter most likely with blade winds ( useless against knights of the chalice ) and their weaker arlabest-bows ulm has bad odds .

but in midgame once ulm reached weapons of sharpness the odds should change in favour to the mass produceable knights of ulm .

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it only makes them pierce armour.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure that it would make all weapons armour piercing.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, no, and yes (it'd be a bug). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ah thnx cool

so a protection of 20 makes you quite save against every fire bless unit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

avg damage is 1.29 with prot 20 against fire bless attack according to saber cherry's dice odds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

against broad sword attack : it does 18 dam but not ap .
prot 20 against that : also 1.29 avg damage .

so if you know your enemy has f9 blessing field 20+ protection units and you are quite save .

so especially nations like ulm should have no problems with f9 bless early game , and sc's , but everything else .

conclusion : if you face f9 blessing to be save early game you need prot 20+ units .
otherwise you need at least a 3 times bigger army i think and will get heavy casualities .

please confirm my conclusion or correct the flaws in it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Quite safe" is not quite the way I think about it. 1.29 is the statistically average damage, not something I'd personally rely upon. Also, those 20 prot elite Ulms don't have a lot of HPs, so it won't take all that many average hits to kill them, especially since defense drops as units take damage and fatigue. Swarm (outnumber) those Ulms with fire-blessed troops and they'll die rather distressingly quickly.

Of course, those Ulms are going to be methodically chopping up your units during the battle, but that's why you'll be outnumbering them. Going one-on-one (or one-on-many) against high-prot Ulms is not advised unless you are using SCs or Jotuns. And attacking Ulms at less than 6:1 is not something I do with non-Jotuns if I can help it.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

Question to put into the mix. If the spell Mass Protection (or just Protection) is used, does it simply add to the defense rating? Does it then get ignored by armor piercing weapons? Or does it provide a bit of protection?

I am guessing it is a simple addition to the defense rating, but the combat model is pretty deep and I could be wrong. No matter what, this is a neat discussion and opens my eyes to more uses of armor piercing than I had considered before.

An earlier poster had asked about swarms of maenads with Weapons of Sharpness. Throw Mass Protection on that swarm and you have a truly frightening force! They hit hard, do not lose to many units and those losses are recovered quickly. Sure, there are lots of ways to stop them, but they are something your opponent will have to worry about.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It provides "Barkskin" to all friendly units on the battlefield (page 85 of the manual). That means units get protection of 10 if they have less than protection 10, or they get +1 additional protection if they are already at protection of 10 or higher.

AP weapons would cut that protection of 10 (or more) in half. Remember, there are "armor-piercing" (halved protection) and "armor-negating" (zeroed protection) weapons. Do not confuse which is which. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it only makes them pierce armour.

Quote:

do all weapons get ap what with uncommon weapons like claws or the stinger attack from a scorpion king and similiar ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm pretty sure that it would make all weapons armour piercing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx for the answers .

first an addition to my vq theorie :
how do the spells mistform , air shield and mirror image help the surviveability of the vq against mass x-bows with flaming arrows ?

ok so new questions . i thought weapons get magic too by casting weapons of sharpness . as they don't i would need that otherwise etheralness is too evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

is there any spell , preferable either battle enchantment or large area effect which makes weapons of common troops magic ?
is there any other method than either fire bless or flaming arrows to make a weapon magic ?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mistform won't help, sinnce flaming arrows are magical. Mirror image will reduce the hits untl the VQ herself gets hit. Air shield will make 80% of missiles miss.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have to equip a magical weapon on a commander, or use a national troop type that comes with a magical weapon.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

found something new from you greame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
i so far thought protection helps against missile attacks .
that you wrote in the manual addenda though :
6.3.2.1 Shield Protection from Missiles

Shield benefit against missile weapons: It's based on the shield's defense stat. It works like: 2d6oe > (2d6oe + shield defense) if I remember correctly

... and then ...

A unit's defense does not matter when being attacked by an arrow. The attack roll on the projectile is 10+2d6, while the victim's roll is 10+shield defense modifier+2d6. A tower shield for example has a defense modifier of 4.

... and then ...

Precision just determines which square the projectile will hit

[Graeme Dice]

that would be declare why from your expierience flaming arrows x-bows kill sc's pretty good while i put up so low avg. damage .
with protection expect from shield ignored that would declare it .
now i clutch on straws :
you wrote if i remember correctly .

so plz confirm that then i will make a new check which will agree with your expierience more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
and try to find countermeasures for that too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The protection from all sources is used against missiles. This includes that from shields.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is referring to the chance to actually hit the target when the missile lands in its square. The unit's defense from armour and combat ability don't matter, but the defense from shields does.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mistform won't help, sinnce flaming arrows are magical. Mirror image will reduce the hits untl the VQ herself gets hit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...and damaged. Otherwise MI will remain in place.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

ok so new try :

lets assume the vq has a lucky coin shield . at least with pythium , one of my 4 favourite vq nations this is easy to achieve .

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i don't understand for what the first part is so i only take second part (marked bold) into account :

again against marignon because they seem to be the nation for which flaming arrows especially was designed for . machaka are natural flaming arrow user too but their archers are weaker than the mari x-bows ( no ap on basic missile attack ).

so here we go :
a lucky coin has def 3 , that is +3 .
so hitting odds : 30.165% of the missiles hit .

the highest def shield is shield of the accursed with def 7 .
there hitting odds would be only :10.802%

now various questions to that :
when and how do come air shield + luck in account in that calculations ?

hm remembering my poor knowlegde from school mathematics the sequence shouldn't matter .

so with def 3 through shield already 70% of the missiles are canceled . 30% hit . this is halved through luck . 15% hit . an vq has most likely 2-3 air magic . so the air shield strength is 20 or 30 % according to liga's manual addenda .
so final hit probabilities :
air 2 : 12 %
air 3 : 10,5%

not taken into account that some arrows will furthermore fail the precision throw .

you said to find out damage full protection value is taken into account . so final results again :

avg. damage by 10 ap normal x-bow attack on prot
30 :
0.570

avg. damage by 8 ap fire bless x-bow attack on prot 30 :
0.321
.

the standard ap attack of the x-bow has slightly higher avg. damage . but isn't considered magic .
so etheralness should cancel 75% more of the hits . so hittings odds are : 3% with air 2 airshield , 2,625% with air 3 shield .

so now 100 x-bows with flaming arrows should do the following avg. damage to a vq according to my model :
on air 2 airshield :
3% hits with standard ap attack :
3x0,57 damage = 1,71 damage
12% hits with fire bless ap attack :
so 12x0,321 damage = 3,852 damage .

so modest 5,562 avg. damage .

this is almost healed by the regeneration of the vq itself already .


so add 3 F3 grand masters hitting the vq with holy pyre :
holy pyre does (7+2)x3 ap damage .

that are 27 ap damage against 15 protection :
12.07 avg. damage .

so plz correct any flaws in my small model.
but holy pyre seems powerful so could it be possible that the vq in the battles you have in mind was killed mainly by holy pyre or wither bones and not by x-bows with flaming arrows themselves graeme dice ?

from my statistical knowlegde i know that outliers are very rare in such dice models .
so 5,562 avg. damage means that a range of something like 0-15 avg. damage then will cover 99+% of the cases and the needed ~30-40 damage to kill a vq would be very rare .

from my expierience so far the greatest early game danger for a vq lies in caelum storm guards catching her unbuffed on the first turn of combat . early - mid game a great danger for a non lightning immune vq are the otherwise quite modest storm hawks .

because a robe of invulnerability is extremely expensive a vq has to rely on casting invulnerability . so the first 1-2 combat rounds are crucial for the vq .
if you have boots of quickness than without worrying you can put cast invulnerability on number 1 of the buff list .
still if you are the attacker which will more often be the case first combat round goes to your opponent .
so when fighting against caelum because of swarming 10-15 storm guard will kill your vq almost always .
you can put a black steel full plate on her but the plate has a high encumberance of 5 .
iirc this is doubled for spell casting purposes .
so +50 fatigue for 5 buffs .
at the moment i prefer as cheap vq armor a copper plate because of 100% lightning immunity .

avg damage of a storm guard against 11 / 19 prot : 2.67 / 0.239

for a iceclad : 3.99 / 0.570

important to notice : even the poorest spire horn warrior has an ice lance ( magic weapon ) and even a 1 higher strength than a storm guard .
so even 30 spire horn warriors with gold 10 / resource 6 costs , the pd main troop is exactly that because of swarming the Last 10 will have a 90+% hit probability .
so they have very high chance to do at least about 10 damage to a ~15 prot vq in the first combat round and 100 + to a 0-5 prot vq .
so even caelum pd of 20 has high odds killing a unequipped vq and caelum fliers can at least disturb vq for 2-3 turns , long enough until heavier troops like mammoths or non flying thugs to finish her arrive .

so a vq should have great problems against caelum until equipped with one of the high protection unique armors or a very hard to forge robe of invulnerability .

final additional thought :
although elsewise not very costeffective too nasty vq thugs will be angelic host or draconians .
lategame iron dragons should do wonders too .
gargoyles should be unable to hit a vq with their poor att of 10 + size 4 . so only 8 can sourround a vq and even the 8th gargolye gets only -7 defense for vq through swarm .

all flying demons should do great against vq .


so vq without robe of invulnerability should do bad against skilled enemies if she needs to attack because they have the first turn and get her with attack fliers orders .

you could take a supporter with the vq carrying a staff of storms . but that supporter won't survive many battles .

so your best deal is to take your own fliers with the vq .
only a few nations shine there though :
caelum , abysia , mictlan
to a lesser extent marignon df , vanheim , bf ulm , jotunheim .

cheapest way and available from start only for caelum ( and valkieries of vanheim but they are expensive + holy ) .
perhaps thats the main reason that norfleet likes caelum afaik http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

a small additional question :
in general 5 units set on guard help against assasinations .

if i simply send e.g. 50 devils on guard vq if someone would try to assasinate her are still 5 devils chosen to protect her ?

if answer is no than what with this variant :

45 devils on guard commander , second squad with 5 devils on guard commander .

is then the second squad chosen for guard through assasination ?

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It doesn't.

[quote] so the air shield strength is 20 or 30 % according to liga's manual addenda .

The air shield spell is always 80% effective.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not talking about a vampire queen. I'm talking about niefel giants against longdead archers.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course.

Re: fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not talking about a vampire queen. I'm talking about niefel giants against longdead archers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm a niefel giant is only a unit and has 15 prot . a banefire archer has a natural 10 ap weapon . so you should do 3.99 avg. damage per hit according to saber cherry's statistics too .

there i fully agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

even if you meant niefel jarls instead of niefel giants they have starting protection of 15 too + no earth / air magic so bringing them up to 25+ protection needed to be quite safe is a difficult task too . you have no access to earth magic via your national magicians + no starting earth income . so you would need your pretender to forge late early game black steel full plates .
given their high encumberance + that you should have more important uses for your pretender than this hard to get niefel jarls higher than 20 protection early-midgame .
with 20 protection according to saber cherry's dice odds you still suffer 2.13 avg damage .

because any x-bow has ap 10 damage any x-bow will be a great threat to niefel jarls early - midgame at least .

niefel jarls should excel at sc 1on1 killers with an-weapons .
but how can you protect them cheap + efficient with your national mages early-midgame ?
if you need your pretender for that would be not so good .


how do you defend midgame against a mictlan vq attack with devil or vampire horde ?